Malaysian Peugeot franchiseholder Nasim Sdn Bhd has revealed more details on the new locally assembled Peugeot 407 set to make its debut in Malaysia soon.
We saw an initial list of specifications slightly more than a month ago listing goodies like Xenon HID headlamps, and a premium 240 watt JBL 8.1 sound system with boot-mounted subwoofer, electric front seats. These are all unconfirmed except for the HID lamps and 17 inch wheels.
Nasim now reveals that the 407 will get a new engine with Peugeot’s VTi variable valve timing. The CBU model offered here comes with an EW10J4 engine without these features, putting out 137 horsepower at 6,000rpm and 190Nm of torque at 4,100rpm.
The new car will come with the EW10A engine, putting out 140 PS and an impressive 200Nm of torque at 4,000rpm, one of the highest torque figures around for a non-performance 2.0 litre engine. The engine will be mated to a revised gearbox.
The CKD Peugeot 407 will be launched next month and can already be booked now with a RM1,000 booking fee. Nasim Sdn Bhd already has almost 200 bookings for the car to date.
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Now, the Peugeot is more Malaysian than Perodua new Kembara. Is it CKDed in Gurun plant?
they could just called this a Naza and we’ll end up with a national executive car brother for the Perdana
Most people afraid to get this due to high maintenance and spare parts cost.
Nasim should package this and also provide list of spare parts cost to assure potential customer pocket friendly to own this car (unless it is really expensive, so they hide, until you buy)
Unless you drive a Kancil, Saga or Wira, you will get ding’ed with high spare part costs regardless.
Don’t imagine Waja and Gen2 parts come cheap as well.
However we have a catch22 situation. Parts can be only cheap when you have high installed base. If no one buys the frenchie due to parts, how will they bring in parts at less cost? If anything blame the currency. 1 Euro = RM4.98
I don’t imagine Benz and Bimmer parts are any less expensive.
I would like to try that engine up some time. Test drove the 2.0 CBU a while back while cross shopping the Accord, and found the 2.0 quite lethargic despite very good comfort and ride characteristics. The 200Nm engine would be a good edition to this package. Still waiting for the excellent French diesels to make its way here though.
However, the new 408 is suppose to be launched next year or 2010 at the latest, and possibly spearhead Peugeot re-birth in North America.
Good job Naza! We can get to see more 407 now! 200 bookings can be said are quite impressive for a non-luxury europe brand!
this car is very long & wide…
yesterday i saw one at KLIA carpark, took almost 10 minutes to get out of a tight parking spot…
pity the driver, he looked so relieved after he made it out…
another nice affordable choice added to our buying list.
However, why 2.0L? Where is the 2.2L?
2.0 on a 4 speed will be very lethargic car to drive.
totally agree with 4G63T DSM……
and why should care about the cost of spare parts if really like/appreciate the car?
maintenance cost is nt an important thing if u really like ur dream car..as long as u take care of it..so..less u pay for the maintenance fee..if u want a really cheaper spare part..go 4 national car..p1 and p2 kan ade..spare part murah..but u nvr gt the cmfort ride frm conti car..trust me…
the spare parts price sure gonna kill one.. never change and not going to.
look at the warranty package.. even 3years/100k km is not ‘safe’ enuff’..
Parts, particularly mind-bogging electronic parts, have the likening to go bust after 3 years. .. some not even 3 years. warranty claims might be challenging, at least.
but my focus is the little sentence “The engine will be mated to a revised gearbox.” Seem unimportant at all at first..
This is the most risky part of the car, not the engine.. the gearbox.
Revised gearbox… emmmm.. what the hole is that, actually? And why revised? .. he he he..
Originally, 407 used Peugeot in-house gearbox, the super-duper infamous AL4. It is perhaps (and should be by now bestow with the title of..) the most unreliable modern automatic gearbox in the world (possibly due to simple design inadequacy, or lack of R&D and testing in hot climate or just complex stupidity and arrogance).
So potential buyer, be very careful on this one… if you know others that have interest in purchasing this car, kindly warned them about this and asked them either to educate themselves and get the actual story of what Naza means by ‘revised gearbox’… if its the same AL4 but just revised gear ratio.. then… ahak.. ahak..
hint hint..
they need to provide excellent (or extra) cooling to the gearbox w/o sacrificing anything else. standard cooling available won’t do any good no matter what… believe many have heard about ATF cooler?
but it is a lovely executive saloon car that i dare say better than the defacto choice of Malaysian, the camry and accord (which all 3 now are more or less, in the same price bracket).
what a shame.
i like pugs. was planning to get a 206 in the past as a 2nd car but didnt somehow or the other, and when the 307 came out, went to seriously look at that as well.. love the packaging of the whole car, but after doing much research on the internet and reading through as many forums as i could, I decided not too, as the negative comments and problems(especially electrical) faced by owners scared the heck out of me..
Same gearbox, improved with bigger oil cooler. Don’t go and spread rumours by speculating before launch. It’s defamatory and you’re being tracked here. Anyway the engine is rated at 200Nm of torque at 4,000rpm (even the new Accord 2.4L, according to the US site is 219Nm only!) so I don’t believe it will be lethargic, it should be quite good! Even the Honda CR-V is 190Nm (190Nm & 4,200rpm as it says on their site … should be ‘at’ or ‘@’ though) but no one goes and calls it lethargic right? Japanese is always #1 Ichiban-ban no matter what! Hahahaha!
Finally as for 2.2L, the cost vs. difference will mean most Malaysians will buy 2.0L anyway. So many asked for 206 Manual but when it’s here all the talkers aren’t buying so we have to be realistic about all this and the best specs have to be offered to the buying Malaysian public.
Not sure if Malaysians will buy a lot of this car. Premium executive which is already few years old. Goodies used to lure potential buyers to the car. I am not too sure though. New accord coming soon.
Yes intermilan! Go whine somewhere else
I am looking forward to the car! If youre not, we are not interested to listen hahaha
intermilan,
Don’t think it’s fair to judge th AL4 this way, it’s an auto adaptive automatic, more advance than conventional automatic. PSA have spend billions to developed it, read here (plus the features and function of the AL4):
http://users.bigpond.net.au/skystar/peugeot307/technology.htm
and yes, there has been several problems, particularly the heat and then the solenoids, but I “read” that the first solenoid manufacturer/supplier for the AL4 has gone bankrupt due to their failure, it’s been replaced Borg Warner’s solenoid. As for the heat, don’t you find it wierd it happens more on the 407 rather than the others? I was once told it could possibly due to the load on the 407. Anyway, the NEW AL4 used on 308 and 207 are new version, looks more compact and nice, was told the new AL4 has solved most of the issues.
As for the current AL4 used on 407, as told by lowprofile, I believe they have studied and research somewhat from previous 407 problems, thus, they provides a revised version, such as bigger oil cooler.
Personally, I “suspect” another reason for the failure is the ATF change interval as I understand from some members, some workshop change the ATF only at 60,000KM or 2 years, this is the interval for european countries. Our country shoud be 30,000KM or 1 year, similar with Australia.
Some Bestari owners encounter the “Sport + Snow” mode warning, which usually indicates the ATF oil requires changing/overheat, that’s also after about 1 1/2 years they haven’t change the ATF. So, to be safe, it’s best to change it every 30,000KM or 1 year, whichever comes first.
Next is, I also read in many old post that many owners just ignored the problem or bypass the warning by restarting the car to reset the warning, even some workshops did that. In the longrun it could potentially damage the gearbox.
Finally, most if not all local and japanese makes here change their ATF every 20K or 40K, usually recommended 20K or 1 year. So this could be another reason since they are better maintained. As understand from my Vios friend, the Super ECT gearbox requires using only specified ATF by Toyota, and he change his ATF every 20K (default 40K, but mechanics has adviced him for 20K).
intermilan..
mind ur word..dats all i can say…
lowprofile, andy, carlover & ray,
thanks for the advice…
and carlover, i’m not whining. facts can stand on it own.
is what i wrote here about the AL4 problem (cooling problem) untrue?
have i highlighted this issue in unfair manners?
i don’t believe what i wrote is rumour and/or defamatory. far from it.
the solenoid is another issue.. do PSA (in Malaysia) do a recall … i can’t remember that… so is that means if u kena, nasib la? or is it not enuff to warrant a recall?
the replacement cost for the solenoid is >RM1000 … 1+ years ago. do all out-of-warranty AL4 user had to bear this in the name of wear n tear?
and Andy, what i made to understand, owner can change the ATF oil even at 10,00km interval if they wish, its not gonna help in avoiding the premature death of the g/box. the root cause is high temperature of the ATF oil leads to degradation of the oil. changing it as frequent as you can sadly won’t assist much in solving the problem, as the excessive heat is always there. the hot ATF oil will just dissolve the internal oil seals one way or the others. and the g/box ‘breather hole’ is another thing to look out for.
renault scenic mark II sold in malaysia circa 2000-2003 also been affected. i heard TCEAS attempted to resolve it by ‘tropicalised’ the g/box but result are mixed.
the possible way to remedy it is to bring down the ATF oil temperature (via more efficient oil cooler) and/or uprate the oil seals… and that is just what i highlighted before.
for existing owners stuck with AL4, its near to impossible to uprate the g/b internal oil seals, so the viable alternative is installing an ATF oil cooler… best after overhaul or re-built job. that another rm1000 job, at least. and the risk of doing this job is on owners. Even this might lead to unknown problems. Who knows?
btw, which one of you guys currently have or had used car (Peugeot, Citroen or Renault) using this gearbox.. not andy, that for sure (no pun intended).
Naza/PSA might actually done something by declaring ‘revised gearbox’ but what do they actually do when they said that? it was not mentioned clearly here. that what its all about. the simple fact is AL4 in ori 206, 307 and 407 were hampered by heat problem that then manifest itself in various forms.
To be transparent and offer effective permanent solution is the only way to fight back. not intimidate small fish like me.
is the truth so painful and therefore need to be hide away?
hey, i love the 407. it is just the g/box (and a few others parts) need to show and have reliability.
imagine if Malaysian buy the 407 in thousands (they will..), and after a while got hit by g/box problem (if nothing is done to rectify the problem in the first place).
Won’t that be a bigger issue to Peugeot future here?
I have confirmed that the new 407 will come with a LARGER oil cooler so it should put to rest the issue of the oil cooler overheating.
200 book for dealer ka?……i dont think many people will buy it.
i think many people will buy it.. well.. not in the league of camry / accord (largely due to residual value issue, sadly) but 2,000 unit in 12 months is very much possible.
RM135K for a 2.0L Continental car is unbeatable value, as far as current malaysia market is concerned. of course there are other 2.0 ‘conti’ with price lower than that, ford focus for example, if its considered as ‘conti’ in the very first place. Whatever it is, IMO, 407 ‘deserve’ the above sales figure.
regarding the oil cooler.. let see how large it is vis-a-vis the old oil cooler, its location in the engine bay and what type of cooling system/mechanism employed.
previously it is based on passive cooling principle and this could be a problem in a high temperature engine bay, which are common for Peugeot car (i’m not sure about 407 engine bay temperature thou). however, employing the same principle might offer little different.
Citroen C5 (with similar engine and g/box with 407) has been using a larger oil cooler than 407 (if i’m not mistaken).. has C5’s AL4 g/box encounter heat-related g/box problem?
location of the oil cooler is also very important as placing it near other heat souce (i.e. engine) or in area where cold air circulation is poor or non-existence, beat its very purpose. just check out 206 ‘tiny’ atf oil cooler location to get the taste of what i mean.
usage of an active oil cooler (i.e. water-cooled or air-cooled via a fan – either always on or control by relay … akin to turbocharged-engine cooling mechanism) is much better.
in addition, a comparison of atf oil temperature for the gearbox , previous oil cooler vs. enlarge/enhance oil cooler comparison would help picture how effective or how much temperature been lowered.
then again, what guarantee that we have that the presumely lower atf oil temperature will not do harm to the gearbox anymore? this is also important to note. no point uprating the oil cooler efficiency if the uprating rate is not enuff.
intermilan,
True, I’m no AL4 user, but I never did said I am, clearly, I state I “read” and research, I’m just sharing information. From your statement, don’t you think it’s too overly exaggerated? By simply saying a company doing simple design, lack R&D, and such, clearly from the site I provided, it’s developed with Citroen, and if it’s really a failure, they wouldn’t be using it anymore. Anyway, true that there is problems initially due to heat issue, so does the new lancer CVT, and others which we’re not aware of.
As for helping avoiding premature death of the gearbox, as understand, there 407 owners which hasn’t have any problems before with their AL4, and it’s more common in the 407. How can you say it’s a sure failure? What’s the point of saying this and what does this help? Don’t you think it’s better to try to understand a situation and try to find solution and prevention steps? Is it we must just live with the problems and conclude that “it’s like this one”???
If you try read around AW forums for AL4 gearbox, you’ll find that some argued there’s no need for ATF change, MANY ignored the warning from “Sports and Snow” mode, and thus leads to failure.
If possible, it’ll be good if those past 407 owners can share their experience, how they maintained their gearbox and the rate of failure so we can understand better.
As for the solenoid valve, as mentioned, the previous one before Borg Warner’s, I “read” somewhere that the supplier for the solenoid is the cause of the problem. Of course, for those unlucky to have it failed after-warranty is really a pity.
Also, as understand, the latter AL4 gearbox comes with Borg Warner’s already, but I can’t be sure the one for the 206 and 407 is the old versions or not tough. I was told that the AL4 has gone through many revisions in France, but over here we’re still having old stocks during C&C time.
I’m not AL4 user (no pun intended), but I’m trying to share what I can find and also tries to minimize and resolves the problem. Isn’t it better than “let it be”, or “aiyah, this gearbox is like that one, sure fail”. Is this how you think we should BE?
The truth is painful, but who’s hiding? By doing nothing and keep complaining, saying it’s a failure and it’s like that, isn’t that worst? At least, they tried something on the gearbox. We should actually provide what we know and help them improve the gearbox instead of complaining like that. Don’t you think so?
For future 407 owners, it’s good to let them know about the maintenance of the gearbox and what should they do in case ny of those warning comes up, e.g. “Sport and Snow” mode blinking, according to the manual, they shouldn’t drive above 100km/h. Even the New Lancer CVT suffer from Heat issue but they have a special indicator to warn the user. As understand from what I’ve read before, those limp home mode and such are there to prevent damage to the gearbox and still makes the car driveable to reach destination and send to dealer. It’s not an issue, but to prevent damage done to the gearbox. So, this gearbox actually have many safety features to prevent damage to it, but the owner/driver should pay immediate attention to it in case any of this happen to them.
intermilan,
It’s very sad to know the AL4 has such problem, especially knowing it’s capability and features, and one of the most classy looks. It should be something to be proud of, but then there’s this heat problem and such. But IMO, I would really hope these problem to be fixed and solved, the mechanics to be well aware of it and know it well. When we send in for inspection, they would check the gearbox properly and make sure everything is working fine.
How well this will be carried out, I can’t comment, but I never like Auto Transmission, but I do like the AL4 due to it’s features and looks. I really hope the problems can be rectified and managed well. As I’ve posted in AW Forums, there’s a PDF by Citroen which have done research and study on the AL4 in OZ if I’m not mistaken, they’ve stated clearly the main issue is the ATF and how to go about minimize and prevent the problems. But what do we have here? People just complaining and keep saying there’s no hope???
By the way, as I’m mentioned before, the AL4 in 207 and 308 are the latest versions which supposedly solves most of the problems, it looks more compact and nicer too. Clearly, if the AL4 is such a failure, I don’t think PSA would still use it, they would’ve used other’s gearbox or their older ones or collaboration with others just like their Prince engine with BMW. Some say they are now using the one by Aisin, but that’s the 6 Speed version and it’s not something new anyway.
Anyway, whichever the case, just hope the AL4 problems can be reduced and hopefully solved, and there’ll be more competent skilled mechanics (which is also one of the reason previous AL4 failure, due to ignorance mainly).
intermilan,
I know I’m nobody and a newbie small stone in Peugeot world, and many 407 owners might think and feel “what’s this guy talking when he doesn’t own an AL4 car and start talking and posting about AL4 in forums when we have experience and suffered so much”, etc etc etc etc etc
I suffered a lot on my old car before and have some problems which has never been fixed even bringing to so called expert here and there, it’s frustrating and especially hearing mechanic saying “it’s like this one” and such giving up hope not trying to understand and fix the problem.
When I first known about the AL4, I’m not aware of it’s problem, after I knew about the problems and the owners suffering, I just feel sad and pity for those who have suffered and hope everyone can share and find out the causes of the problem, how to prevent it, and how to fix it. It’s sad to see any car owner having problems with their car, I’m not trying show off or anything, even let says, between your own circle of friends, you friend XXX brand car having problem, won’t you feel sad for him/her and tries to help solve it (I know some who will start teasing which do nothing good at all).
Just my 2 “EURO”, not trying to offend any AL4 owners who has suffered AL4 problems and starts thinking who’s this non AL4 owner talking.
hope and reality is 2 different thing andy.
wouldn’t mind discussing this in details further but .. no legs la anymore, beside, as u point out, there is no point exposing it here. as if ‘they’ gonna do any good thing.
‘Old’ AL4 owners had to just risk doing ‘alternative remedy’ solution e.g. ATF oil cooler, etc.
perhaps, you will only appropriately value what i share if you r in the ‘shoe’.
Would welcome anyone to share here (if there any) .. what PSA, via its agents, had did to assist ‘old’ AL4 gearbox users to overcome the problem in justly n transparent manners?
intermilan,
Of course, hopes and reality is different thing, but you don’t get what I mean, if reality, many things are dissapointing, we always hope for the better.
As mentioned, I’m not an AL4 owner, those who have suffered might be unhappy about me talking so much, but please don’t misunderstand my intention. I hope you understand that I’m just trying to help those whose having problems.
Yes, the AL4 does have it’s problems, but what has been done so far OVER HERE for it? From reading the past postings, as mentioned, many are NOT aware of the ATF change intervals, what to do when any of those warnings light up and continue to drive, etc. Plus, as we all know, there’s not much competent mechanic able to handle AL4 before (not sure about those non-authorised SC tough, as I read recently posted by swoon, there’s a compentent non-authorised SC in Penang).
Anyway, there’re still many ppl driving the 407 and in future too, so let’s hope the new revised AL4 is good and the SCs are competent enough and make sure everything is working in order, hopefully they will do it for past AL4 owners as well.
Do note here that my intention is hoping that these the AL4 owners don’t have to suffer these problem anymore. (If really unlucky *touching high quality wood*, they do encounter, any sort of warnings, they’re aware of what should be done and not ignores it; This will require the SCs and SA to keep the custmer well informed and educated).
yeah, me too.
btw, we are after all care about the same thing.
andy,intermilan
i already ordered my 407 on feb2010….my problem is now how m i going to know if my 407 is using the newly revised AL4 or not…pls help me.
Information from the from the web mentioned over and over again that high temperature breakdown of ATF is the main culprit of auto transmittion failure. In Europe summer last only 3 months. In Malaysia at least 10 months of the year have very hot day day time temperaturet.
Auto transmission is said to work best when ATF is at 80 to 90 deg C. Do you all know that AFT fluid actually goes into the the bottom portion of engine’s radiator. It is for quick warming up ATF fluid to towards 60deg C (critical in winter condition). However if the AFT is at above 100deg C then the bottom portion of radiator becomes the cooling unit as the water in that area would be lower than 80 deg C. The above is good solution for countries that have high variation of season temperature. But for Malaysia which temperature rarely dip below 28deg in day time temperature this may not be the best design.
It was said that ECU will put the cars with auto transmission to limp mode when ATF reaches 150 to 160deg C. But it also mentioned that even before reaching this temperature the ATF already starts to break down.
In most likely hood owners of automatic cars in Malaysia unknowingly and frequently subject AFT in their cars at high operating temperature from 100degC to under 150deg C. This is temperature were ATF starts to break down.The only way to confirm this is to install a temperature on the ATF hose going into bottom of radiator.
it was said that quire a few owners of Proton Perdana had installed external cooler to ensure sufficient cooling for their AFT to avoid auto transmission failure.
In this thread there are comments that new 407 comes with larger cooler for AFT. Is it external fin type cooler that normally placed in front of air con condenser?.
Regards
There are so much talk about Peugeot pros and cons where who, what and why.
To start with the importers are the ones to be blame for this as they are given many options but choose to have highest profit and not reliability and durability in today business. Quality is no longer in their minds but profit over rule the rest. Buy cheap and make big profit and laughing to the bank.
Today, Peugeot do not give a damn to potential buyers and owners. They have one concept you buy and abide to their terms. Those potential buyers GOT to take note that Peugeot give 5 years warranty and free service. Bear in mind that is 3 years warranty and additional 2 years for engine and gearbox. Service is 60000 km or 3 years whichever comes first. Also after 60000 km owners still have to send in regular servicing to have the additional 2 years in force. The servicing is not cheap and they will ways to make you replace unnecessary parts to pay for the blue box. Not everyone know the know hows and being ignorant about cars and rely on them and they would be very happy to have them coming back.
Everything has to be black and white or drafted by a lawyer to have them commit. The Owners manual stipulates very weirdly and can be either side where they can twist around to be against you.
I had a meeting with Peugeot sales and was told that “ANY MOVING PARTS IS NOT UNDER WARRANTY”. Question is what is under warranty???? Is more of a gimmick than anything else. Even the paint is not under warranty is the car moves the paint moves therefore NO warranty.
Walk round the service workshop and realise that SOP are NOT being adhere to. For example, before starting the engine one has has observe the stop light at the odometer and until that red stop sign is off then start the engine. Failure to do so would shorten the lifespan of the ECU which is NOT under warranty the moment the car hands over to the owner. If you are unlucky then you will foot up hefty sum for replacement. Secondly, starting a car with their foot on the floor is another where overtime the camshaft and crankshaft bearing would wear off and NOT under warranty either. Way to test this is when is cold and observe during initial starting.
Because in Malaysia, everyone wants to make a million over night so they get their parts from the CHEAPEST SUPPLIER in town. Today Peugeot parts comes from India, Malaysia, China and Brazil. In fact the engine is from Brazil others are from cheapest suppliers. Quality will put the lion to sleep or extinct.
Look at the older version of Peugeot where the gearbox is from either from France or Germany. They do not have many problems as i saw in the forum. In fact in my opinion Jap gearbox not suited for continental cars. Simply the design and concepts are totally different and somehow do not match. Weight is another issue, so whether is 5 or 6 speed does not make any difference. Quality gearbox don’t come cheap and reliability of gearbox is very important for the car. Those from France and Germany do not have to change ATF for life. Jap gearbox has to and changing ATF is not cheap either.
DSG gearbox is smooth and fast BUT how reliable are they? DSG gearbox is not meant for tropical countries. Ford has started using DSG gearbox and would be facing the same faith as the VW and Audi. Within the warranty fine but once over then owners would be in deep shit if it fails. Worst scenario would be the agent would come out with a reason where owner has misuse it and therefore warranty void. This are some of the things where all of us have to know before buying one.
One should come out with an idea where what ever CKD models it could be customize or BTO(build to order) then such problems would not arise. The cost will vary accordingly. Then one would be satisfied and being con into buying one and leave up with it until the next purchase.