I QUOTE from;

WaiserWoo said,
May 26, 2008 @ 3:47 pm

Another intellectual discussion from a knowledgeable blogger! Many thanks and keep up the good work!

I have a friend who works there and have known about the intentions behind this project for some time now. What differentiates this company against others is that – (a) to begin with, they have not solicited a single cent (sen) from any government body, and the owners of this company, (apart from being individually rich themselves), have spent actual millions of RM over the last few years, to move from pure concept to real life pilot implementation of such an end-to-end solution, just to make sure it works.

Having worked in the IT industry for more than 25 years, and the last 11 years specifically in the oil & gas industry, i can understand the tremendous technical challenges this company must have overcomed to get to this stage.

This is where they (ePetrol) have invested in – by acquring technical know-how and domain expertise from subject matter expert individuals from the oil & gas, smart card, epayment, and banking industries – in short the full spectrum of knowledge; to develop, test and prove this system.

Here, i offer some fundamental truths to this subject matter:

(a) the Mykad has an open area that allows smart card readers to READ its information; mainly the IC number, Name, etc. This information is authenticated and securely written into our MyKad chip by JPN and its impossible to change without the encryption key from JPN. Occasionally, fake or stolen MyKads have been used for various unlawful purposes, but these are with fake laminates on the card, where the original MyKad owner’s picture and printed information had been changed. BUT the CONTENTS of the smart chip still contains its ORIGINAL information; because this is practically impossible to change; and to-date, none such case have been detected by JPN yet and they can attest to this.

(b) linking an individual’s bank account to the MyKad – let me clear the air here … firstly, NO additional information is written into the MyKad, as there is no need to, simply because the “linking” is easily achieved by reading your IC number in your MyKad, and routing this information to your bank. Your bank of course would undoubtedly know who you are based on YOUR IC number … therefore, linking your bank account does not mean having your bank account information in your MyKad. The ePetrol system also will NOT have any of your bank details, because the ePetrol system only reports fuel purchase data to your bank, your bank then debits your account and pays the oil company the respective amount, so you are safe. Your privacy is still preserved and protected. Furthermore, if someone steals your MyKad, and tries to buy subsidised fuel, unless the person who steals your MyKad also knows your PIN, they can’t activate the purchase of fuel at any petrol station. Its just like using an ATM card to pay for fuel purchases.

(c) the bank account linking feature is NOT mandatory, meaning an individual has the option to link his/her bank account to the purchase of subsidised petrol, or not to link – in which case, he/she simply just pays using cash or credit card. There’s no magic here. Please understand that the method of payment and the subsidy is two entirely different things. Please don’t confuse and complicate things here. Using the MyKad allows the government to securely and irrevocably grant fuel subsidy amounts to qualified Malaysians, in short this ePetrol thing is a system that enables the gov’t to accurately provide subsidy to individual citizens. How we pay for our petrol purchases at the pump is up to us to decide …

I hope everyone has a better understanding and appreciation based on these facts.

It is not embedded, it is linked. Your real bank account data is NOT inside the MyKad chip, it stays with the bank and can be access by you only provided you have the appropriate access i.e. login and password.

In reality, all MyKad reader available in the market can only read basic personal identification data only plus driving licenses. Other data such as bank account, health info (mind you it is only available if you’re dealing with Hospital Putrajaya), police records and immigration info can only be access exclusively by the relevant parties such as the police, hospital and banks. Even JPN cannot access bank account records linked into your MyKad.

Don’t make assumption if you really don’t know anything about it, okay.

I QUOTE from:
TravelDriver said,

May 25, 2008 @ 2:59 pm

That’s a total in-depth discussion Mr. TravelDriver. At least somebody in here is talking sense. Keep it up!

I guess it was not an ease WIN – WIN status.

Maybe they shall as individual patrol status open a counter just for NON-Malaysian car and station owner hold full responsibilities / accountabilities on it, include on putting CCTV to prove the honest to the rules. At this same time can help reduce crime rate and protect users who pump patrol on they stations.

One thing for sure, try stating facts and stats when making comments (I hear ya). This will help the blog thread to be more realistic in our approach.

Thanks frossonice, SY0H & mukhri88. Your insights are enlightening & constructive. csv posts are interesting. Idealy where we should be

In brief, my constructive proposal is “Restructure Fuel Subsidy Effectively & Responsibly”

Anyhow here are my items for everyone’s considerations:

- Largest foreign investment company: Shell. Investment > RM 70 Bil.
- Largest Malaysian Company: Petronas
- 9th Malaysia Plan: Allocated RM 40+ Bil a year for implementation
- Subsidies in Malaysia: Estimate to use RM 40+ Bil a year for fuel, sugar, flour, etc.
- Malaysia Total Revenue 2007: RM 140+ Bil (www.treasury.gov.my)
- Malaysia Total Expediture 2007: RM 120+ Bil
- Expected National Balance change 2007 & 2008 = 13% & 2.1% (i.e. how much the G earns (total revenue – total expenditure) changes per year)
- Revenue from Company Direct Taxes = RM 30 Bil / year
- Revenue from Petroleum Direct Taxes (PITA) = RM 22 Bil / year
- Revenue from PETRONAS (non-tax revenues) = RM 24 Bil / year
- Revenue from Licenses & permits (all) = RM 9 Bil / year
- Revenue from Road Taxes = RM 1.7+- Bil / year
- Revenues from Income Taxes = RM 12 Bil / year

Principles of thoughts on Fuel Subsidy Restructuring: -

- Implementing market fuel prices are inevitable.
- Make changes to fuel prices effectively, correctly and/or gradualy that enables positive economic adjustments.
- Always understand economic truths
- Do not stress companies with positive incomes. Protect their interests.
- DO MAKE DRASTIC CHANGES AND FRIGHTEN FOREIGN INVESTORS
- PROTECT THE RAKYAT FROM ECONOMIC CHANGES THAT WE ARE POWERLESS AGAINST!
- Effectively place subsidies to needed people or industry sectors (agriculture and etc).
- There is always a cost in implementing a policy or a system (admin/service vs system)

MY COMMENTS:

Looking at the facts, like it or not, fuel is very much part of our Malaysian life. Screw it, we screw ourselves.

Taxes from companies making profits accounts for RM 30 bil/year (21%), petroleum taxes RM 22 Bil/year (16%) and from PETRONAS RM 24 Bil/year (17%). Together it makes RM 76 Bil / year (54%).

Our income taxes accounts for RM 12 Bil / year (8.5%). Significant but not entirely strong for the nation.

This means any changes we make that affect companies, petroleum incomes and other petroluem realted incomes, we are messing with 54% of our total national income.

Try making 27% (54% divide by 2) adjustment to our paycheck. We will feel the impact immediately even with a partial change.

What we know is that we pump RM 40+ bil into subsidies. That is more than 2X our net income of RM 18 Bil (2007: Total Revenue – Total Ependiture, see http://www.treasury.gov.my). At a macro scale, we need to change. no doubt.

Now if we have a method of reducing subsidies (policy or system), to say 50% of now, we will save Rm 20 bil a year! That is more money for 9MP! 50% more to grow the nation! That is at least RM20bil to pay for TOLLS and car import taxes (do I hear any cheers!)

MACRO POLICIES:

By making economic policies (macro) that affect fuel subsidies is by far the fastest but is also far reaching. It has a blanket effect.

- Making it too simple: Clear and simple to public. Fast to implement. However it may not be efficient (i.e leakages and abuses), adverse effects on the key sectors of the economy due to blanket effect

- Making it to complex: More efficient (i.e. correctly target the right people or industries). However it becomes complex implement and to understand for the public & companies, difficult to administrate. Alot slower to implement and may have several adjustments (seen as undecisiveness)

It need not implement any complex machinary or months of integration. Its immediate tomorrow or at least as soon as the G decides.

Reducing taxes will immediately decreases our nation’s revenue but the subsidy of the volatile prices of fuel is still here. Not a good position to be in.

Less income vs increasing costs. Hmmmm … Then tax other things, more. Companies, income and other taxes? That is the approach that other nation had taken. It works for now but they have more than 30 years to do it.

Caution if we try to do it in 1 year. Try having a baby and change your job at the same time? It is bad enough for me.

Thinking about national changes in so many tax structures & policies. All of us will have to make these changes work immediately or face the consequences.

However changes in economic policies have adverse effects on foreign investors. Remembered what happenned to our Riggit being pegged. It was a very good decision but it frightened foreign investors. Our funds pulled out, our stock market got hit, which was a visible indicator, and then the rest of our industry got spooked and affected by the sudden lack in liquidity (moving money). Remember? We really felt it hard then.

The G must also be considering this as our nation is on the positive track at the moment. Foreign money is again on the rise (hurray!) and we have been seeing increse in projects, sales, work and salary.

The last thing we want to do is jump out at them and frigenten them again. And so our nation wait another 10 years to see the money again?

Foreign investors like, stable economic policies that they can work in (less complex), economic advantages on taxes and other elements (e.g. cheaper & highly skilled work forces, friendly tax programs, etc), and other goodies to stay and use their money here.

Shell is just one with RM70bil invested here. There are others with also substantial amounts. Talk to Penang residents and they will tell you about spooking Foreign Investors.

By far, I think the G may settle on this one. No body is sure about this.

HALLO! Any G men out there who wants to talk on this ?

IMPLEMENTING A SYSTEM:

I am not against a system if …

The consideration of an effective Fuel subsidy system (i.e. “ePetrol” or other like it) must achieve a few criteria: -

- Gov need not change policies that spook Foreign Investors or critical industries
- Public MUST not pay for it (hey I agree w u lot out there)
- Does not introduces complex systems to Oil companies
- Effectively target & providing subsidies to needed individuals and industries
- the G is able to gradually increase fuel prices while keeping needy individuals and industries protected (foreign investors’ companies).
- Simple user experience at the station. Easy for the uncle & aunties out there to use
- Use MyKad (I do not need another card) since we all have them. I do not want to line up to apply for yet another card.
- Secure (I do not want my card to be scammed like back in my magnetic credit card days)
- Convenience & Use at the pump with Cash handling equivalent. Hey if at the end I cannot use this system at the PUMP, its not worth my time.
- No logistic Nightmare! Please no more queing up again and definately not on a regular basis.
- Implement Public Trial Period: show the public that it works initially before a massive rollout (Please remember Heathrow Terminal 5 nightmare).

Yes. Systems can be expensive and complicated to implement.

GOOD PART OF IT: Complexity will only involve the G and the oil companies. We as public will be shilded from the complexity.

BAD PART OF IT: Money. If it costs like RM 20 Bil, then its not worth it at all. I want my money at least in growing more rice, build roads, etc. However if it cost like 1-5% of the total RM40 Bil i.e. One time and below RM 2 Bil (fanned out over 5 years) at least, then it is considered economically feasible in light of the cost of the problem.

Our Malaysian systems seems always to have “visible” faults Aisey embarrassing max. However, no systems work perfectly anyway.

Even economic policies can be faulty but its waaaay less visible because no one (public) can objectively measure it or see the gaping cracks.

IMPLEMENTATION RISK CONSIDERATIONS:

I am thinking aloud about the what ifs … what ifs. Please spare more thoughts on this as I am writing on the go

IF FUEL SUBSIDY POLICY IS NOT WORKING PROPERLY:
The G will need to re-work on the policy and fix it. Image of G in Malaysia might not go well with local & international investors. Economy might take a blow with foreign investments. Stock market might show signs of drop. Recovery from this will be very difficult (our last recovery took us 9 years)

IF FUEL SUBSIDY SYSTEM IS NOT WORKING PROPERLY:
The G will need to fix it until it works. Really embarrassing stories (like Heathrow Terminal 5). May not affect us that much if pilot is done properly. Might not affect economy since no policies were changed.

CONCLUSIONS:

Please G hear my comments. As a citizen, family man & good neighbour my wants are: -

- Do not do drastic changes to economic policies that will affect the nation. I got my income, home, investment (stocks, mutual funds), savings (cash) and my family & future to safe guard. My RM 1.70 can buy a bottle of coca-cola, I don’t want to buy at RM4 for a bottle of coca-cola. All my savings will have less value.

- Do not spook investments into Malaysia. Please continue our positive growth. I hope that our changes in national revenue for 2008 will not be just 2.1% and hope it can be like 2007 at 13+% or more. Malaysia do well, I do well. I hope new mix in G will sustain our growth in revenue

- Do not put Malaysians at risk. Please have good advisors and do the right thing.

As for myself (for my personal risk profile), if I were to make a choice, I will probably go for the system as it has a lower risk for us all. Please just keep the costs affordable and do not make us pay.

And KEEP IT TRANSPARENT.

Hope my rantings makes interesting reading (at least).

Bye for now.
Ex-Oil & Gas employee

no wonder simple thing, they have to make it so susah.
subsidise the petrol, or imply tax. Simple as that.
But this is not, they come out with identification for petrol kiosk
Obviously, want to change all kiosk and earn big laaa.

seems fair to everyone. we do not want to hurt our tourism. we just want foreigners to use our subsidized fuel in our country, contributing to our economy.

this selling of diesel at marine points and all, tankers selling diesel across borders, will still continue to have a problem.

then again just float the price of petrol to world market prices. thats the best. then lets see how malaysia can compete on a level platform.

Riiight. Keep telling yourself that.

Just in case you have not noticed, we seem to have a little bit of problem attracting FDI. Oh BTW, Singapore is younger than our 50 years on “independence” and they make do with little to no resources…hell they even need to get water from us.

You are right, Malaysia is doing fine…. just not as good as all our neighbours.

And why if you ask me? The country is rich in resource…only issue is, it has only been …how would you put it….”mismanaged”? Ask yourself that the next time you buy a nice car, and wonder what the (at least) 10-20k premium that went into whatever additional statistical documentation crap was for. For the betterment of the country or to line someone else’s pocket?

The country wont be bankrup if they remove taxes and road taxes on cars. Our market for new cars isn’t big enough to make a dent. Whatever they forgo in car taxes they will make it back in additional spending (GST..etc) and generation of additonal consumer demand which would stimulate GDP.

you just spoke my mind!

When you link your MyKad to your bank account, it will act exactly the same as your current bankcard/credit card which needs pin number confirmation. If you’re okay with having your petrol pump transaction using bankcard/credit card, why not MyKad? It is essentially the same tech and mind you, ever more secure as it has additional security in the form of finger print data embedded into the chips. You don’t get that on your bankcard/credit card.

If this system is develop by a third party, it is their job to implement it (with oil companies), not the government. The government can at most, spread the words only…

that what your ignorant type of thinking….dont blame other…no body can overwrite your mykad data without your fingerprint verification…correct me if i am wrong…and for the bank account link with mykad…why not…even with your bankcard you must enter pin number before making any transaction…its the same application…not just swipe n go…plzzz i can accept good critics…but baseless nonsense critics…yuks… and lastly i am agree with the idea of 1 kad for many application if the implementation is good….

Now, my friends, Malaysia is like a business-magnet attracting business here and there just because we smack a twin-monument right in the heart of KL.

————

Riiight. Keep telling yourself that.

Just in case you have not noticed, we seem to have a little bit of problem attracting FDI. Oh BTW, Singapore is younger than our 50 years on “independence” and they make do with little to no resources…hell they even need to get water from us.

You are right, Malaysia is doing fine…. just not as good as all our neighbours.

And why if you ask me? The country is rich in resource…only issue is, it has only been …how would you put it….”mismanaged”? Ask yourself that the next time you buy a nice car, and wonder what the (at least) 10-20k premium that went into whatever additional statistical documentation crap was for. For the betterment of the country or to line someone else’s pocket?

The country wont be bankrup if they remove taxes and road taxes on cars. Our market for new cars isn’t big enough to make a dent. Whatever they forgo in car taxes they will make it back in additional spending (GST..etc) and generation of additonal consumer demand which would stimulate GDP.

I notice a very convincing discussion above there, good for the sake of the conversation BUT, keep on removing subsidy, taxes, duties and et-cetera … we will end-up BANKRUPT! No money to implement major projects, no money to provide security, no money to do this to do that… When everything is so mess-up, blame it on the Government mis-managing it. Very clever of you, brilliant-Malaysians (I clap my hand). Good, I’m seeing our “mini-parliament” is in motion.

The good news is they’re seems to be a lot of you knowadays. The bad news is, we are not going anywhere with it. We are totally in dead-lock. In mathematical terms, if you can’t resolve a simple equation the answer will comes out ERROR. As I mentioned earlier, there are more troublemakers than problem-solvers these days. If this ideas comes from my fellow countrymen, I’m reading your comments with high enthusiasm and analyze the the pros and cons BUT, I notice some foreigners (Singaporeans, Indonesians and Thailand maybe?) in our “Fuel Subsidized Blog” ??? Eh… conflict of interest ??? Trying to turn the table so Malaysians do not need to approve such policy.

Personally, MyKad is still plausible. I say we go for it. Who says politics is about making glamorous decision; its all about making the right one. I’m sure the big “G” is doing right this time. Don’t get me wrong, I ain’t a “G” guy. If the opposition comes with a better idea, I’ll support them. It’s all about serving the “rakyat” needs and not the individual’s needs. The only issue we are valid to discuss is how to implement it. Many thanks and appreciation to bloggers who actually criticize and provide better ideas. Owh yeah, there’s one thing; In the late 1980’s when Tun Dr. Mahathir announced he wants to build the world’s tallest building (KLCC) so it could catapult KL into a higher iconic level the oppositions said; its a waste of money. Now, my friends, Malaysia is like a business-magnet attracting business here and there just because we smack a twin-monument right in the heart of KL. Before that, Malaysia is the LESS known country in the South-East Asia. Apart having a very medium-size populations (estimated 27 millions populations) we still manage to bring constant development just under 50 years. Not to mention with the 3 major races who’re in total conflict at all times and political “tsunami” lately, we still can grab hold to peace and prosperity. I wonder how long Malaysia could last with “semua orang nak jadi politicians” attitude. Just my 2 Ringgit and 50 Cents.

Yeah rite!
You can ask all the guys around in the blog who even dare to input or upload the simplest thing, let’s say Medical Infos.
I dare to say less than 10% dare to do so.
And now we input our bank details in it?

Private company or GLC or what company needs G approval before proceeding. No matter what it will involve G. So u r saying not G problem?? U sure arr??

It seems u really support to the all n 1 card thing, so u fully utilized your IC then??

What about cars bought at current prices… owners will be fuming. Maybe can decrease and increase at slow speed, taking up to one year or so. Cadangan oni ar.. coz I see a lot of people kinda suggesting this too.

1st: remove all fuel subsidies, over a period of time, no sane person can take a sudden increase in oil price overnight, plus the amount of hoarding before unsubsidying it.

2nd: remove all taxes on the cars coming in from overseas countries, i am talking AFTA! government. so don’t bloody delay what is inevitable. start making our lives better for god’s sake.

3rd: increase in fuel and prices no dount we have to increase our wages to counter the effects. the savings from taxes can be used to offset the high fuel prices.

besides, with the fuel price at market rate globally, see if there will be cases of foreigners using our fuel.

this is not my opiniated view. this is what the rakyat has been wanting for a bloody long time. just the damned government keep delaying and pushing it here and there.

proton/perodua can die for all i care. once AFTA sets in, no one will buy local makes anyway. i rather have money in my pocket than national pride.

learn from the british, even they are willing to give up their concorde plane project.

underpayed and overworked for far too long.

see if anyone will complain about fuel prices hikes when their pay is increased.

want to stop people from stealing your subsidized petrol. stop subsidizing and offset by removing excessive tax. stop burdening your own citizens just to save a few bucks from theft from other countries. if they want to steal it they will get it one way or the other even with useless security provided by epetrol or mykad. remove the subsidy and they wouldnt have a reason to steal.

less tax on cars means people can buy what car they want and be more concious of how they spend thier own money. i.e drive less, spend less thus managing thier own finances better instead of asking the government for handouts.

“Please implement it right a way big “G”! Any other problems we will adjust it later” — this is a total recipe for expensive disaster. everyone knows this is the government’s favorite way to do things and we’ve seen the terrible results time and time again.

Spending millions on elaborate and easy-to-break technologies isn’t the answer. The answer is to remove the incentive for people to abuse the subsidy. This is by removing it and compensating by removing excessive tax on cars and spares. Government spending is offset by savings, same for rakyat. Of course this would make it harder for certain connected people to make money, but haven’t they stolen enough by now?

I’m seeing a mini parliament in here (PaulTan.Org) which is good for the sake of the discussion BUT if we over do it, then we will never find the solutions. We have witness a lot of bloggers/forumers who just know how to do cheap talk or blind-bashing, but not actually a problem solver. I actually read all of the forumers’ reply from the first post until the latest one so I don’t have to repeat things which are said earlier or I might slow down the thread by asking the same question over and over again or I might bring out a stupid blind-bashing statement. These are simple rules for a true forumer, please take your time reading thru all the replies (only the good ones) only then you can start posting yours. We are gather here in PaulTan.Org to provide our very own careful thoughts for the betterment of Malaysia automobile industry (as well as other “small-small” irrelevant topic). Unfortunately, they are “small” numbers of forumers who just know how bash but do not provide a better solution for the problem. It certainly defeats the purpose for setting up this Forum in the first place. Hence, we should be having an intellectual discussion in here. I personally think MyKad is still plausible (as stated in my earlier posting). Hopefully the blind-bashing-without-proper-reasoning stops now.

all this just for 1 or 2 thousand in savings a year. when your paying like 30-60k in car taxes when u buy a new car or old. or risk getting mugged everytime to take public transport.

If implemented, NRD will be teribbly crouded by ppl coming for IC replacement. How durable our IC is?

Can my 13 years old daughter buy petrol with her IC?