Actually I regretted not to post my question earlier, it is a project that I have written through yesterday night, if you don't mind, maybe you can look through it, I will attach my question together, it is based on my understanding of Proton through what is being publish on the internet and newspaper articles. Anyway, my e-mail is ithinkslim@yahoo.com. BTW, it is kinda last minute work.

a. Post your Email here so that I can send relevant info for you which I believe is of beneficial to you. For academic field, always be FOCUS and just use relevant info to do your dissertation. What is important is my info is just "additional/top-up" as it is unpublished material. Main info and proper quotes (e.g. Footnote, numerical, Harvard System) should always refers to published sources like text books, journal publications, conference papers, etc.

b. What is your Aims, Objectives, Methodology, Hypothesis (if any) or Scope of Study/Limitations.

c. I may suggest that your content of study (literature review) also constitute PEST (Political/Legal, Economics, Social and Technology factors) on Macro issues/environment issues and SWOT (Strength and Weakness, Opportunity and Threat) analysis on Micro issues – Proton.

d. I supervise students before in their final year dissertation project as part of academic requirement, so I can and have the confident to say to you that I can help you in this matter.

e. I have the necessary materials and info including how to make proper referencing/ how to quote which I believe can help you to achieve your academic excellency.

f. If you don't mine, let me have info on your dissertation before I can give further ideas so as to ensure it is more objective.

Regards,

Just check with my lecturer, my question will more towards the impact of economic integration that will have an impact on Proton company's policies and decision making. And I am not too sure about how AFTA, ASEAN or even APEC that have change any Proton policies or have they decided to take certain action other that reducing prices in facing such an economic integration. Joe, maybe you will have some ideas.

April 17, 2006 @ 11:15 am

Joe

thats how car is taxed under NAP not under US/UK tax regime.

Joe Ooi – Conclusions is NAP is sucking blood @ hisap darah!

Where is Matthew Seleigh? Waiting for your reply! If you come in with this kind of "avalanche of shit comments" including disrespect to Brits, and if I am Brits, I will give you a "bloody nose".

thats how car is taxed under NAP not under US/UK tax regime.

NeedGoodCar

Biggie are not related to anyone in this forum.

do you know that Proton Wira before tax is only 35K? And to import electronic goods you need to get an AP. We export electronic parts so how can we impose taxes on parts that we export in the 1st place.

I say :

Did i ever mention import of electronic goods? What i tried 2 say was if the electrical home appliance industry is to operate like the car industry where heavy taxes r imposed on NON-BOLEHLAND brands. Making NON-BOLEHLAND brands very much expensive than BOLEHLAND brands.

Biggie say:

Look inside Sony radio, many parts is Made in M’sia.

I say:

Actually who care about where these parts are made? As long as they r parts made meeting international quality and standards.

Biggie say:

btw rising sun 29 tv at rm1500 but bolehland tv can be bought at rm799. china made is cheaper ar rm599. Don’t you think there is some tax hidden somewhere?

I say:

Exactly.

RisingSun brands (Made in Bolehland also) about 1,300lah, rip-off if buy for 1,500, international class ONE quality and standards. If not, how can export and compete internationally? Great demand somemore….wahlaueh…this is called PRIDE lah.

Bolehland TV (I presume it's Bolehland made brand) about 799, quality and standards OK meh? Plz ask SenQ, Onking, ESH, Courts, Carrefour, Giant, Denki, etc. Are we comparing rambutan to rambutan here? Are Bolehland TVs equipped with the same tech features like their RisingSun counterparts? Need to sit near near not when watching EPL? Takut bola tak tahu mana piki…ha ha ha….

Dragonland TV, you dare to use meh? Got "Zilim" certification not? Never the mindlah, Mamak stalls can buylah, ooops…There are mamak stalls nowadays pakai 42 inci projection TV. Plz name one Bolehland or Dragionland brand projection TV. It's projection TV, mate.

Plz don drag HAIER in, it's in a different league, the Champion's League. Value for money, 7+++ for a 42 inci Plasma TV, quality not bad some more, I ni tunggu harga turun bawah 5,000.

Form the above analysis, if you fork out 1,300, you can choose any RisingSun brands, 799? Bolehland brands-lah tu, but you sure as good as RisingSun brands? 599? This type of TV not suitable for watching "hamsap" showslah,…he he he

Conclusion : Price should commensurate with quality and standards, not 1st class price for lower class quality and standards.

Cukup said.

One last question..are u in anyway related to Mr Seleigh?

"Lastly

If Toyota can make 40% of the part in Thailand then yes it can be sold here for 80k… but thats not the case right?"

US market can sell at RM 68K. For Toyota Fortuner produce in Thailand, they sell it at RM 100K ++, compare to our market sell at around RM 170K?

However, I still respect your right of opinion, eventhough I disagree with you on many occasions.

american industrial process is very different from Detroit of Asia idea. let me give a lesson in history: for a start Proton start its operation in 1985… Detroit of Asia starts in 1995. And 1985-87 is not a good fiscal year.

Detroit as a hub for mfg is similar to Proton and Shah Alam; or Milan of Fiat and Mitsubishi for Japan. Dotted around those cities and town (Japan is the exception becos of its excellent transportation links) is vendors supplying auto parts just like Detroit. And in those cities the car is conceptualised/design/manufactures/assembled.

Whereas in Rayong (Detroit of Asia) part for the cars is designed/manufactured and assembled. See the difference?

The old Proton/Mitsu model means that the car is conceptualise/designed somewhere else but the parts are manufactured here and assembly process is done here. This concept is being used in Detroits of Asia.

Next: have you been to a car plant? Or have you try to take car apart and put it back. Then you know how difficult to automate that process. GM/Ford/Chrysler have tried various means of automation but fail. The Japanese come up with a better concept of using 'automated human' or in better word discipline workers. Pls read the "The Toyota Way" for more insights.

Toyota plant in Japan and their respective assemblers are very different. In Munich you can see the process from a transparent window.. do you see the same thing in Pekan (the assembler) or Rayong? The fact that most other sub plants use old machine from the home country plant speak volume about the condition of other plants.

The holdings in Thailand are public listed company are like Proton, so you can check their shareholders. Then you can see who hold the shares… this is not money politcs where comp. donate money for campaign like US/UK.

D'lloyd power window need not survive if there are competitors… but of course we only moan and not make competitors. The one around just importers not mfr.

joe,

i work very close with industries – so i know a bit about factory pricing. And tax rate for most countries can be googled its does not take rocket scientist to deduce how much is paid.

NAP gave fair pricing for ASEAN countries and nothing more. The previous tax regiment give discount 50% to P1 ; 75% to P2 and 100% to Naza. So how come P1 is the only one being blamed?

Lastly

If Toyota can make 40% of the part in Thailand then yes it can be sold here for 80k… but thats not the case right?

Yes, P1 face many problems now… but P1 ve the tools to produce cars.. they'll just need to find the right partner…

I refute your claim that there is no such thing as "Detroit of Asia". I also challenge and disagree your statement that "In fact Proton is the best idea around (at the time)". Remember that if you study history of American Industrialisation success, it is mainly contribute by motor industry, especially GM and Ford. Detroit City is the hub and heartland of American auto industry, even until today, eventhough it is spread to other part of US, especially by Japanese players like Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

As I mentioned before, our government in 1970s and 80s adopted heavy industry programme and devised Proton as part of industrialisation process. It is Proton use US "Detroit" success model in our auto programme. In no way as there is such thing as "emulate Proton/Mitsu model".

You have your opinion on – "Mind you, each holdings in Thailand have to donate part of their share and profit to Thaksin." This is more to do with "political donation" rather than something to do with auto industry. In many part of democracy world, the Western perspective of "money-bag politics" are mostly applicable, even in UK and US. Our Bolehland may have unique "local variant", and termed by local media as "Money Politics"!, in which this phrase has "no meaning" or can't find any meaning if you refer to Oxford Dictionary.

Mind you biggie that manufacturing of cars is not as factory floor "dirty job" as mentioned by you. It is not highly polluted and low tech industry, but big capital and high tech industry. If you check at Toyota or Merc website, they have R & D centre throughout the world, Thailand, Silicon Valley, India, etc which are outside of their countries of origin (Japan and German). Toyota City is located at Japan and Merc also have factories at German, they have production at their home countries as well as oversea. So your statement "They do not have to worry as the dirty job is being done elsewhere." is totally unacceptable and lack of info on your part!

So if you think that D’lloyd (wira – power window supplier) have to survive by not allowing another company come up with better product, then let the consumers continue to suffer?

biggie …. mind you that there are many unhappy car customers, yet some still stick to Proton due to P1 and NAP. We are not bashing P1 but "victim of P1/NAP".

biggie …. mind you that you know Proton Wira before tax is only 35K? My friend involved in export informed me last time that Saga 1.5 L (Pesona) UK specs is around RM 19K only? And without NAP, many car and auto part will be assemble here just like electronic sector, thus shall be at lowest price for consumers. However, we are slap with tax up to 280% Is this fair?

biggie – btw rising sun 29 tv at rm1500 but bolehland tv can be bought at rm799. china made is cheaper ar rm599. Don’t you think there is some tax hidden somewhere?

Joe Ooi – the tax of electrical sector is almost lowest. There is no hidden tax, the price different is due to Japs diffenrent quality and specs products. If what you mentioned hold true, then in Malaysian car sector, Toyota Camry 2.4L shall sell at say around RM 80K, then Perdana V6 at around 60K.

no big deal, I have a big family and we use variety of products P1, P2, Toyota, Honda and whatever. Me… I don't drive that much, in my line of work I rather being driven or take public transport.

During the time Proton started there were no such thing as Detroit of Asia (unfortunately I'm that old to remember the time) or the idea of Detroit of Asia. In fact Proton is the best idea around (at the time). As the passenger car market come crashing down then car mfr looking to emulate Proton/Mitsu model thus opening up the Detroit of Asia idea. Mind you, each holdings in Thailand have to donate part of their share and profit to Thaksin.

Joe,

This is the scenario where big economies open up their market. They know the guys who make cars abroad is theirs, so the profit went back to own countries to pay for concept cars studios/design house etc…etc…. They do not have to worry as the dirty job is being done elsewhere.

Proton need to grow faster, thus we will like to export the dirty job out. But it does not, as M'sian is happy whining but not doing anything much. Do you think that D'lloyd (wira – power window supplier) can survive if another company come up with better product?

Joe..

Yes I stay out of M'sia for very long time and my neighbours back then (and now, I bought the house that I rent) till now still using Proton. He just bought one Savvy for his daughter. I never ask him why.. although I know that he is a miser.

Needgoodcar,

do you know that Proton Wira before tax is only 35K? And to import electronic goods you need to get an AP. We export electronic parts so how can we impose taxes on parts that we export in the 1st place. Look inside Sony radio, many parts is Made in M'sia.

btw rising sun 29 tv at rm1500 but bolehland tv can be bought at rm799. china made is cheaper ar rm599. Don't you think there is some tax hidden somewhere?

Joe Ooi – This is my personal experience when I am at UK. Yes, during 1990s, Proton cars in UK still new, and to say do I feel proud? My answer is Yes and No.

Proton all the way play "national car status" card in our Bolehland market and bombarded with all avanlanche of "hype talking" – "buy local products" – "Made in Malaysia". This is a sensible move by G as citizens support is crucial to the survival of this nature of endeavor. Unfortunately, I said it is UNFORTUNATELY, when market in the UK, the advertisement (at least it was truth for year 1994, perhap this may outdated argument) in UK newspaper like Daily Telegraph, NOT only dare not to put in 3 venerable words "Made in Malaysia", BUT merely "Japanese Technology, Malaysian Style". Yes, initially I felt proud seeing our Bolehland cars can reach our former master colonel land. But after a while, what P1 told us in our Bolehland and supposed us to be proud of, but when it come to UK, P1 dare not to put in something they want in Bolehland – "Made in Malaysia". Then what to be proud of? With Jap Tech, M'sia style, how to introduce this product as from Bolehland, perhaps put in "Made in Malaysia" will lead to poor sales.

Today, as good citizen of Malaysia, after using Proton cars for approximately 10 years. In term of brand loyalty, I am unable to find a clear definition in respect of how to define "brand loyalty", but fairly to say that sticking to Proton Brand for 10 years, I consider myself as "loyal customer of Proton". Do I feel proud of Proton? The answer is big NO, after go through all kind of bad experiences with Proton car for more than 10 years.

Are you a Malaysian?

Why do you have to drag the Brits in? I am an ardent supporter of their Premier League.

Since you mentioned Holden, I will use Kangarooland to make comparison.

Do you drive a P1? If not, what car are you driving?

Do you really know our pain? Do you feel it?

Do you work for P1?

Are you impressed with the Chancellor?

Are Holden cars with so many defects?

Genuine parts that are more expensive but a fake substitute can do the job equally well?

Cost of servicing at authorised centres that are far more expensive than non-approved workshops but the latter can perform an equally well job?

A Honda Accord 2.4 is selling for about 100k in Lanjauhi Island but about RM155k in PenisULa, apparently pricing discrimination is being practised in Bolehland, do you have such thing in Kangarooland?

Do the Kangarooland people enjoy free maintenance and servicing for their new cars within certain mileage or period of use?

Is Holden still selling cars of which the design dated some 20 years back?

Is Holden selling cars that cannot meet the industry’s safety standards?

Does the administrator of the Kangarooland impose hefty taxes so that non-Kangaroo car prices are artificially high?

How much is a Mazda 6 selling in Kangarooland compared with a Holden car in the same range?

Do you know the CIF value landed on Bolehland’s shore for Mazda 6 is 45k, and ends up with 150k in show room? How do you justify the difference?

Imagine Mazda 6, winner of so many awards can come to Bolehland’s shore for a mere 45k, why can’t P1 produce cars of such quality and standard at that price? Fine, add another 25K, selling for 70k, fantastic deal!!! 70k for cars of Mazda 6 quality and standard, don’t you want one too?

How much is P1 Waja selling in Kangarooland? At that price, what other types of cars can people in Kangarooland have?

In economy sense, P1 must be able to produce enough cars to achieve the required economy of scale, which means that they have to sell their cars abroad because the domestic demand in Bolehland will not be enough to absorb that volume, then the question is where? P1 cars simply cannot compete with other players in the international arena, because they can’t even compete on its own soil even with ridiculous protection, how many times do I have to say this?

We are very simple and naïve people, we just want basic things, we know that if not for the hefty car taxes, with the same amount of money for P1 cars, we could have much much better cars to choose from, are we asking too much?

FYI, we are not being cynical here, in fact, we could not be bothered with what P1 wants to do, because we believe as long as P1 is here, and the Bolehland’s administrator continues to protect it, our dream of buying decent cars at reasonable prices may well remain a HONDA – THE POWER OF DREAM.

Mind you, I prefer Bolehland’s LAMRI (Ayam spesial, You know what I am referring to?) made and prepared by Bolehland people than Mad Don Erhh’s. Takut kena sued nanti!!! Who say we don’t give Bolehland’s product a chance?

For those of you who think that P1 should be protected no matter how even if their products still not up to the standards for reasons such as pride, employment, or whatever reasons that you can think of. Please read on.

Then, why are we only single out the car market in Bolehland? Please look around in your own house, the electrical home appliances, TV, fridge, washing machines, etc. Aren’t we spoilt with choices? Do we need a Bolehland brand or national electrical home appliance maker? Why don’t we ask the administrator to slap a 200% tax on all the non-Bolehland brand electrical home appliances? After all, we can have pride as we have our very own “national electrical home appliance maker”.

A typical 29” flat RisingSunLand brand color TV is selling for about 1,500, tell me if you want it to be increased to 3,000 in order to protect a Bolehland brand TV? TELL ME!!!

My heartiest thanks to Mr. Seleigh, I thought the forum on the Proton Quality Control Campaign is as good as DEAD until you rekindled it with your “Loh Lay Sui” (ask your Cantonese friendlah) view. You managed to turn a ripple into a TIDAL WAVE!!!

Lain kali pikir cukup cukup dulu baru taip lah.

If we embrace open market, we shall outdo Thailand and can proclaim as "Detroit of Asia". Our people are generally have better command of English than the Thais, if we have similar open policy, perhaps BMW, Toyota, etc, will come to Malaysia instead of Thailand to set up their factories and the accelerator effects of investment will be in greater quantum. Thus create more job opportunity and stimulate other related industry like vendors, part suppliers, etc.

If you look at the last (No. 6) of NAPs' objectives, It shall enable the consumers to enjoy safe, high quality and value for money cars. But current NAP CarTaxLand is "self-contradictory" apart from not in the spirit of AFTA, WTO, etc. As you are in the opinion NAP provide more revenues and opportunity for the ppl. To who? AP Kings, TM or all the big fat crocs? What the people have is to take the burden of exorbitant and very unreasonable tax.

Talk about closing down Proton doesn't mean its Tanjong Malim spanking factory will be a ghost town. Definitely other interested to take over at least to eassemble their car, even Proton still can exist, instead of rebadge doing contract assembly works. Our scenario won't be like MG Rover, as there are plenty of economic opportunity not only in auto sector, but all sector if we really implement economically viable projects, and do away with so call "white elephant projects".

Yes, many developed and western countries adopted close policy in the past, but they learned the big mistake and the detrimental effects of such policy or policies. Do we have to go through the same cycle of mistakes, can our future generation to bear the economic cost of our mistakes! Remembered that Western and develop countries fairly to say is rich and advance, we are developing countries? How much we can absorb with scarce resources!

Actually Proton and other heavy industries like Perwaja, Cement factories, etc, were conceived in the 1970s and 80s as part of our nation industrialisation vision to be toward developed nation (2020 Vision). But today reality on these industries are best described as "pathetic" in term of contribute toward nation building. In Perwaja case, it is full of controversi and drain out a lot of fund from treasury!

Talk about proud of Malaysian car abroad, it is more on "exception than norm"! If foreigner or oversea market proud of our Proton products, than we can fell proud because we attain recognition abroad like Toyota or Merc. Can Proton display its cars at international show like Tokyo, Franfurt, Geneva or Shanghai motor show? The reality is Proton even got ostricised by local market! What to said, you ask your self!

Yes, Proton talk in the market want to cease production on Iswaras and Wira long ago, but sales is till strong simply because of pricing factor under draconian NAP. If Proton serious in its quality campaige, then the quality improvement shall not limited to fix the power window, open/close door, bumper, etc, but shall look into future holistic view by come out with new model with latest technology, safe and value for money cars! If what you said about Iswara and Wira is truth, then Proton think of short term profits only?

To Matthew Seleigh, you are the one need to learn to smile,………… perhaps "senyum kambing" @ "goats smile" ……… can you, or can't you,…….

u c joe.. policy cant change so fast, especially when talking about national interest (P1 oso have many local investers)… but i am sure P1 cant continue like this.. so wait la 2010.. we' ll see what happen… & so far i like the new P1 MD.. he listens to complain.. not like previous one.. TM…

I take the last one 1st.

CBU employs sales and after sales personnel

CKD employs limited number of vendors/mfg eng/techs/sales/after sales personnel

National employs designer/R&D eng/mfg eng/vendors/tech/sales/after sales/marketing personnel

Thats why the tax tariff should be as they are now. As the latter provide more revenues and opportunity for the ppl. NAP just take into consideration of ASEAN countries on top of M'sia.

Britain to close the MG Rover the process takes about 30++ yrs. It sold off to many diff. comp not simply closed down. Even then it leaves ghost towns and closure of many related bussineses. But as MG Rover has develop its manpower over the yrs most of the jobless is at NVQ3 level equivalent to our Dip. thus they can be absorbed in other factories, or living under state expenses.

We neither have state welfare for the jobless or highly qualified staff (Proton or vendors)… just imagine the econmic impact. Even now as factories is being closed down we see many social problems. The impact will be worse then.

England have protected car industry until 1970, US until 1980 and Japan until 1990. All of those countries start to mfr cars from pre-WW2 era. China still protect their car industry. And Korea do so until 1998. The same with Australia until Holden being taken over by GM.

Why we need to call our car industry a national project. May be becos the leaders felt that as a colonised nation (unlike the rest of car builfer nation) we do need to feel of owning something. Rightly or wrongly I don't know… but I do read that some M'sian do feel proud when seeing M'sian cars abroad.

Well I know Proton want to stop mfg Iswaras long ago, but sales are still strong, so why cannibalised profit? Same as Wiras. Iswaras is donated by Mitsu at no cost to Proton.

April 12, 2006 @ 6:14 pm

Matthew said – Smile and say “wrong” Joe.

It is interesting to give correct picture about Holden, but the one I mentioned about rebatch is as far as I know I read from one article quite sometime ago. Anyway, if you really provide accurate information, then your info shall take precedent! Thank for that. However, at all material time, that doesn't constitute any admission of liability or wrongdoing on my part!

We are neither bashing (bitterness) nor cynical mugs show toward SZ or Proton, or prove any links with Britain as claim by you. You come up with this kind of unsubstantiate, unjustify and no basis statement show you are another typical naive guy which do not understanding the nature and market conditions of Malaysian auto industry. Neither Australia nor Britain have NAP, AP, National car project of the nature and conditions as Malaysian facing now. You may not really understand the suffering we facing as consumers and tax payer. If you are citizen of Malaysia and uphold western democracy value, fair to say you shall at least go to street carry out demonstration or take any radical action which may jeopardise the country security. However, we are polite and good citizen never do that, and the content I posted in Pault Tan site are PURELY DEMONSTRATE THE STRONG DISSATISFACTION AS CONSUMER AS WELL AS TAX PAYERS. I am not like Brits as claimed by you, and definitely also odn't like you simply because we don't have the opportunity to buy quality car which is value for money like your country! Do you agreed!

Yes, I agreed with you that none of us is capable and know how to fix the Proton except close it down simply because we are not qualified, also Proton not economically viable since its inception!

In economic sense, how do you justifyand relate "national car project" to level of employment? Mind you that countries like Thailand, Singapore, Britain and more than 100 other nations in this world don't have such project yet never clamour for national car project to create employment opportunity? You seem have the self-centre view, lack of understanding and knowledge as the initial objectives of setting up Proton? Please read more and once you get a crystal clear holistic view on historical background, I believe you will come up with more objective comment(s).

When you guys mention talking the talk and walking the walk, you ought to try it with a mirror. It’s really easy to snipe from the sidelines, but it’s another thing altogether to take on a daunting task and give it your all. It looks like working hard towards a goal must not be everyone’s cut of tea. Syed Zainal’s shown that level of commitment, but there’s virtually nobody here other than our host Paul who seems to grasp that basic point. Too bad, since it’s your loss. But Syed Zainal deserves some time to pull off any program of change at Proton, and I suppose most of the thinking crowd understand that.

We mainly talk on this issue as consumers and tax payer perspective, of course if you order car and pay huge sum of money, then you expected certain level of satisfactions and value for money! If your argument hold true that ask us to fix Proton problems, then you are another joker same league with Proton. We as consumers pay the money to enjoy the car products, not to fix the manufacturer problems? You even can't distinguish us as consumers at large and Syed Zainal as MD of Proton entrust with the task of leading Proton! "We pay ticket to go into football stadium to enjoy the game, but you ask us to go down to the pitch to kick the ball". What argument you try to put forward here!

Lastly, you mentioned about our level of generalisation towards Proton and the industry is laughable", and you make comparision and equal to "some Mat Salleh get off the KLIA express, is roughed up and robbed by a Malaysian bloke and then says, "ALL Malayisans are thieves". This is utterly your "self proclaim" accusation and reflect your narrow knowledge on us as consumers and tax payers. Therefore, I can concluded that we are not the mob at Proton as claimed by you, but you are the mob of Malaysians' car consumers and tax payer at large! So, the real person who hold the broad brush is you, and you are expected to like any colour which may splash on your shirt/body as a result of you paint work!

Please study the background and get the indepth understanding the Malaysian car consumers and tax payers have to face the financial suffering. Kindly mind your language and use of word(s) by not "make inapprorpiate reperesentations on wrong assumptions"! I advise you do some groundwork, fact findings or a little understanding on the nature of Malaysian car market with specific reference to NAP/Tax structure, etc. If you refer to NAP with tax in aggregate of 280%, are you say it is fair and justifiable? you ask yourself?

For example your country Toyota Camry 2.4L may sale at around USD 20K, Malaysian market at aroud USD 43K! is that OK for you, if you say OK and agreed, then send to me money equivalent to USD 23K so that I can buy Camry instead currently use Proton car? Can you do it, if so I thank you "thousand million TQ, he, he, he,…….. Finally, in the eye of law, the onus is on you to take the burden to proof "beyond reasonable doubt" your statement that "Smile and say “wrong” Joe".

Oh, ooops, Matthew Seleigh, you are "wonderful and fantastic", proof me wrong, proof me wrong, ……… NOT FOR ME TO TAKE BURDEN TO ADMIT AND SAY I AM WRONG!

Ha, ha, ha, huh, ha, ………….

From: Joe Ooi

but we can be a smart consumer… take the benefit from the current situation.. furthermore we still have P2.. if dont like P1, turn to P2 la.. at least more of our young technicians have job opportunities in P1 or P2.. and can work with many2 vendors outside there oso.. maybe one day our children can work with them oso…. like my fren work with P2.. i can buy P2 cars with staff discount.. she offer me discount for myvi.. but i dont want.. myvi too soft for me.. cars for sissy…hehehe…

If Holden's shilling nothing but rebadged Fords, The General's gonna be mad – Holden is a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors and has been since the early 1960s when it bought the few outstanding shares held by the Commonwealth Bank and the Bank of South Australia.

And I'm sorry to continue bursting your bubbles, but Holden has the capability to design and develop an entire car, save the gearbox. In fact Holden was in the driver's seat for GM's long awaited "affordable" global rear-wheel-drive platform till the company's US fortunes imploded. Detroit parked the program, but Holden kept in under development and it will appear later this year as the VE series Commodore.

Though Holden used to design its own engines, much of that skill base has been moved offshore. However, the guys running the shop down in Melbourne had the brains to retain key competencies in engine development, and this has been put to use with the V-6 and V-8 powerplants during engine integration programs for the company's Australian-built models.

Yes, there is also a range of rebadged Opels and Daewoos (sorry, no Fords) wearing Holden badges in Oz, but the primary sales volume of the company is the rear-drive Australian-developed and engineered Commodore.

But so much for the Aussies. Now it's time to return to Bolehland.

It's fascinating to see the level (and bitterness) of the Proton-bashing here as well as the cynical attitude some of you mugs show towards a guy like Syed Zainal who's as honest as the day is long and has taken on the tough job of fixing Proton. I suppose that sort of dreary cynicism merely proves Malaysia's links with Britain. Mind you, being like the Brits is nothing I'd be proud of. Buy hey, it's your choice.

Regardless as to the level of banter here, I strongly suspect that none of the people bleating here about Proton would have the stones (let alone ability) to actually try to fix what's wrong with the company. Or even know where to start other than by closing it down. And then I bet you'd bitch about the increase in unemployment.

When you guys mention talking the talk and walking the walk, you ought to try it with a mirror. It's really easy to snipe from the sidelines, but it's another thing altogether to take on a daunting task and give it your all. It looks like working hard towards a goal must not be everyone's cut of tea. Syed Zainal's shown that level of commitment, but there's virtually nobody here other than our host Paul who seems to grasp that basic point. Too bad, since it's your loss. But Syed Zainal deserves some time to pull off any program of change at Proton, and I suppose most of the thinking crowd understand that.

Lastly, the level of generalisation some of you guys show towards Proton and the industry is laughable. It's like some Mat Saleh gets off the KLIA express, is roughed up and robbed by a Malaysian bloke and then says, "ALL Malaysians are thieves". They aren't, and I'd bet credits to navy beans that the same can be said for many of the mob at Proton you seem to relesh in demeaning. Please remember that when you’re painting with a really broad brush, you can expect some of the paint to stick to you, too. So you'd better like the colour.

Matthew Seleigh

April 12, 2006 @ 12:13 pm

This is my personal opinion only: -

biggie – joe and the rest

1st and foremost Zainal originally from Proton. He jump to get better pay at Perodua then jump back. But he is an honest person, the only problem is the delivery mechanism (middle management).

Joe Ooi – I think Proton problems are not limited to middle management! Yes, the new MD SZ as I see it will never failed to lead P1 and set a correct direction. But look at range of P1 products in the market, fairly to say P1 will fail MD SZ misery! For example, Proton Iswara models is already more than 2 decades, if you send this model to Toyota City, BMW or Merc factories, they also cannot help on quality improvement, from their point of view, this outmoded car never passed NCAP test or any quality standard set by them and it is "scrap metal". In other word, if MD SZ wants to improve quality, and if we use Proton market at UK as indication, the only models on sale are Jumbuck, Impian (Waja), Gen-2 and Savvy. Then the 1st thing for SZ to do is to cease productions for all outmoded and aging models like Iswara, Wira, Perdana, Satria, and Juara etc. Later, remove all as what wc5be said Datuk Kamarulzaman Darus and Tony Chan as Head of Quality Management. Do MD SZ have the will and able to make such changes, majority of vehicles sales by Proton is still "venerable" Wira and Iswara models, how do it affect P1 bottomline? Without such changes, then fairly to say currently campaign is another myth than reality!

biggie – now if u want to compare our car prices to the rest of the world, go on; but our tax for cars is about 60% of factory value, where as import tax for UK at 5% and Australia at 10%. The infor available on the net. UK has sold all his auto mfr, where as Ausralia Holden is the biggest recipient of govt grant for the past 15 yrs. One yr of those grant is enough to run Proton for 3 yrs.

Joe Ooi – We make objective and reasonable comparison as our G also signatory to FTAs like WTO, AFTA, etc. on total aggregate of our CarTaxLand, it is up to approx. 280% under NAP – "Nonsense Alligators Protection". UK not sold but closed all mass production car manufacturers. The last victim is MG Rover; they make wise economic decision, as it is no longer economically viable! Holden car mostly rebadge from Ford, they receive grant from Australia G but their tax still low. It may the 1 year grant enough to run P1 for 3 years, but in anyway Aus never allowed Holden to inflict huge economic cost to the nation, and other makes available in Aus market still sale at lowest price by embrace open policy.

biggie – As for the looks ah Beng or not, it depends on personal perspective. Most probably TM coming from Rally background like these Ah Beng thinghy but I don’t think Zainal a stout family and religious man will have the same idea. But then taking out the Ah Beng means that Proton will only try to please the mak cik and uncle (like many here).

Joe Ooi – TM by virtue of involved in Rally background doesn't means he is good in everything about autos. Whether MD SZ have similarity or not with TM, the fact remain that as I explain above, Proton will fail MD SZ misery, not SZ failed to lead Proton. The sad truth is Proton existence failed everybody and everyone, e.g. expected G implement blood sucking NAP, suck consumers blood till last drop by treat them as captive consumers buying it outmoded yet relatively high price bad quality products.

biggie – Its a lose-lose situation for Proton unless they can come up with enough model to cater for both market segment.

Joe Ooi – enough models! Sad truth is their record shown either "replacement models" or rebadge other old model and introduce them as "new" in our market, what the joker!

biggie – As for customer service, its where they need to improve 1st and foremost. But its really difficult as the way it is managed now there isn’t much that Proton can do. but the customers need to be selective on which CS they want to send their cars to.

Joe Ooi – I agree with you about the P1 SC, it is true as what you say and if different SC do thing differently, then what to say about quality after sales service. If to be selective, my advice is not go to anyone after warranty period.

biggie – I don’t care about the car tax, in fact I like to have every car sold in M’sia to tie its tax structure to how many ppl it employs. The more it employ less tax should be paid.

Joe Ooi – current NAP tax is related to CBU, CKD and cc. If NAP tie to how many people it employ, current NAP should scrap and I don't understand how you try to relate these 2 variables – tax and level of employment! Hope you can explain in greater details.

1st and foremost Zainal originally from Proton. He jump to get better pay at Perodua then jump back. But he is an honest person, the only problem is the delivery mechanism (middle management).

now if u want to compare our car prices to the rest of the world, go on; but our tax for cars is aout 60% of factory value, where as import tax for UK at 5% and Australia at 10%. The infor available on the net. UK has sold all his auto mfr, where as Ausralia Holden is the biggest recipient of govt grant for the past 15 yrs. One yr of those grant is enough to run Proton for 3 yrs.

As for the looks ah Beng or not, it depends on personal perspective. Most probably TM coming from Rally background like these Ah Beng thinghy but I don't think Zainal a stout family and religious man will have the same idea. But then taking out the Ah Beng means that Proton will only try to please the mak cik and uncle (like many here).

Its a lose-lose situation for Proton unless they can come up with enough model to cater for both market segment.

As for customer service, its where they need to improve 1st and foremost. But its really difficult as the way it is managed now there isn't much that Proton can do. but the customers need to be selective on which CS they want to send their cars to.

I don't care about the car tax, in fact I like to have every car sold in M'sia to tie its tax structure to how many ppl it employs. The more it employ less tax should be paid.

like thes wa,.. all people from proton who malaysian can do n call notional pride that can do somthing to our malaysia!, if that the way u o me also can wa, ha…ha…!.

I am still using the car to date, mind you, the current radiator fixed in my car now is the 4th unit.

1st time bocor, tukar baru, 2nd time bocor tukar baru, 3rd time bocor tukar baru, 4th time boror, everytime traffic jam happened, stopped in the middle of the road, call tarik kereta, everybody looking at you, malu betul, OK, sudah mahu satu bulan lagi cukup waranti, tidak boleh ambil chance lagi, left the car in the servis centre for about 2(or 3 days) for them to check thoroughly, cannot recall how long, after that was told there was a defect in the pancut air problem, something that the pressure of the water flowing into the radiator not "arhm", so whenever there's need to pancut the water into the radiator, it's far too strong, the radiator cannot tahan, bocor. They managed to fix the problem, ever since no radiator problem, touch wood.

Mounting changed 2 times, car rattles like bus, even Metrobus is more quiet.

Driver side car power window set No. 3, faked one, according to the mekanik, it has two extra iron plate, can hold the wire longer, can tahan longer. Now want to wind down, press half way, release, cannot sekali gus turun semua, then continue to make it turun, when close, also naik sekali, lagi tekan sekali, baru kasi naik semua. Cannot terus up and terus down.

Front passenger side power window F alreidi more than 1 year, ask the mekanik to use 2 dawai kasi gantung, disabled alreidi.

Belakang power window left hand side, better don't press, you know what, here's tip, whenever you close the door, if the door closes with a solid "THUP" sound, that's means the window panel is OK, if it alreidi gone case, when you close the door, that seems to be angin keluar sound, not the solid "THUP". That's what happen to this power window, if I try to press, it won't come up again, I know.

The light bulp always burned, the rear mirror, sudah cannot fixed into the lubang properly, if you pusing kuat sikit, the whole read mirror tercabut.

The volume control and the station control on the steering wheel, I use tissue paper to stuck that control panel so that they wont drop off.

Wanted to sell the lemon last year, so waited bcos was told that VW is definetely coming, with the new Passat 2.0 FSI, the rest of the story you know what lah.

Share with you a secret, if you can afford, get a CBU, the recommended one being Mazda 6, bcos that's most decent in terms of price and standard, CKD? Local assembling technique not up to the standards, in Germany, when they can't close the car door properly, the engineers will go back to the drawing board to see why it cannot close properly, may be design not right, here? they use the hammer to close it, roll out, u pakai lah. If you not lucky, whether national cars or CKD, same one. Is it TRUE? Plz tell me.

Wah, really like the Toyota Mark X.

Proton incoming partner-in-crime, worst case scenario is the mainlander. God forbid that! But look like it is the most probable scenario.

Deep inside, i hope its not the chinese or even the japanese (mistsui). Let it be VW. Amen.

My distaste for Proton run in my blood. Original goal is to buy non-national car. So, I saved $$, RM for 4 long years just for that (that just for the big lump sum down payment so monthly instalment is managable ). During those time, I sacrifice a few things e.g. image among co-worker (boss and subordinate) coz drive motor skuter only! Its not wrong, but can sense your 'pembawaan' amongst your peer drop coz you 'no-class' ( i don't mean motorcyclist no-class, ok? But faham-faham la human basic mentality).

Everybody else drive car, but you busy wif the helmet, baju hujan and stuff.

After 4 years period end, managed to meet the objective (of buying non-national car). That how I materialise my distaste, frustration etc towards Proton. Praise God for allowing me to reach this little objective.

However, as my distate for Proton continue, I been monitoring Savvy since they release the car. The marketing ploy look like back fire. Creative idea but most probably only youth (most no source of income) could accept it. Silap la Proton. Better rebrand its image wif a second round marketing campaign. I strongly believe, it is not too late for this car. Lets not touch on the issue of the timing when they release it. Stupido.

They also play-play with TUV. Now no more huhah abt TUV. Why ahh? Sandirawa kah ini?

Thanks to P2 inability to coup with demand on Myvi & no major wide-spread complaints (genuine or not) about Savvy, I strongly believe the sale for this car is picking up rather handsomely. It might not be aggresive, but its there. Ppl also slowly begin to view Savvy positively now. Zero kit & other accessories does help but sell it a bit cheaper la.. Make it the craze in the town but don't ever compromise on quality and styling (no ah beng – ah beng style, please). Take cue from latest European small hatchback. I don't mind.

Sure the car overall still lower than what was expected. Personally, the interior is not good enough. But so far the signs are encouraging (for a product produced by Proton).

BTW, my little sister just bought one. I actually approve it! Good luck to her (and me too). Like what been mention here b4, we are captive in the car market.

Its the most economical/affordable/stylish car her money could buy. Kancil and kelisa old lah, already boring wif their look. What a sad-looking pool of choices. Did i say choices?? Paul, sorry for that. Didn't mean to mislead the readers..

Regarding the Quality Control Campaign (the topic), It Feel, Sound, Taste 100% like magic budak-budak sekolah la SZ.. (Remember Allahyarham S.A. Bakar? Has you ever attend his magic show at your primary school?) The amazement last for a while but not that long, unless your are one boring boy or a magic fan. He he..

Gut feeling say 6-12 months from now, rakyat, market, investor, everybody for that matter will bash it or just silently view this campaign as another extension of Proton long running NATO (No Action Talk Only) soap drama forced upon CarTaxland inhibitants throat. If they care to remember la..

Joe, ur WAJA oso hav common WAJA problems?? Think of INNOVA… Do you really need it for whole family members?? Cause this is a heavy car, think of space…. tol payment…. petrol comsumption… If u r always drive alone n less family members, better go for other toyota, honda models but definately not P1….

I ve my eyes on Honda city… wait a bit more…