GM Europe’s Insignia has been getting good reviews
Well, the conditions for Fiat to take up a stake with the now bankrupt Chrysler has been fulfilled, and Fiat has been quick to look to something else in order to hasten the move towards consolidation of the auto companies during this recession.
Many have predicted that there will only be a few automakers left after this slump, with the rest either eliminated or merged. Datuk Syed Zainal’s suggestion for Proton to merge with Perodua a couple of weeks back would put Proton under the Toyota umbrella via Perodua’s Daihatsu shareholding, which is in turn owned by Toyota.
Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Vauxhall and Opel could share B and C platforms
Anyway back to Fiat and the New Chrysler – a third piece of the puzzle that Fiat is said to be interested in acquiring is GM Europe, which covers Opel, Vauxhall, and other GM European operations. The resulting company would be a giant with annual sales of 6 to 7 million cars, which is claimed to be similiar to how much the Volkswagen Group puts out. Saab is pretty much a separate thing, and at least 10 parties are interested in acquiring them at the moment, according to Saab spokersman Eric Geers.
The new company is temporarily given the codename Fiat/Opel and is described by Fiat head Sergio Marchionne to be a “marriage made in heaven” as Fiat and Opel could consolidate their B and C segment cars to use the same platforms, while Fiat continued with its small A-segment platform and Opel’s D-segment platform. Apparently Fiat offered 1 billion Euros for Opel, but GM considers the amount too small for the moment. No updates if any other follow-up offers were made.
Volkswagen’s platform-sharing success is an inspiration to all
But of course whenever there’s any news to do with GM you have to listen to what their unions have to say. Opel senior labor leader Klaus Franz says if the Fiat and GM Europe merger does happen, between 9k to 10k jobs may be lost via factory closures and other restructuring. He then accused Marchionne of trying to build a global carmaker financed with German and American taxpayer money.
Volkswagen’s CEO Martin Winterkorn also warned that achieving and maintaining real synergies between multiple brands while increasing volumes and lowering costs is a very difficult thing to do. He added that Volkswagen’s platform-sharing strategy started all the way back in 1992 and it was alot of hard work and planning for it to be the success that it is today.
And Fiat and GM have already been in some sort of alliance from the year 2000 to 2005, which ended in GM paying over US$2 billion to get out of the arrangement because it was not going very well. At that time Fiat was burning cash at a rate of nearly US$2 billion a year, accumulating $14 billion in net losses during the 5 year period. It was the time of the Fiat Stilo which went nowhere, and a Fiat Punto that shared components with an Opel Corsa.
Whatever happens, it’s really one thing to build a huge empire that could be the second largest carmaker in the world and perhaps the largest in the future, but another to structure and manage it properly once formed. Just look at GM and its mess of brands. You could end up flourishing like the Volkswagen Group or just another GM or DaimlerChrysler.
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exactly, it is extremely hard to diversify into other brands without knowing the cost and benefit of it. there's also integration and stuff like that.
both related and unrelated diversification has pros and cons and will no doubt take alot of time and money to complete.
but if it does work, we can expect Fiat-Chrysler to be as big as VW.
although i wont risk putting my money into any big companies with the current situation yet.
Fiat, Chrysler and Opel / Vauxhall ?
All this brands are not well known for build quality and reliability…
BTW: Fiat's CEO Marchionne announced today, that after a possible merger 10 factories will be closed in Europe, inkluding Vauxhall in Luton und Ellesmere Port (England), GM/Opel in Antwerp (Belgium), Fiat Pomigliano and Termini Imerese (Italy) and the whole engine / powertrain production in Germany…
Initially I thought the idea of merging Proton&Perodua together is weird.
But with a little more thorough thinking about it,
somehow I find that it makes sense.
Perodua can utilize Proton R&D departments,
and Proton can achieve the needed sales volume to get the benefit of economy of scale.
And the platform sharing strategy can be deployed in between them as well.
And also parts sharing between the two.
All these cost saving measures should be able to benefit local car industry.
Just that as Paul said the Toyota holdings in Perodua would be the biggest obstacle in realizing the idea.
And I don't think Toyota will quit without taking their own car design out from Perodua.
Also it seems like the government don't want Proton to get hold by foreign companies too. Which is evident from the last Volkswagen&Proton talk.
Khazanah eat up those shares in Perodua?
But how about those Toyota cars in Perodua's product line??
Ahh its complicated. LOL. Just my little opinion on that.
Wait A minute if Proton merge with Perodua then toyota will get free lotus…
Wow what a joy for toyota no need to buy lotus but can get free from merge…
Lotus already using Toyota engine.. So even Toyota get free lotus also not so surprice, as in Japan a lot of tuners also tune Lotus. Somemore Toyota is a big company which can produce a lot of money… With a lot of money come better R&D n development…
Look at VW group, a lot of the companies under it flourish after a few years taken by them.. Take example Skoda. Now it is famous in Europe…
Toyota already own Lotus in the late 80's/early 90's. The WRC Celica is tuned by Lotus. And no, the merger is not gonna happen, they dont need Proton R&D as Toyota Technical Centre for AP is at Thailand and Australia. And their plant at Thailand is way bigger than Proton, biggest outside Japan (with cycle of 1.5 min per engine) and already complement by Indonesia's TMMIN Innova powertrain & press shop. And Philippines have the transmission plant for ASEAN. They dont need us. We are not cost effective & we dont have enough market size for that (plus our pop is 28 mil, nothing to shout about). Keep dreaming as VAG or MMC is your best bet. P2/PMSB is a lost cause to fight for. Its officially an arm of TMC now. Sooner or later, Proton will be absorbed. At what price and which co is the question, but for the time being, to enter negotiation Proton have the good value and Khazanah should get good returns (maybe Proton/Khazanah in turn might buy some MMC shares).
Perodua – Proton merging or platform sharing?
Merging would mean disaster to Proton, the toyota cheap gene will absorb into Proton as it has done to Subaru lately… Toyota will only expand its scale of production of its own technology and ignoring the Subaru's…. Say no to Perodua-Proton merging… if that would mean Toyota will scrap the whole idea of Proton and replace it with its third world platform and model.. no technology, only name and 'reliability' and we all will be left in the dark…
I don want another myvi or vios looking car on the street.. it sickening… really…
Fiat has been advancing in term of quality since the new panda… hard to believe? it is true.. vauxhall has the means machine, while fiat has the sensible. while crysler has the name and luxury… this would complete the whole model fleet…
the would market vauxhall as the maniac, fiat as the family and crysler as the luxury.. that would work well i guess..
ya great… later on they can take GM too… and Alfa can build an Alfa Hummer H5 to compete with all those weird looking premium crossover.
It will be like dictator take over your property, Perodua is doing fine, why they should merge with Proton? They can take more sales from Proton why limit them self? What a lame excuse of getting rid of competition. Synergy would be a better proposition to Perodua.
If both Proton/Perodua really did merge, you can expect to pay so much more for Japanese/Continental cars and higher price for national cars. Yet the public transport still not come in time.
Proton & Perodua merge into one is good idea as we no need so many national car companies in the limited market. the main resistance is from government (not rakyat), as we hv seen the vw/proton deal blow off last yr. in short… it is just POLITIC.
lets put national pride aside and talk about globalization, let not go into the syndrome of able to take a person out of the kampung but fail to take the kampung out of the person. its business, and what DSZ is talking dollar and cents. lets not brush off TMC for being keen in proton, they are losing 70 over billion, if merging P2 and P1 can give then a couple of hundred million more, it looks good on the balance sheet, then there is market trend, brand image and stakeholders confidence, during down time, if you are able to do a publicity stunt like fiat/crysler, it give the shares a big boost and reposition its global brand image.
its not about viva vs savvy, not myvi vs saga or exora vs p2 mpv, its about hundred thousand of jobs in shah alam and kulim, its about hundreds of dealers and thousands of saleman, its about insurance guy, the finance guy, the service centre technician, its about the sticker supplier for safety notice at the car door, its about the car manual printer or the ad agency… so again, let not jump into things and thinking TMC is taking national pride lah, big boys take over, the colonization of big business conglomerates, its none of these but instead DSZ is trying very hard to keep the jobs of his staff in this trying time (same goes to the chairman of TMC while drumming his finger to buy of not to buy P1) while listening to all the brainless mongrels barking senselessly.
i disagree with proton and perodua merger… a big no no to toyota
but i do welcome VW…
[quote comment="236151"]Toyota already own Lotus in the late 80's/early 90's. The WRC Celica is tuned by Lotus. And no, the merger is not gonna happen, they dont need Proton R&D as Toyota Technical Centre for AP is at Thailand and Australia. And their plant at Thailand is way bigger than Proton, biggest outside Japan (with cycle of 1.5 min per engine) and already complement by Indonesia's TMMIN Innova powertrain & press shop. And Philippines have the transmission plant for ASEAN. They dont need us. We are not cost effective & we dont have enough market size for that (plus our pop is 28 mil, nothing to shout about). Keep dreaming as VAG or MMC is your best bet. P2/PMSB is a lost cause to fight for. Its officially an arm of TMC now. Sooner or later, Proton will be absorbed. At what price and which co is the question, but for the time being, to enter negotiation Proton have the good value and Khazanah should get good returns (maybe Proton/Khazanah in turn might buy some MMC shares).[/quote]
since when that toyota ever own lotus??? lotus get paid by toyota to tune their cars does not mean toyota own lotus…. get ur fact right…
[quote comment="236192"][quote comment="236151"]Toyota already own Lotus in the late 80's/early 90's. The WRC Celica is tuned by Lotus. And no, the merger is not gonna happen, they dont need Proton R&D as Toyota Technical Centre for AP is at Thailand and Australia. And their plant at Thailand is way bigger than Proton, biggest outside Japan (with cycle of 1.5 min per engine) and already complement by Indonesia's TMMIN Innova powertrain & press shop. And Philippines have the transmission plant for ASEAN. They dont need us. We are not cost effective & we dont have enough market size for that (plus our pop is 28 mil, nothing to shout about). Keep dreaming as VAG or MMC is your best bet. P2/PMSB is a lost cause to fight for. Its officially an arm of TMC now. Sooner or later, Proton will be absorbed. At what price and which co is the question, but for the time being, to enter negotiation Proton have the good value and Khazanah should get good returns (maybe Proton/Khazanah in turn might buy some MMC shares).[/quote]
since when that toyota ever own lotus??? lotus get paid by toyota to tune their cars does not mean toyota own lotus…. get ur fact right…[/quote]
Its not the whole Lotus Cars, but they have substantial amount of shares together with GM that resultant in the great handling cars of Supra and MR2. Also that explains the close relation that made the Toyota engines made possible in Lotus cars.
paul, why dont you write something on the +/- on p1 and p2 merge..
very interesting to study the possibilities, the consequences even though we already now p2 ceo syed hafiz is not in favor to do that..
with big players merging with each others, sure p1 will be far2 away from the new definition of economic scale crated by those bigger giants..
take politics and political interests out of it , and p1 p2 merger could work , in market conditions like now , consolidations are key , jus like how the local banks bought each otherout few years back , having one big player is alot more efficient than having two small players , if done corectly and on purely business logic , both p1 n p2 can keep their identity intacts , perfect example is the PSA group , their cars all looks diferent , bt underneath , thers alot of sharing . . ……it can work and should work , bt as i said , as long as theres even 0.5% politics in it , thn it wont go through….
Fiat story is abit strange though , because few years ago , Fiat got alot of bailout money from the Government to stay afloat , how come now sudenly now on a buying spree ?? and their product lineup is really not much , take the Fiat 500 out , others all not selling in big numbers at all , maybe Chrysler can make use of Fiats small fuel efficient engines , bt in US car sales is so bad across all brands , big or small engine cars , whos gonna buy ??
too many factors anyway , jus my milo ice worth of opinion !
If the merger can do good to the workers and general public en masse, I certainly welcome it. I hope the merger will create more jobs, NOT eliminating them. This is what important and critical at this juncture.
[quote comment="236151"]Toyota already own Lotus in the late 80's/early 90's. The WRC Celica is tuned by Lotus. [/quote]
Not true. The WRC was entirely made by Toyota Motorsport GmbH in Germany. They're now building Formula 1 racing cars btw. (scroll down): http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/about_toyota/rd/index….
Lotus use Toyota engines for US market and K Series engines for UK market. Not sure which engine we get.
Can merge, but is Fiat really that rich to afford all those brands? I know they sell Ferrari's not sure if that can help though
what car is that in the 2nd picture? it looks like the previous generation Nissan Murano for the U.S. market but the logo looks like a Proton logo? anyone know? thx.
Cam tak pro engines in P2? LOL, P2 won't gain anything from merging with P1, all they'll get is a worst image… atleast their myvi's are doing well now.. can't see a cam tak pro myvi selling better than what they sell now, infact might be even worst… P1 might gain by cutting the competition and thus end up producing even worst quality cars.. competition is good… they need to know they're cars are shit, and the only reason ppl buy them is that they have no choice, (as the goverement policy to save P1 by making other cars more expensive…)
[quote comment="236287"]what car is that in the 2nd picture? it looks like the previous generation Nissan Murano for the U.S. market but the logo looks like a Proton logo? anyone know? thx.[/quote]
It's a Lancia: http://www.lancia.com
The logo in fact look like the Proton logo..
One point to add for Mr Johan's doubt, every merger will see slash on work force, less expenditure and share resources. Not entirely about sustaining jobs, rather a rational way to maintain a healthier company for long term. Proton is unlikely going up for sales at this moment, if it does, it would be under VW by now. Neither does Perodua willing to merge unless the management is from Perodua.
Technical point aside, Proton's Tanjung Malim plant itself is capable of produce the combine output for Proton and Perodua sales. Will the new CEO keeping 3 manufacturing plants even after merger? Or it may turn out just like Fiat in progress of closing more plants in Europe.
Btw, Mr Johan is too rude to have conclude with that sentence isn't he? How is the moderation work over here?
[quote comment="236344"]Cam tak pro engines in P2? LOL, P2 won't gain anything from merging with P1, all they'll get is a worst image… atleast their myvi's are doing well now.. can't see a cam tak pro myvi selling better than what they sell now, infact might be even worst… P1 might gain by cutting the competition and thus end up producing even worst quality cars.. competition is good… they need to know they're cars are shit, and the only reason ppl buy them is that they have no choice, (as the goverement policy to save P1 by making other cars more expensive…)[/quote]
probably it's the other way around… what proton can gain from perodua?? bumper engineering technique (done that) rebadging technique (pass that)… else??? if perodua to merge with proton.. toyota will pull out for sure… if they did.. then there's nuthing left at perodua… proton on the other hand have everything than perodua need to become an actual car makers… from RND to high tech assembly lines….