When Honda first announced that it would start using dual clutch transmissions in its cars, I thought that while Honda was late to the game, perhaps it was because it wanted to perfect the technology before introducing it. After all, the Japanese are traditionally more conservative, and we all know dual clutch transmissions – especially the dry lubrication variants – can be problematic in hot climates.
It seems that Honda has hit a snag with its dual clutch transmissions, specifically the 7-speed one in the Fit Hybrid and Vezel Hybrid. It has issued a recall for over 80,000 cars fitted with the transmission, to have either its software updated or the transmission changed.
Honda will first check each DCT’s gear change history. For vehicles with a gear change history that indicates the non-engagement of gears, Honda will replace the DCT component in order to mitigate against the possible damage to internal parts of the DCT and then change the control software program. For vehicles with a gear change history that does not indicate non-engagement of gears, they will provide advice for the use of vehicles as an interim step and begin changing the software control program. In the meanwhile, deliveries of all affected models have been suspended.
This is actually the third time it has done a recall for cars fitted with its dual clutch transmission, with the first two being in October and December 2013. Both are also related to defects in the software program. In the first recall, some users experienced a blinking of the transmission warning lamp, the display of the service notification indicator on the meter display, an inability to start driving when first gear does not engage and the ability to drive only with odd-numbered gears when second gear does not engage.
In the second recall, due to an incorrect software program for the DCT control computer, some vehicles equipped with the 7-speed DCT could have experienced the non-engagement of gears, a delay in the ability to begin driving, the blinking of the transmission warning lamp, and the display of the service notification indicator on the meter display.
More details below.
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honda attempts to replace conventional AT with other alternative (e.g., CVT in CITY) comes with failure(under malaysia climate. now DCT also….
i bet Honda should just comes with 6 @ 7 speeds conventional AT. nothing wrong with this.
plenty of wrong with 7 spd AT. that means there’s no innovation spirit in honda. i applaud honda who’s willing to take the risk into dual clutch. vw did that despite issues and they are improving the design day by day. that’s call innovation. nothing new is perfect. u need to venture in there and correct as it goes. in the next few years, u’ll get a perfect dual clutch and leave the uncle toyota behind by a few miles.
talk nonsense about innovation. What is most important is consumer safety and less expenditure on their wallet.
Pandai talk big but when your car breaks down and you have to fork out so much money and time waiting for your car, then you know.
You like to use new aircon or new handphone with new innovation that always kaput and hang ah?
If no innovation you will still be driving 3 speed AT till now, like the one in Wira
They are busy hybridising conventional engine with other power source. But why not focusing on hybridising the transmission?
I really enjoy manual transmission. It just that only during congestion I would appreciate automatic. So why not have auto tranny working along side manual tranny — with the auto focuses only on 1st gear, and the manual handles the rest. Basically, automate only the first gear.
“Cakap senang la woii..”
Yeah, I know. But you never know this comment could inspire any engineer out there. LOL.
How about AMT like was found Savvy, isn’t it a hybrid transmission?
mazda has done just that as part of its skyactive technology where the new automatic transmission achieves high level of performance while reducing lag with improved economy.
mr driver, the dual-clutch is a marriage of both auto and manual tranny. hope u do some reading there before posting.
Innovation Rubish, ur comments fits ur name. Rubbish. Don’t blow up the DCT issue as though every DCT car in this planet breaks down.
So, do u actually own a DCT car or are you just rocking on the armchair and wanking while typing rubbish replies?
Paul tan can you give us a list of cars with dual clutch in Malaysia so that we consumers can avoid. Some of us are old fashion and prefer reliability than latest gadgets that are problematic.
By the way does Mercedes or BMW use dual clutch?
Mercedes A class, CLA, B class, GLA.
BMW M3 M5, the old E90 335i
Rubbish. Who says torque converter based ATs equals no innovation? And do new ideas necessarily mean it will be better as long as enough time is taken to improve the design? Some solutions are inherently flawed, and dual dry-clutch transmissions happen to be one of them. Every single manufacturer without exception is facing problems with their implementation of dual dry clutch gearboxes.. Getrag, BorgWarner and now Honda. Dual wet clutch gearboxes on the other hand are very reliable.
For the low-cost segment, nothing beats torque converter based ATs in terms of reliability and maintenance costs. Volvo has moved away from Powershift-based (Getrag-supplied) twin clutch transmissions to 8-speed torque converter based ATs. BMW’s sticking to ZF torque converter transaxles for the reliability, efficiency and overall smoothness. GM is looking into a new generation of 9-speed Hydramatic torque converter ATs for their upcoming global cars. All these torque converter gearboxes would feature efficient torsion dampers that provide early mechanical lockup in every gear, in addition to low-loss vane pumps to reduce hydraulic pumping losses. Their shift times will be almost imperceptible while offering less than 10% difference in efficiency compared to a manual gearbox. Couple that with torque converters’ excellent creep and engine-braking characteristics, they are obviously the better choice for mainstream vehicles. Torque converter ATs also have lesser mechanical wear compared to DCTs and CVTs, and thus have much longer service lifespans.
are u a mechanical engineer or just a copywriter?
Engineer and tinkerer, not just a bullshitting basher
BMW’s ZF transmision also have a lot of problems. Just so you know.
what nonsense, who says 7-8 spd AT’s aren’t innovative? Tried a BMW recently?
What about that manual gearbox with an automatic first gear clutch thing from sometime ago? Thought I read that on paultan a while ago but would that cause issue in hot weather as well?
you mean automated manual gearboxes like Renault’s AMT (equipped in Proton Savvy) and Alfa Romeo’s Selespeed?
yeah… both didnt do well in malaysia.
Both Savvy’s Renault AMT and Alfa Selespeed is quite reliable actually. But car owners and even Proton technicians didn’t understand the “robotised manual” concept back then.
Proton technicians was also not properly trained to pinpoint source of failures and service these gearboxes (like putting normal ATF instead of Renault’s fluids. That’s why problems only arise after some service intervals).
Go to a Renault specialist instead. Cheaper too. Mine has lasted 5 years without faults.
That was quite long ago for the CVT case, the current Hondas (Jazz Hybrid, CR-Z, Insight) are all using CVT gearboxes but has no complain so far.
bro,
previous Honda City was using CVT with 7 speed virtual ratios but current one is back to torque converter type and 5 speed.
Why you think Honda would revert from CVT technology back to conventional? go find out yourself the reasons why.
That’s why u don’t see IDSi variant in current City and Jazz… My colleague sold her City IDSi for RM30,000.00 @ Oct last year. Pity her, my wife dinasour Vios E 2005 disposed at RM45K, yes just abt 6 months ago. Very poor value due to it’s relibility…
So buy honda sometime also more risk…
Yea , they reverted back to the 5 Speed Torque converter due to their CVT gearboxes are having problem last time. But for now, they have started using CVT again on their hybrids cars, I’m sure they would have solved the issue before putting CVT onto their cars again.
Good to know, better late than sorry b4 it arrives to Bolehland
Excuses by sushi. VW DSG no issues at all. 100% reliable. 6 or 7 speed, dry or wet. All okay one. Why Honda got issue?
You must be jokin’!
VW also recall their DSG, Malaysian model is not affected because it imported CBD.
more info http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/motoring/2013-03/20/content_16323553.htm
VW also avoiding DSG for small car for future car
(I read the report but forgot the website)
Yeah u really must be joking.. just sent my car last week to check on weird sound when changing gear from 1-2-3.. SC just said this is normal for DSG.. yeah right… I’m gonna keep harassing them..
because VW under DRB Hicom maa..
itulah pasal.
The Proton Spirit – Biasalah.
No issue…only your brain got issue..
some said the most reliable dual clutch units are those in the nissan gtr, is it true?
The answer is no, because the 2008 model suffer transmission problem due to the internal component cant handle engine power and torque.
The gearbox updated in 2011 and continue until this year model
in short, avoid dual clutch gearboxes like the plague no matter what car maker made them, unless you like going to workshops.
put it simple – any gearbox with sophisticated electronics (sensors etc) are highly exposed to risk of failures compare to a manual gearbox.
it is similar to the engine side. while EFI is proven to be more efficient than carburettor but once there is a breakdown you will never know what to do with it (except sending back to SC and come up with costly bills).
on the other hand, Nissan Sunny, Toyota Corolla LE and Proton Saga Orion has proven that simple engines have better reliabiity.
The most reliable units are the DQ500 7 speed wet clutch dsg by Audi and Bugatti. That has NO history of faults related to those suffered by dry clutch models
Well as I expected.
Another Global Player who join the Technology Race.
End Up:
Honda –> Reliability problem.
Ford Ecoboost –> has caused all ford become the worst reliability in American consumer report 2013. 5 out of 10 least reliability = Ford Cars.
VW –> Famous Gearbox issue and Top 10 lowest reliability engine in UK report.
Who else want to join the race?
Or we can just continue the ‘If it aint broken dont fix it’ plan of Toyota, continuing the trusty decade old 1NZ-FE and 4-speed torque-converter powertrain to the outcry of every automobile forum on the net worldwide.
Honestly, I still have no qualms on the continuation of the current Vios powerplant.Even today the performance and figures is still competitive for your everyday roundabout appliance.
[Bring in the downvotes!], the only and biggest fault I find with the Vios is the safety offering at its price.
Agreed. If you ignore all the hate, it’s actually a decent car. Could use more safety features and/or a lower price tag.
But business is business for UMW. Profit profit profit.
Good powerful car that is not reliable.
U think A Car is a Toy?
Agree with u. I dont have any problem with the dinosaur age engine & 4 speeder. As long as it works & reliable, its acceptable. HOWEVER, throwing at us ridiculous pricetag & stingy safety kit is just outrageous. For that, ill try to keep my distance away from UMW toyota’s product
Proton power window! Oh wait, you mean global player…
Joke aside, it seems like the automotive world has gone for quantity instead of quality nowadays.
To be fair, the Wira in my family had just one power window break down in almost 20 years, maybe it’s just luck. Let see how long it takes for the Fiesta’s gearbox to cause problem.
I thought Ford F-150 full size truck is the states best seller all for last 20+ years? Why American still accept the failure products? are they mad or something?
Ford F-150 has not been using Ecoboost Engine.
Ford F-150 is rated as a vehicle above average reliability…
It’s like hell and heaven comparing Ford F-150 and other Ecoboost Ford Cars..
But apparently latest news saying Ford F-150 will adopt Ecoboost engine.
If Ford never learn from it’s Ecoboost engine’s mistake, it gonna be a disaster for Ford.
loosing Ford F-150 as crown sales vehicle.
80,000 units wealth of data…
Thank you for ur involuntary participation in honda’s early adopters trial…
HONDA!!!!! THE POWER OF DREAMS!!! Yeahyeah!!!’
I guess Honda learned a thing or two regaeding crowd participation from proton, MOU benefitted both parties
Its happening. From what I know, many many makes with dual clutch transmissions, be it Ford, VW, and now, Honda are all having some form of issue with the transmission.
We thought Honda would have fixed it (the reliability part) but I guess not so.
To be honest, do we really need dual clutch? Think about it, the normal ZF8HP torque converter auto that many makes are using, like VW/Audi, BMW, Jeep and all are very very fast to shift. Almost dual clutch like. And cause of the more common torque converter tech it seems to have less issues in terms of reliability. And most of these issues are seen to be electronic issues that lead to incorrect gear selection I think. Why not use the newer, faster shifting automatics and refine the dual clutch, then release it. No point making a product that is first to the market but also first on the list of unreliable products.
sudonano, u really dono what’s happening out there when u say torque converter is almost as fast as dual clutch. obviously u haven’t driven a dual clutch before. i hate armchair critics. only talk and type, no substance.
Not all dual clutch shifts as fast. Ford’s pretty slow, driving one for almost 2 months now, not exactly armchair? It’s as slow as most automatic, probably slower than BMW’s ZF gearbox. (I’m armchair about this one though!)
I do like the feeling of DCT more though. Just doesn’t like how torque converter works, it stresses me out for some reason.
Oh really?
I have driven the Powershift “dual clutch” transmission. On a 2.0 Sport + Focus. And honestly, it was slow, crappy and undecided. Go try it yourself.
Have you driven a new BMW recently? of course not, cause then you wouldn’t say such baseless statements like above. The ZF8HP is regarded as one of the best transmissions made in recent years, with many singing praise, and some relating it to almost as fast as a DCT.
For me, after driving the Sport Automatic 8 speed in BMW cars (read 328i M sport) it feels amazing. No jerks, no mistakes, smooth fast and snappy shifts. Go try one then tell me who is the armchair critic here.
farq, before you comment on others, may I ask how many ZF 8-speeds have you driven? I’ve tested them in a VW Touareg 3.0 TDI and the BMW 316i and I concur sudonano’s opinion that it shifts impeccably smooth. Not as impercible as the 6-speed or 7-speed dual-cluthes found in VW DSG equipped cars (in which one I own, the rest I have tested and reviewed), but far better than 4-speed and 6-speed torque converters as found in most automatics nowadays (which is probably what you meant; in which case, you would be correct but would be out of context of the original posting).
kenso, exactly my point. After trying both the standard auto 8 speed in normal BMWs and the Sport Auto 8 speed in the sportier BMWs (if equipped), it is safe to say that the torque converter auto has moved on very far. Cannot deny not all are snappy, I do notice some of the Aisin ones are a bit slower than the ZF ones (like the AWTF-80C aka AWF21 transmission as used in the Citroen DS5, Peugeot 508 and some Land Rover products), but they are not bad.
DSG is fast, period. Its instantaneous, almost, but there are now normal autos that are so smooth and fast shifting, almost like DSG. But after my Ford Powershift experience, I learnt 2 things,
1. Sadly, I will not buy a Focus until they improve the undecided transmission.
2. Not all DCTs are the same.
Cheers.
I have driven VW’s dsgs, and they are no match for the BMW ZF “old-fashioned” 8 speed autobox. And the BMW one doesn’t break in hot weather. No wonder many have praised it as the “World’s Best Gearbox.”
I think everyone missed the point here. One of the main reason why OEMs decide on using DCTs (besides the very fast shifting) is the fuel consumption. And the DCT simply trumps other transmission in this area. The europeans really prioritise this when buying a vehicle.
The ZF 8HP is clearly the most reliable transmission but I need to say that the best transmission I’ve driven so far is the Getrag DCT of the BMW M5.
driven 2 of those ZF. we’re talking about how fast, and there’s a difference with DCT (in particular the DSG). i haven’t driven the powershift but seems to be a crappy implementation of a DCT based on what u guys mention.
Aiyo … So serious lor … Hope my City CVT not going down on me :)
If the Japanese cant solve the infamous dual clutch woes than who can??
the chinese can.
Calling all people in the world (where applicable) to opt for manual transmission… Its maybe an old tech but proven to be reliable, fun & engaging to drive. Plus, your left leg won’t feel left out!
any Porsche pdk users?
Guys, I don’t know about you but I won’t touch anything to do with 7 Speed & DSG …. It just make a perfect chemistry to endless problem. But at least Honda is bold to issue a recall immediately unlike some German maker trying to void warranty to cut loss.
Leon Loke, you are wrong. All cars that had problems with DSG, namely Ford and VW did recall their cars immediately to fix the problems. They did so progressively in different markets. Only difference is Honda has less knowledge about DSG since it is essentially European technology. So they recalled as soon as possible, since there is nothing else they can do, anyway!
Yoyo, the Japanese are not known for innovation these days, so if you are looking for innovation in engine and transmission tech, you would have to look at Europe.
Not siding any manufacturer here but I have to do some justice for Toyota or any other Japanese car manufacturer, regarding to what you said.
Toyota does innovate. They are the first to make the 8-speed automatic gearbox, first to mass produce LED headlights, brings up the idea to use both direct and port injection in engines (which Audi is using now in its 1.8L turbo engine found in the A5 Sportback), brings us hybrid tech with reasonable price although they did not invent it, brings us solar-charged cars (current gen US-spec Prius), gives us automated parking system, working on new kind of battery with Panasonic, building cars in factories that release “polluted” water that is cleaner than that found in any river in Japan and others.
Mazda? Skyactiv tech is the answer.
Nissan? VQ engines are so tech-packed that I would need an essay to explain them all.
‘brings up the idea to use both direct and port injection in engines’
Invented by Mercedes Benz in 1937… ;)
Toyota to recall the latest Prius models and possibly even those sold in Malaysia due to software problems:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-12/toyota-to-recall-about-1-million-priuses-in-japan-ministry-says.html
Toyota got the technology, they just dont want to apply on mass production vehicle due to cost reason. If they can produce LEXUS LFA and with decade of F1 experiences , do you think they dont have the technology in DCT and Turbo charged engine ?
Sometimes I wonder how the heck Proton’s Punch CVT hydraulically actuated single clutch does not suffer from these hydraulically actuated single/dual clutch gearbox issues…
Proton dont make gearbox.
it’s supplied by 3rd Party.
same CVT as used in Mitsubishi.
Good Gearbox, but lousy engine.
It’s not a hydraulically actuated single clutch. It is a solenoid-controlled hydraulically-actuated multi-plate clutch pack with two clutch pack sets – one for forward gears, one for the reverse gear.
In theory, it should be an awesome solution since it is far more compact than a CVT that is front-ended by a torque converter e.g. Jatco and Aisin CVT gearboxes. But in practice, it lacks the smoothness of a torque converter (that soaks up torque transients), has poorer creep due to half-clutching the forward clutch pack, and lends to poor engine braking characteristics.
The VT3+ variant has been enhanced with stronger internals and better clutch adaptation to improve creep and engine braking while reducing transmission noise and harshness. When paired with a better engine, its potential is definitely better. Proton’s upcoming NFE engine might finally do justice to the VT3+ gearbox as far as naturally-aspirated application is concerned due to a flatter torque curve across the rev range.
Mitsubishi uses Jatco CVTs that pair a torque converter with CVT internals, it’s very, very different from the Punch CVT’s architecture.
I drive a Suprima. I have no problems with the transmission. In fact CVTs are growing on me and I have no qualms getting another car with a CVT.
The answer to your questions is, NO, Toyota does not have the technology yet. They have been late to absorb new technology since the 1990’s.
Toyota High tech, is proven with Lexus,
especially Lexus LFA.
Define High Technology:
High performance, high efficiency, Low defect and High Reliability.
Lexus is no.1 Reliability in 2013 American Consumer report.
with the definition of high tech,
I only acknowledge Lexus s high tech car.
Teething problems is to be expected when brand new tech is being introduced for the first time. At least they are admitting it, and recalling them with new transmissions or updated codes/apps. In this case, the Fit & Vezel (wow, Honda has already sold 80k of both in short time) are only the 2nd (correct me if im wrong) Honda to get it after their motorcycle (the VFR 1200F). Next in line will be Acura RLX Sport Hybrid, so maybe thats why it hasnt gone on sale yet.
Hopefully, all issues ironed out before it reaches Malaysia :) The Americans, Europeans & Japanese can happily become our guinea pigs.
nice
I have a honda fit and its having a problem of not reversing, it engages but can’t drive. And also its flicking on (D) when driving.
I need gearbox for Vezel honda 2014 immediately
kindly send detail that how i can get it
regards
skypeid shbZ1001
Hi Guy, on this city hybrid 2017 any comment good or bad?
on the road never see the car yet but test drive is good.
Vezel hybrid gearbox problem ru3