Comments on: Volkswagen to take up 10% stake in Suzuki? http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/ Paul Tan on the Automotive Industry Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:59:39 +0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: 4G63T DSM http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247486 4G63T DSM Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:35:07 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247486 Diesel sells for the same price as petrol (in France anyway), but gives about 20% more range. Its important to not confuse the blatant consumptionism (did I jsut make that word up?) of the Americans with the Europeans. Europeans can be quite frugal Diesel sells for the same price as petrol (in France anyway), but gives about 20% more range.

Its important to not confuse the blatant consumptionism (did I jsut make that word up?) of the Americans with the Europeans. Europeans can be quite frugal

]]> By: Chris Chong http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247418 Chris Chong Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:05:10 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247418 4G63T DSM said, "The reason why K cars have not made an impact in Europe is becasue of thier lack of small diesel engines." At their current fuel economy and CO2 emissions, a diesel option wouldn't make THAT much of a difference for K cars in Europe, i think. i may be wrong (again) but i think the currently available K cars in Europe already meet the emissions levels that put them in a lower tax category. I can relate to your experience with narrow european streets - but cars like the old Punto and current Panda are probably as easy to park as a K-car, simply because they are flat sided and have corners which are really easy to judge. I've got a Multipla myself (hence my rabid defense of European cars) and I can park it in ridiculously tight spots that even MyVi owners might have difficulty with - only because of clever packaging and really good mirrors. I agree that cars should get smaller, though. Scottloeb, Due to badge snobbery, i doubt the Tata Nano will make much of a dent in the European market - which is a shame. And after they spec it up for European standards, i wonder if it's going to cost much less than a Kelisa... 4G63T DSM said,
“The reason why K cars have not made an impact in Europe is becasue of thier lack of small diesel engines.”

At their current fuel economy and CO2 emissions, a diesel option wouldn’t make THAT much of a difference for K cars in Europe, i think. i may be wrong (again) but i think the currently available K cars in Europe already meet the emissions levels that put them in a lower tax category.

I can relate to your experience with narrow european streets – but cars like the old Punto and current Panda are probably as easy to park as a K-car, simply because they are flat sided and have corners which are really easy to judge.

I’ve got a Multipla myself (hence my rabid defense of European cars) and I can park it in ridiculously tight spots that even MyVi owners might have difficulty with – only because of clever packaging and really good mirrors.

I agree that cars should get smaller, though.

Scottloeb,

Due to badge snobbery, i doubt the Tata Nano will make much of a dent in the European market – which is a shame. And after they spec it up for European standards, i wonder if it’s going to cost much less than a Kelisa…

]]> By: scottloeb http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247389 scottloeb Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:49:17 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247389 Yup, agreed, K-car works in Europe metro, KL, SG but not in BKK, JKT (due to the road condition, traffic congestion & public transport works better - BTS/motor taxi haha) and of course if youre living in Houston, Jeddah, Maine, Miri, Sibu, Tawau or Kuala Krai. For Paris, Metro is preferred but the looks and smell of it is not. Yup, diesel for K-car might compliment the european market but the thought of driving diesel kancil (which already underpowered unless its a tD) might be a lil turn off. And Chris you're right, the European regulation might bring the car extensively heavy and not economical, but we will see how Tata Nano European specs works in VW-Opel-Ford dominant market. Yup, agreed, K-car works in Europe metro, KL, SG but not in BKK, JKT (due to the road condition, traffic congestion & public transport works better – BTS/motor taxi haha) and of course if youre living in Houston, Jeddah, Maine, Miri, Sibu, Tawau or Kuala Krai. For Paris, Metro is preferred but the looks and smell of it is not. Yup, diesel for K-car might compliment the european market but the thought of driving diesel kancil (which already underpowered unless its a tD) might be a lil turn off. And Chris you’re right, the European regulation might bring the car extensively heavy and not economical, but we will see how Tata Nano European specs works in VW-Opel-Ford dominant market.

]]> By: 4G63T DSM http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247384 4G63T DSM Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:45:06 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247384 And just to show how big this small car market is, Toyota sells about 100,000 Aygos a year in Europe. This doesn't account for the other 2 sisters, the 107 and C1. In France, people tend to favour the C1 (I see a lot more of them in comparison to the Aygo and 107), maybe partly because it's the cheaper of the trio. The reason why K cars have not made an impact in Europe is becasue of thier lack of small diesel engines. And just to show how big this small car market is, Toyota sells about 100,000 Aygos a year in Europe. This doesn’t account for the other 2 sisters, the 107 and C1. In France, people tend to favour the C1 (I see a lot more of them in comparison to the Aygo and 107), maybe partly because it’s the cheaper of the trio.

The reason why K cars have not made an impact in Europe is becasue of thier lack of small diesel engines.

]]> By: 4G63T DSM http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247382 4G63T DSM Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:34:56 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247382 To err is human. The point is the Europeans (save for some funky french niche manufacturers) have never saw it profitable to build smaller cars. Say what you must, but the K car is a marvel in packaging. And yes, technology flows from both ends of Toyota-Daihatsu partnership. But its highly likely Toyota small cars are built with Daihatsu knowhow, in terms of engines and chassis development, lessons no doubt learnt from K car development. I don't see why Toyota would invest in R&D when its partner already has the kinks sorted out. And yes, for your information, I have driven a Yaris (both generations). It isn't a "small" car. And yes, K cars are made for a specific reason, but in this day and age with corporate average CO2, it pays for manufacturers to have really small cars. As for easier to drive and park, if you spend a few days in a metropolitan city like Paris (scarce parking, very narrow streets), you'd understand the logic of small cars. There are Smarts on every street. (getting road-taxed silly based on HP also helps....). I had touble with my rental 307 hatch...so much so I rather just take [i]le metro[/i]. To err is human.

The point is the Europeans (save for some funky french niche manufacturers) have never saw it profitable to build smaller cars.

Say what you must, but the K car is a marvel in packaging.

And yes, technology flows from both ends of Toyota-Daihatsu partnership. But its highly likely Toyota small cars are built with Daihatsu knowhow, in terms of engines and chassis development, lessons no doubt learnt from K car development. I don’t see why Toyota would invest in R&D when its partner already has the kinks sorted out.

And yes, for your information, I have driven a Yaris (both generations). It isn’t a “small” car.

And yes, K cars are made for a specific reason, but in this day and age with corporate average CO2, it pays for manufacturers to have really small cars.

As for easier to drive and park, if you spend a few days in a metropolitan city like Paris (scarce parking, very narrow streets), you’d understand the logic of small cars. There are Smarts on every street. (getting road-taxed silly based on HP also helps….). I had touble with my rental 307 hatch…so much so I rather just take [i]le metro[/i].

]]> By: Chris Chong http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247375 Chris Chong Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:54:46 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247375 gaaaah....! i've erred again. Didn't see the bit later about k-cars. I still think the bulk of my argument stands, though... gaaaah….! i’ve erred again. Didn’t see the bit later about k-cars. I still think the bulk of my argument stands, though…

]]> By: Chris Chong http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247372 Chris Chong Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:50:38 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247372 Ah, it appears i've erred again. Just saw the little stub about k-cars... Ah, it appears i’ve erred again. Just saw the little stub about k-cars…

]]> By: acbc http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247334 acbc Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:54:13 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247334 Well. Since Proton itself is full of crap from lousy suppliers to Napoleon-business inside, it is fair for VW to clean up the company before taking over. I highly doubt VW will close Proton for no reason. However, the G and M got scared and decided to jump ship first. What a bold move... and a cowardly one. What do they have now? Nothing. 1. So-called Campro based on old Mitsubishi technology 2. No common-rail diesel engine in sight while competitors are offering now 3. No turbo-charged engines yet. Hell, even Naza is offering to public now 4. No new models for Waja, Perdana, Wira, Putra, Juara and Arena. Not even a 4x4 truck Competitors are enjoying brisk business (Item 2 and 4) due to lack of competition from Proton. What kind of business are they doing anyway? They prefer to fight in the already competitive small and medium cars segment with unattractive prices and lack of new technology. Well. Since Proton itself is full of crap from lousy suppliers to Napoleon-business inside, it is fair for VW to clean up the company before taking over. I highly doubt VW will close Proton for no reason.

However, the G and M got scared and decided to jump ship first. What a bold move… and a cowardly one.

What do they have now? Nothing.

1. So-called Campro based on old Mitsubishi technology
2. No common-rail diesel engine in sight while competitors are offering now
3. No turbo-charged engines yet. Hell, even Naza is offering to public now
4. No new models for Waja, Perdana, Wira, Putra, Juara and Arena. Not even a 4×4 truck

Competitors are enjoying brisk business (Item 2 and 4) due to lack of competition from Proton. What kind of business are they doing anyway? They prefer to fight in the already competitive small and medium cars segment with unattractive prices and lack of new technology.

]]> By: Chris Chong http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247267 Chris Chong Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:15:14 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247267 Scottleob & DSM, The only reason Japan makes K cars is because there's a tax bracket for it. There's absolutely no reason why a european manufacturer would compromise their designs just to fit a standard which they don't need. Are you guys implying that you'd actually choose a Suzuki Alto / Daihatsu MIRA over a Fiat Panda / Renault Twingo??? In any case, these European cars don't have that much more footprint, but quite a bit more space thanks to clever packaging. And (surprise), the K cars aren't at all easier to drive! Once you come down to a certain size, making a car any smaller doesn't make it any easier to park or drive, since parking bays and roads will not be made any smaller / narrower than they are. And and and... "Fiat 500 = Supermini" The PUNTO is a supermini... the Fiat 500 / Panda are city cars. Have you actually seen one of these in real life or are you just quoting stuff you've read online. "Toyota small cars = Daihatsu" So the Yaris and iQ are Daihatsus...? And while we're on that topic, i think you're making a big assumption that in the Daihatsu /Toyota partnership, the technology only flows from Daihatsu to Toyota... And if you want to be really fussy, the article didn't say anything about K-cars, did it? No? Scottleob & DSM,

The only reason Japan makes K cars is because there’s a tax bracket for it. There’s absolutely no reason why a european manufacturer would compromise their designs just to fit a standard which they don’t need.

Are you guys implying that you’d actually choose a Suzuki Alto / Daihatsu MIRA over a Fiat Panda / Renault Twingo??? In any case, these European cars don’t have that much more footprint, but quite a bit more space thanks to clever packaging. And (surprise), the K cars aren’t at all easier to drive!

Once you come down to a certain size, making a car any smaller doesn’t make it any easier to park or drive, since parking bays and roads will not be made any smaller / narrower than they are.

And and and…

“Fiat 500 = Supermini”

The PUNTO is a supermini… the Fiat 500 / Panda are city cars. Have you actually seen one of these in real life or are you just quoting stuff you’ve read online.

“Toyota small cars = Daihatsu”

So the Yaris and iQ are Daihatsus…?

And while we’re on that topic, i think you’re making a big assumption that in the Daihatsu /Toyota partnership, the technology only flows from Daihatsu to Toyota…

And if you want to be really fussy, the article didn’t say anything about K-cars, did it? No?

]]> By: bolo http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247237 bolo Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:10:39 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247237 If I am not mistaken, K cars in Japan are restricted to city driving only with due to their light weight and small size. In Europe all cars must be able to be driven safely at super highways, perhaps that's why european car makers, with the exception of SMART, generally don't make anything smaller/lighter than supermini class. I have driven a K class mpv on highway, it is scary. I can FEEL advance air turbulence from buses and lorries BEFORE they overtake me, rear view mirror is almost redundant :p If I am not mistaken, K cars in Japan are restricted to city driving only with due to their light weight and small size. In Europe all cars must be able to be driven safely at super highways, perhaps that’s why european car makers, with the exception of SMART, generally don’t make anything smaller/lighter than supermini class. I have driven a K class mpv on highway, it is scary. I can FEEL advance air turbulence from buses and lorries BEFORE they overtake me, rear view mirror is almost redundant :p

]]> By: 4G63T DSM http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247205 4G63T DSM Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:25:00 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247205 Chris Chong said, June 29, 2009 @ 8:14 am “The small little cars that Suzuki and Daihatsu are so good at building at seems to be a secret art that no one else can master.” I suppose VW, Fiat, Peugeot, Renault, Opel, Ford and Toyota are completely rubbish at making small cars, eh? --- Actually not untrue... None of them have small cars like the Japanese K cars. Toyata small cars = Daihatsu Peugeot 107 = Citroen C1 = Toyota Aigo = Daihatsu technology VW Polo = Supermini Fiat 500 = Supermini Renault Twingo = Supermini Opel Agila = Supermini Ford Fiesta/Mazda 2 = Supermini They basically have nothing under supermini class. Not because they can't build them in a technical standpoint, but can't build them at a price that is competitive to what Diahatsu can do them at. That my friend, is thier "magic". Chris Chong said,
June 29, 2009 @ 8:14 am

“The small little cars that Suzuki and Daihatsu are so good at building at seems to be a secret art that no one else can master.”

I suppose VW, Fiat, Peugeot, Renault, Opel, Ford and Toyota are completely rubbish at making small cars, eh?

—
Actually not untrue…

None of them have small cars like the Japanese K cars.

Toyata small cars = Daihatsu
Peugeot 107 = Citroen C1 = Toyota Aigo = Daihatsu technology

VW Polo = Supermini
Fiat 500 = Supermini
Renault Twingo = Supermini
Opel Agila = Supermini
Ford Fiesta/Mazda 2 = Supermini

They basically have nothing under supermini class.

Not because they can’t build them in a technical standpoint, but can’t build them at a price that is competitive to what Diahatsu can do them at. That my friend, is thier “magic”.

]]> By: scottloeb http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247203 scottloeb Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:15:33 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247203 Chris, The small car market that Paul is talking about is K-car class, with length not more than 3.4 m, width not more than 1.48 powered by 660 cc engines. Tell me which VW, Fiat Renault & Opel compliment those specs? And in Japan, Suzuki is the leader in K-car, followed by Daihatsu (part of Toyota group). Toyota increase its stake in DMC in the late 90's to fight with Honda who do have its own K-car, but not much on commercial (which is covered by Hino Motors - gain part of Toyota). And knowing Japanese, they are really very good in making small car works, even Smart might look stupid. Chris,
The small car market that Paul is talking about is K-car class, with length not more than 3.4 m, width not more than 1.48 powered by 660 cc engines. Tell me which VW, Fiat Renault & Opel compliment those specs? And in Japan, Suzuki is the leader in K-car, followed by Daihatsu (part of Toyota group). Toyota increase its stake in DMC in the late 90’s to fight with Honda who do have its own K-car, but not much on commercial (which is covered by Hino Motors – gain part of Toyota). And knowing Japanese, they are really very good in making small car works, even Smart might look stupid.

]]> By: ericfoong81exe http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247194 ericfoong81exe Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:35:07 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247194 It is reasonable for those big players to invest into those existing market dominated car manufacturer to gain excess into that market due to new market price's policy. Things is getting cheaper thanks to the huge amount of competitor yet costing is gaining in terms of factory overhead and raw material. What a bad news for manufacturer, this is the faster, easier and cheaper way to penetrate a new market. It is reasonable for those big players to invest into those existing market dominated car manufacturer to gain excess into that market due to new market price’s policy. Things is getting cheaper thanks to the huge amount of competitor yet costing is gaining in terms of factory overhead and raw material. What a bad news for manufacturer, this is the faster, easier and cheaper way to penetrate a new market.

]]> By: Chris Chong http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247190 Chris Chong Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:14:59 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247190 "The small little cars that Suzuki and Daihatsu are so good at building at seems to be a secret art that no one else can master." I suppose VW, Fiat, Peugeot, Renault, Opel, Ford and Toyota are completely rubbish at making small cars, eh? Nice try... “The small little cars that Suzuki and Daihatsu are so good at building at seems to be a secret art that no one else can master.”

I suppose VW, Fiat, Peugeot, Renault, Opel, Ford and Toyota are completely rubbish at making small cars, eh?

Nice try…

]]> By: Tiadaid http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247186 Tiadaid Sun, 28 Jun 2009 21:42:46 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247186 acbc said, June 29, 2009 @ 12:51 am See? VW business is beneficial for everyone. Only Proton is stupid enough to reject them. I wonder when Proton will introduce common rail engine for their cars? Another 20 years? The future is common rail diesel! Look at Renault Kangoo 1.5D. Small and fuel efficient plus lots of torque at low revs. RM 50 equals to 600kms! That is why they should have JV with VW to obtain that technology but sadly… nothing else to say. ---------------------------------------------------- You think the terms set by VW when they wanted Proton is similar? If they only want 10% its okay, but they want full control and won't give a guarantee that they wouldn't close down Proton & take over the factory. That's why it failed acbc said,

June 29, 2009 @ 12:51 am

See? VW business is beneficial for everyone. Only Proton is stupid enough to reject them.

I wonder when Proton will introduce common rail engine for their cars? Another 20 years? The future is common rail diesel!

Look at Renault Kangoo 1.5D. Small and fuel efficient plus lots of torque at low revs. RM 50 equals to 600kms!

That is why they should have JV with VW to obtain that technology but sadly… nothing else to say.

—————————————————-

You think the terms set by VW when they wanted Proton is similar? If they only want 10% its okay, but they want full control and won’t give a guarantee that they wouldn’t close down Proton & take over the factory. That’s why it failed

]]> By: acbc http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247169 acbc Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:51:02 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247169 See? VW business is beneficial for everyone. Only Proton is stupid enough to reject them. I wonder when Proton will introduce common rail engine for their cars? Another 20 years? The future is common rail diesel! Look at Renault Kangoo 1.5D. Small and fuel efficient plus lots of torque at low revs. RM 50 equals to 600kms! That is why they should have JV with VW to obtain that technology but sadly... nothing else to say. See? VW business is beneficial for everyone. Only Proton is stupid enough to reject them.

I wonder when Proton will introduce common rail engine for their cars? Another 20 years? The future is common rail diesel!

Look at Renault Kangoo 1.5D. Small and fuel efficient plus lots of torque at low revs. RM 50 equals to 600kms!

That is why they should have JV with VW to obtain that technology but sadly… nothing else to say.

]]> By: below100k http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247163 below100k Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:08:44 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247163 emon..i saw one hummer H1 at a showroom in kuala terengganu...i think its brand new car...now hummer can be driven in m'sia..hoho emon..i saw one hummer H1 at a showroom in kuala terengganu…i think its brand new car…now hummer can be driven in m’sia..hoho

]]> By: emon http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247160 emon Sun, 28 Jun 2009 15:35:32 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247160 Paul tan! out of topic. i cant stop myself from not saying this. today i saw 20 - 30 ARMY HUMMERS refueling at petronas near LDP. theyre f**kin awesome and theyre are brand new~!! woohoo are they ours or thais? or s'pores? gone tax money gone~! Paul tan! out of topic. i cant stop myself from not saying this. today i saw 20 – 30 ARMY HUMMERS refueling at petronas near LDP. theyre f**kin awesome and theyre are brand new~!! woohoo are they ours or thais? or s’pores? gone tax money gone~!

]]> By: f1 http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247159 f1 Sun, 28 Jun 2009 15:13:44 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247159 well positive mind always win, proton follow like suzuki well positive mind always win, proton follow like suzuki

]]> By: katak http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247158 katak Sun, 28 Jun 2009 15:08:54 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247158 maybe proton regret to join with them now look like too late proton maybe proton regret to join with them now look like too late proton

]]> By: Kamal http://paultan.org/2009/06/28/volkswagen-to-take-up-10-stake-in-suzuki/#comment-247155 Kamal Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:49:34 +0000 http://paultan.org/?p=15924#comment-247155 That great news for India. That great news for India.

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