John Oxley of Wheels24, a South African car portal was in Malaysia recently for a visit to the Proton Tanjung Malim factory and to test drive the Proton Gen2 which will debut in South Africa soon.
He recounted his experience on tour in the Tanjung Malim factory and looks like he was impressed with the advanced facilities available there. I would like to tour that place one day too.
Cars that he test drove included the Gen2, Savvy and a Lotus. He seemed to like the exterior look of the Gen2 alot… using words like stunning in his article. The interior was good to him too, and he also noted he had no trouble sitting comfortably in the back.
His test drive experience with the Savvy was equally good.
There’s an error in his article though. Seems that he’s been led to believe the Arena was based on the Waja.
A final quote from him:
The cars are certainly well made, well designed, and offer excellent performance and economy in their class. I look forward to driving them in South Africa.
well it is also a good way to solve all those un-sold potong inventries lining up at the showroom…. better try to lelong them instead of letting them gain spider web ……
They paid him. Period.
I pity the South Africans. They don't know what they're getting in the long run. Any owners of Gen.2 want to comment?
kalu puji saja mesti kena tuduh bayar…. john oxley, u kutuk kaw2 mcm top gear mesti diorang sokong u… itu yg diorang mau
I guess during the tour at Tanjung Malim, he was served by many Pretty women, foods and drink. At the time, someone ask him HOW's the cars, Then he said "The cars are certainly well made (eating the foods), well designed (the dressing of girls), and offer excellent performance (on the bed) and economy in their class (cost nothing and free). I look forward to driving (these women) them in South Africa." ……after that he fall as sleep…..ZZzzzz..zzz.z..z.z.zz…ZZZ.z.
i pity guy like u , could never comprehend the sacrifice everbody gone thru to achive a respectful country as to have an automotive industry to rant about.
i dislike people like u who never appreciate even a slightest improvement in the industry , sure there's a lot of distasteful thing going on but it's just not the reason to keep on blasting on ranting all ur mouth got.
remember, we used to be a buyer nation.we bought thing from other country ,
economicly other country control a lot of thing..that we want.We decided to compete and we need a lot of help from everbody.
U will never be at ur level as today if ur country is not known or respected.within 20 years a lot has change , personally to me having proton is a blessed , it'is the first that actually close up the gap between the rich and the poor.it help our people open up its mind to think bigger , to achieve better.
I not asking for your money or ur support.But ur understanding.
Support our product.Crictic. Can..but positively.
proud owner: the only sacrifices that 'everybody' made are sacrifices made by us when we have to pay for protons which break down and we have to spend our off days at the mechanic. it's clear that proton can make good quality cars like the ones that are exported but just choose to give us inferior cars, possibly to earn more. that's blatantly ripping us off. why?
and how does proton close the gap between the rich and poor? hope you are able to enlighten me on this one.
hey guys get a life, credit's due when credit's due
paul, you always seem suspicious of p1, are p1 that powerful i.e. conspiracy theory type… r u kind enaff to share why?
but you should report a lot on p1.. and p2 2, coz as i see it they (the articles) always attract aloooot interest etc… which in turn more ads income 4 you..
;-)
the quality difference between export and local protons are not a conspiracy theory also. well-known fact what.
paul, import car also rosak lo..
'close the gap between the rich & poor', simple answer, learn at kindergarten tis one, e.g. my unemployed dad got hire as jaga by p1 to look after the unsold cars (as you said la), got money, buy food to family, support kids like u to college etc… off courselah other business hire people but more business more people to hire esp business with the roots mostly local…
;-)
sometime i also seing like Paul oso berat sebelah when related to proton..
for me paul.. u need to be more natural.. no need to comment for better or worst. just be fair..
and oso i see.. almost is tukang kutuk tanpa bukti sahih dan ikut sedap hati saja..
that thing make me sick to visit site anymore.. even i loved your review about another car, etc etc.. but this. p1 p2 stupid spammer etc.. jusst mae my eyes sickss..
and i not p1 fanatic alltheway..
paul, credit’s due when credit’s due
i rate your site the numero uno (currently la..) on automotive issues (not p1 and p2 only), keep up the excellent jobs!
;-)
proud owner said,
August 22, 2005 @ 1:00 pm
i pity guy like u , could never comprehend the sacrifice everbody gone thru to achive a respectful country as to have an automotive industry to rant about.
—> I oso pity guy like u, could never understand the pain of a GEN 2 owner, who saw his power windows 'power down' into the door in just 1 second. Worst, again the same quote "Plotong ma…wat u expect" and he has to pay extra few hundreds just to re-paste his V-kool. Proud owner? yea when you are that lucky to get one without so many problem…thats by luck, not by rant!!!
Jake: that hardly closes the gap lah. maybe makes the gap a bit less wide only :P saying it closes the gap really gives too much credit hehe.
i know import car rosak. but proton's export cars rosak so much less than proton's local cars. a friend of mine drives a Satria 1.3 UK model. compared to my Satria 1.6 local model I can really see the difference. his car is older than mine by few months. his air cond vents all still very nice. my car's air cond vents the 'blades' all pointing different directions and cannot be adjusted already hehe.
btw thanks for the compliments. hope i can keep it up! :)
paul, doesnt it seems the -ve attitude at proton, eon, their service people reflect on us also as a nation, including us..
just check the above entries and mine also….
hahahahaha… we are all so -ve….
how about people in indon (remember haze?) and thai, they assemble (or built) our toyotas, are their attitude better than us?
can singaporean assemble/built my car? they're more +ve people…
;-)
it's true we have a very negative view towards proton but recently it's been improving. look at the proton savvy accident photos here. there are actually some people who praise the car hehe.
galant: thank you for your advice. i know i have to be neutral. trying my best not to let my own experience with my satria take control of my emotions when i write.
i suppose this is what differenciates me with professional journalists. i'm trying though. :)
This group of South African will feel the pain of getting this "Gentu" soon,god bless them
the gen2 is the most brilliant piece of engineering coming out from PROTON ! i am a gen2 owner n i love it to pieces !!
i'm gen2 owner too, i love my car, my baby my best car so far!
paul , where do you stand regarding p1 issue?do support it..
do you dislike it because it's local..or u just have a first impresion prisonned forever because of your x-satria?
Or because now u can afford higher prices car makes u jerk at p1.
nothing personal but just curious.
I hope the gen2 they export to South Africa wont MELT under the burning hot african sun….heheheheh…got some stories from 1st batch of gen2, the rear lamp melted…hear say only…lets hope so……
Proud owner/Jake:
Please enlighten us about these:
Cheaper proton sold overseas compared locally, PLUS airbag and other goodies (i can list all if you want)… proton are already exempted from tax… reason for being expensive???
Proton share per unit/assets owned including Lotus; how can they be acquring so much when they say they're losing money??? Economies of scale, when they dont have any, how can they do that???
Close gap between rich and poor, does it mean:
1. More people able to own a car??? What if i put it this way, without proton or ap to protect it, would more people able to own a car with HIGHER quality???
2. Create more jobs, yes, comparing with perodua with higher volume (take for example myvi and savvy), which is generating more money for the nation, despite being assembler only and non national car???
3. Talking about reducing exports, how much are exporting for our car anyway??? would it make any difference with/without it??? My list would go on and on, but just cut it short,
CUSTOMER SATISFACTION WOULD NOT END UP WITH SUCH REMARKS!
proud owner: Since when has it become my ex-Satria? I am still driving my Satria everyday and I love driving it. I am still paying the loan for it. Cost me RM24K. It's nice to drive. I cannot afford any other car… not even a Gen2.
Some people complain about the design, but I feel that whether a design is nice or not is subjective to a person's taste. So that's not really a 'problem' with Proton.
The only thing I dislike about Proton is the fact that Proton's export models have higher build quality than the local models. Maybe Proton is earning less on export models by using higher quality components and more stringent quality control processes. But why can't they do so on the cars meant for our local market as well?
Other than that… I support Proton. There is alot of room for improvement and they are improving.
ok im a gen2 owner so i know…window rosak, reverse sensor rosak, car door plastic use double sided tape and always drop, service suck like hell, the klutch always got sound. Comeon la not only me got these "small small" problem…alot others owner facing same problem. Overall the car is superb and comfortable but with all these small small problem. Don't buy.
Specially to PROUD OWNER bro,
Sometime KUTUK can be a good sight, think POSITIVELY.
Why say so? Give you an example:
There is a restaurant XXX selling NASI LEMAK, you like the environment very much but just the food is a bit PEDAS. What would you do? Case 1: You will compliant to the BOSS, This will happen if you wish to come back again. Case 2: You might think you will never come back this place F**King place again therefore no need to complaint and waste your energy to tell him.
So, if you are the BOSS of restaurant XXX, which cases you prefer to happen.
We all complaint about POTONG, cause we still hope POTONG can improve their weaknesses and soon or later We can buy a better products with lower cost. Of course we then will proud to own NATIONAL CAR and show the world.
SEE FU bro, GOOD one!
dear alexc,
cheaper p1, ovsea? donno, but in s'pore very expensive! Expensive here, maybe but import much more! Of course p1 like p2 need to profit but still cheaper than import- business sense here!
who said? TM said during him never lose money! & opportunity and excess fund that's why they bought/built- agian business sense
rich vs poor
1.no, dont agree.without, definitely, more people will buy rm10k china car than rm60k toyota altis
2.p2 generating more money 4 them 1st, then 51% profit send to japan as dividend, & need to pay royalties, technical, supervisory, machinery (at mark up price- tax purpose) all to japan; how much left in m'sia?
3.rm1 billion is alot of money (again TM said).
;-)
i understand..i 've every bit of an opinion u delivered in this blog…heck it my mandatory-visit-everyday blog..there so much input ur blog has provided me so far….comment are only good if we can turn it into positive measure..
anyway thank for ur frank explanation.
Alekc , thank u for asking..
i use to remember in the good old day..before p1..malaysian mostly medium low income cannot afford to buy a car..car has been regard as liability back then..so most of them bought secondhand japanese or american car..
only the higher income ppl can afford brand new honda , ford or volvo.
when proton came it changes everything..even fisherman can drive one..hahhah
Look on the bright side, potong now have a new market to sell their products hence more overseas exposure. Good or not, only time will tell. Maybe they are slowly moving surplus stocks to elsewhere before building VWs.
ermm… is there any proof that proton cars that will be export are more higher quality than those sell in the local market.i mean any hard copy or what so eva…. or it just a mouth 2 mouth talks.i also drive a proton…yeahh an old carby proton…. cannot hide the facts it still give me minor problems …but no so serious right now… unaccurate fuel reading,lamp signal problem… can feel the wind when u r speeding and others.but still with these problems i'm still bless.at least i'm learning how to take a care of a car not to mention with your site Paul,but for those who dislike Proton…. it is not wrong to critisize but within a limit too…just not bashing around .anyway Proton also must change their attitude.Try take example from Toyota or Hyundai in making more quality cars.Just my 2 cents.
Oh no it don't. I used to hope for a Honda , now what can I get? a P2.
My dad have had enough with P1.. Forever.
Proton Gen2 in the UK. model 1.6 GSX MT(£10,595.00) + Leather seats, headrests and door trim inserts(£795.00) + Metallic paint(£300.00).
total is £11,690.00.. that RM 79,023.00 with current exchange rate of 6.75153.
the equivalent model here in Malaysia-Gen2 1.6 Hi-Line- costs RM59,391.50
well yea Proton aint perfect(faar from it) but its not as bad as some of you might have said. all in all, Proton is Proton, we'll just have to take it as it is-an improving carmaker
I think we can all agree that proton has been producing very low quality cars all these time. But while I agree on that, I think it would be unfair to judge what proton are doing now by it's bad history. I honestly think that starting from Gen2, Proton are improving very rapidly. Probably alot of people are still unhappy about the car's reliability, but before this, people being happy of Proton cars amounted to next to nothing! And now with the Savvy, they are definitely going in the right direction. My point being, try judging proton with a clear state of mind, and don't let our judgement be clouded by their past efforts. I have so many exciting information that I wish I could tell everyone on the paradigm shift that Proton is currently undergoing. Unfortunately, I can't because of confidentiality. Of course Proton is not perfect, but the least that they are doing is moving in the right direction. And with the AP saga and globalisation, it would be very interesting to see how this new proton under a new management react to this.
I can understand that most Malaysian people are fuming because of this so called national car. And don't get me wrong, I totally understand and agree with everyone that alot of people have suffered because of the protection the government has given them. Having said that, shouldn't the government be blamed on this issue as well? Why have they let Proton be mis-managed so badly? To be honest, I think everything in Malaysia is a bit too f**ked up right now (oil and comodity prices, toll prices, corruption, cronysm etc etc), and since everything is controlled by the government, you all know who should shoulder the blame. The thing I hate most about Malaysia is that only a handful few who are in the know get so god damn rich. As a Malay, I am really shameful of this situation…
Anyway, I see that I have wandered too much away from my point. I just think that it would be very good to give constructive critism (it doesn't need to be a positive critism to be constructive), but it would be unfair to judge what Proton are doing now by their previous mistakes. What they are doing now is definitely not brilliant, but they are going in the right direction and they still have loads of room for improvement.
But I do agree with Paul about proton's export policy. It is in fact true that the exported cars are better in quality than the local ones. It makes sense to do that, but don't do it with the expense of their local market. I mean to go into a foreign market, you are bounded to their quality regulations. If that means you have to increase the uality, than do so. But lower quality cars for the local market means cheaper cars for the local market, which unfortunately is not what is happening right now. And that really sucks.
Look the reality of it is Protons are NOT as well made as the big boys. But if you really want to compare apples with apples, then a more recent example could be Skoda.
If someone can look at our JD power ratings and fault per/ number of cars, and compare it with products from Skoda's first 20 years, I would wager we are very similar. If not even a bit better (with the Savvy in particular). Ok so i dont have the figures and facts, go google it, but seriously though we need to compare directly.
(sorry Paul i know you encourage arguments based on facts supported by sources but i m a tad rushed for time)
Price is not the best comparison sometimes. Neither are similar categories. Look at the case in totality and then compare.
That said, i personally think Proton is doing a lousy job. Really. I don t think they had a concrete long term strategy, i don t think they had foresight, I don t think their communications have done very well either… And their products. Well that we are all familiar with.
But if i take a step back, my disappointment turns (slightly) away from being let down by Proton themselves, and is then directed to the people around them. Namely us. Have we not empathized enough? Have we not bought enough of their cars? Actually, we hadnt much of a choice then did we…. they were cheap. we bought. we knew it was OK-la kinda cars but we still settled. It was OUR choice. One that was pressued upon us, but hey. We could have walked:P
This Proton discussion would never end conclusively or in a satisfactory manner. At least not in this blog. Or any other publication.
But i know one thing – I care. I really do. I want Proton to do well. I want to be in the home country of a able car maker, which in turn would naturally benefit my ownership experiences in the long run. And i m patriotic. So sue me:P
Tai
now THATS the way to write comments!! tai and zongtwi, i salute you guys! no personal grudges, no baseless attacks. cheers
You know, I swear nobody should ever mess with karma. Just a couple of months ago, fresh back home from studies and not having experienced the furore that accompanies a Proton launch for quite some time, I was fully equipped with my usual 'Proton sucks' spiel, ready to tell anyone who'd listen about all the reasons why the national carmaker ought to be scrapped and left to rot in the junkyard in the sky, the quicker forgotten the better.
Then came the Savvy launch.
Nowadays, amazingly, most of the time I just find myself defending Proton, because despite the fact that I despise many things about their history and can't stand how their low quality cars have affected people I care about, the truth is that so so many people who choose to attack Proton MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO BLOODY SENSE WHATSOEVER.
Example: wheels24 is a respectable car site; in fact, I have read impartial reviews from Oxley in the past. So why would he think a crap car is good? Those who insist that the Gen 2 is a horrible car could have argued that Oxley has only had a day's drive in it, so he doesn't know what the ownership experience is like yet. They could have argued that Proton took pains to make sure the cars sampled by the SA visitors were up to the mark. But no, instead they make unsubstantiated and unwarranted attacks on Oxley's credibility, just because he committed what is in your eyes a mortal sin, and actually praised Proton, heaven forbid.
I know for a fact that it's easy to be impressed driving the Savvy around for a few hours around a few good corners, because I've done just that. What is it like to own the thing for a few years? No idea, but I'm in the market for a car, and if it weren't for the moral dilemma of tacitly supporting the unfair taxation measures imposed in our country, I'd probably be driving a Savvy around by now. But then, people who buy Myvis are faces with the same moral dilemma too…for some reason Perodua being tax-free and protected (when it is in fact a Japanese company) is ok, whereas Proton being tax-free and protected isn't. Don't talk about the quality of the cars for now, the issue of unfairness on its own makes any carmaker that stands to benefit from said taxes and levies unethical, and that includes Perodua. After all, I doubt any of you would buy a Myvi, Daihatsu connection or not, if you could get a Swift or a Jazz around these parts for the same price.
What I'd like to have is even-headed discussion about the pros and cons of the situation, how to move forward and what should be done. That's why I value people like Paul, who work towards objectivity. He may prefer Peroduas, but I'm sure he'd be willing to sit down and have a reasoned chat about driving pleasure vs. reliability and foreign ownership vs. local ground-up design and so on and so forth.
A lot of you people are just lashing out blindly. The blind are ever so easy to take advantage of, so I won't be surprised if you continue to be suckered along for a long time to come. If it's not Proton, somebody else will figure out how to do it. Maybe Perodua, hohoho.
erm… any company la practice the same concept.. export must be better.. why? warranty very far ma… that's the only reason. ask TCMA. Ask Honda Autoparts. Kayaba, APM anybody. Infact Motorola also practicing the same concept. 3 ppm (parts per million) anyone? Ask these people.. QC points checking different one. eg : export 12 pts checking, dom 8 pts checking.. use whatever method , QCGate, In-Line Process Checker, or whatever shit, the outcome is still the same ma… but anyway your Hiline Gen2 is exactly the same except for the heater, defroster and the rr fog lamp. airbags for Waja? 6 for UK specs. How abt that?
ah…..now proton seems deperate enough to export their cars to overseas such as Taiwan and South Africa…….but south africa isn't really that poor……more or less…….their purchasing power parity per head is same like malaysia……
Paul is rite wat rgd there's a difference between plotong cars export n import. There r numerous examples. My bro who was studying in Aus said that the satria gti which is priced at rm58k (then) here is priced at rm45k (then) over there. When he chat with d mat salleh who's using the car, the mat salleh told him this, "of course u malaysians pay higher, u guys paid the tax for us!" Imagine how u feel as a m'sian hearing the words. Betapa dianaktirikan….Meaning we here pay higher for d same car in order for plotong company to use the extra profit to pay for the tax impost on them by australia govt to sell d same car over there! Furthermore not to mention ppl in uk n overseas get airbags for same car n we m'sians in malaysia dont get them…dat's why i wanna buy myvi….
we cannot be too blind to see it….
UK Waja is offered only with 4 airbags. driver's side, passenger's and twin side airbags(front)
SEE FU said,
August 22, 2005 @ 3:39 pm .
SEE FU, u r good 1!.
for some 1 who dont complain about proton quality n there service my b u dont have a car o other type of car either u not paying a lone for proton car that u bot that why u dont really understand how our national car do to us till now!
For me, it's the simple idea of unbiased judgement. The Gen 2 is a good looking car. It has lines similar to the Mercedes C-class hatchback. Even the latest rear spoiler is mercedes inspired.
However, remember when Proton launched the Gen 2. I understand that almost every car displayed had their problems. And obvious ones at that. I'm of an average height, but when I sit in the car, my head is touching the top of the car. And i'm not purposely sitting straight, just sitting according to how the seat is positioned. It is ergonomically challenging. That I find ridiculous. Honestly,. I have not driven it. But I have seen enough to be able to tell that the Gen-2 isn't a car I would buy. Not for 60k. For that price, i'd be better off with a second hand BMW from 10 years ago. I have spare change too. Yes the cost of servicing the car may be high but I own one to know well enough that my Proton costs me more to keep up with.
The guy who reviewed the car may have received cars in immaculate conditions. I don't doubt an experienced reviewer's views of a car. But what I doubt is the quality of what Proton sells to the local people. Consumer unions here are not strong enough to do something about it. Look at Holden in Australia. Do they have support from the Government? No. They are competing hard with BMW, Audi, Merc, Volvo, Toyota, Mazda and their biggest rivals, Ford. They are not much older than Proton is. But I respect the fact that they have cars which are worth driving such as the Monaro and competitively priced to create some competition in their small small market.
How do I know that they have improved? Jeremy Clarkson used to hate the Monaro. Now he loves it. And no, I don't think Holden are building the car for Jeremy Clarkson alone.
I hope Proton does something to improve. They need a kick up their arse. People have a negative image of Proton now. What they need is to realise that the only reason many people are still buying their cars is because they're the most affordable cars here, yet still heftily priced in actual fact.
i believe the quality of proton cars have improved. i own a 5 months old waja, and so far there's nothing wrong with it. proton cars may had a lot of problems in the past, but the situaton is changing.
if proton car r changing n improve that will batter.
depending how u take care of your car. but it prove our national car like proton not really good in there interior like the rubber part n there mole of plastic interior.
Proton still lacking in Quality; on another hand, we also cannot expect much from the the amount of money that we paid. if we check on MAtrix, Getz or Picanto, KOREAN car also not better.
After 15 yrs manafacturing EOL japanese model; in 5 yrs time PROTON launched WAJA, GEN2 & SAVVY. this can consider as a good achievement.
No matter how, WAJA is much better & reliable than WIRA, ISWARA or SATRIA
GEN2 still a good looking car, but not suitable as family car
SAVVY seem like better quality than GEN2, workmanship also better than some Japanese or Korean model (TUV factor)
PROTON only need to understand the people’s need; to improve the quality & better relibility.
remark : also to design a car for six footer.
PAUL, do u agree with me?
ala all ppl, i tink, those with the rosak power window, itu jatuh, ini tak jalan etc…are 1st batch production models ka?…lain kali kalu mau beli kelita, wait for 2nd or 3rd batch model la…baru takdak, or less problems…Even other popular brands (1st batch) got problems one!..sure one!…
i pity u guys, im a proud owner of proton. lets just see the korean. although their natianal car was not perfect …..they still support their product…this site reflect poor spirit of malaysian ..just comment …u guys not even an engineer or designer….u see when lamborghini`s founder comment about ferrari gear box..he said `im gonna teach you how to make a proper car to the enzo ferrari`( he gave comment on ferrai dude!) then he founded lambo…u see…u guys talk cock,,,just talk…dunno anything…if ur so good then open up ur own car company…and one word paul..if ur too good just open up ur own car company..and shut the fork up…DUN ONLY TALK LA..ACT
Won't buy proton anymore. Why? Not coz of bad quality cars but mostly coz,to me, they r not sincere in furthering the advancement of auto industry in Malaysia. period.
Emm.. maybe the rosak power window are from 1st batch models, from my experienced, i used to drive my father's Wira and the usual problems is power window other than that maybe wrong engine timing…
I think depends on user how they used it & it is the duty for proton to improve it!!! U know what, i thought only proton had a reliability problem… not to other brands….
Now i'm using continental car…. mini mpv type and the price same as Waja but low in engine displacement… it's a good car while in brand new condition with superb suspention… can langgar any bumpers… hehehe…
After a long while using it, then came a problem just like the others Gen2 owner experienced… clutch noise, power window broken…aii.. another reliability problems… i thought cars from other manufacture won't experience these probs… maybe BM and Merce perfecto bout' this matter… but what i was sayin' that the car in the same class (even it is mini mpv, but same price)…
So, don't think proton is the worst… maybe to someone, it is… i'm not backin' up proton fault, just to reminds that others are facing the same fault… proton are improving now but not much… i still not trully confident with proton products after hearin' some complain, critics, sumpah-seranah etc…..
Still eyeing for japanese cars….if can't afford it, buy the perodua is pretty cool right?? It's from Japanese what…………………
holy_cow: that was a great comment. btw i do not prefer peroduas… i just think they are ahead of proton in the local manufacturer game. that doesn't mean they will forever be ahead of proton. i personally do not prefer perodua cars… too small for me and most of them to not possess handling qualities that i desire.
Hmm… certainly not suitable for taller and bigger size person dude… hehe..
Better wait for proton 'well-build' model i think…. but for how long??
Rite, to be on the fair side, proton still have lotsa way to go… many people are getting problem free vehicles irregardless of models… majority of us got piece of junk which got some problem here and there… as if there is no such QC terms… if you'd ask me, i can list out from very minor to some major problem with my proton (1st hand) before i decided to sell it off for some 2nd hand jap car (toyota)… a 10year old car is near faultless compared to 6 year car… how does that sound???
It might sound unfair to compare a market leading against a niche player, but fact is to succeed you cant just compare a fellow failure as a benchmark… the government did all but promote QC and R&D at time of proton dominance, hence the setback at this stage when globalization drives the forces of the market…
I am sure many of us here wouldnt mind owning a proton if it is could prove to be reliable and has value for money… in fact, proud to own our national car even if its slightly expensive… contrary to that, proton has been milking us idiot with cheap junk while putting aside their faults as 'biasalah'… this has been going on for a long time and creates a very negative mindset among locals… simple evidence: people would buy 80k vios (1.5L only) compared to 60k waja (1.6L) for quality albeit smaller engine size…
proton themselves are their own nemesis… i myself felt cheated as a malaysian for buying a inferior product at exorbitant price, made worse by their attitude towards consumers… although its cheaper than imports, i'm sure you know how the calculations like without taxes… at least for once i try to have some fair words for proton, but there are times when its abit too late for changes even if they try… even in this blog alone, i'm believe majority of our confidence are lost in them…
Paul: I believe you reserve the rights to criticize/appraise with proof and fair judgement… it is productive to have supportive appraisal and highlights on any setbacks for improvement and our knowledge as consumers…
Alex, Paul is right; P2 the ride & handling is poor, espeacially KENARI & MIVI.
furthermore, DAIHATSU not sinccerlly to transfer technologi & knowhow, the hold 100% of PERODUA ENGINE MAFG.
We need to support a national product that truely develop the technologi & economy.
i also agree with u,PROTON themselves r their own enemies; they r not really understand the people's need & expectation; they took the thing for granted…………….
trust me….proton is currently at par with the koreans' present models…however, with them koreans, hyundai-kia are launching a slew of new models in 2006, which should be better than the ones now….i think we will see steady improvements in the SRM, the new perdana, proton sepang roadster, suv and the waja replacement…remember, gen2 was 1st 100% malaysian designed car, not the waja….waja still use mitsubishi chassis, only outside body is malaysian designed
Paul: Thanks. Apologies for misinterpreting your stand, though, I'm relatively new to this site and didn't realise that you actually enjoy your Satria. Not surprised you do, though, because I've driven my friend's and found it a lot more fun than I thought it would be.
Just to share. Someone wanted to buy a car. Was wondering whether it should be the Myvi of the Savvy. Guess what the others told her. " you work soo hard. Sometimes you ought pamper yourself. enough of all this stupid cars, get yourself a Kia Picanto and solve all your problems.
The person is now a proud owner of a Picanto.
Excellent driving performance. The gearbox shifts to N when the car reaches 80 kmh. cool.
And you know what people said…..its normal….just go repair…will be ok wan….
Just a point to ponder…. if this would happen to Proton cars, what would be the comment?
it will be really , really bad….
suprising that we Malaysians are patriotic bout a foreign car compared to our own. Jeez…its very sad people
And I also believe that most people whom have massive complaint bout Protons dont own one. This is from my very own personnal experience.
So much thigs to say(bad things)….there was once i just challenged this person saying i knew some engineers in Proton whom can solve all his complaints…and he said i dont own one….he heard from his friend…told him to call his friend to meet the engineers and he said the friend does not own a gen2 either. unbeliveble.
good one Rave!
our attitude just terbalik compare 2 korean!
yeah rave (again!), our attitude just terbalik with the korean!
over there, they hardly kutuk their products, but once they kutuk, the guy resign ma…
here, we kutuk kutuk kutuk kutuk, always kutuks, the guy says, 'biasalah malaysian, always kutuk ones, what 2 bother!'
;-)
picanto so ugly n the front view..
seem like cartoon fac.. duh..
comparing myvi and getz.. i think getz look better and sporty..
ignore the non fish-eye-lamp like jazz in myvi.
from backside.. getz is better than myvi.. seem like fat ahso-lah.
my friend those study in korea tld me.
in korea, there's no term of National Car'..
the kia and hyundai is not national car.. it's owned by Gruop of company like other.
they also transfer tech from mitsu ealier..
Korea not love or proud so much for Kia or Hyundai. (read Hyan-Dei not hyun-dai) . Them also see it's a cheap cloned japanese car..
Hyundai and getz is not the best choice.. not the almost choice.. "Bukan pilihan
" langsung in korea.. same as proton here.. that why korean export almost car!. and we in malaysia say.. Woooooo.. got korean carlah!..
i got shocked for the first time.. when my friend tol me like that..
whatever, you wanna believe it or not.. it's up to all of you..
The korean (south koreallah- north korea = always at war saje) ..
the korean choice is Europe car. Audi also the choice. ( maybe that why we can see too much audi in korea tv series?)
So.. try reearch on the net.. do korean love like crazy kia and hyundai? ..
sadly the answer is no.. search by ur self lah..
// i saw a new brand toyota on the road with flat gantung.. not sure what the model is.. maybe coming soon model.. sooo nice.. but dont know what.. and not have camera to shot.. :D
kia and hyundai bukan korea national car… but
malaysia national carr…. apa punya dasar otomotif daa
Really?? Quite surprising that the Korean didn't label Kia and Hyundai as national car…. But in Malaysia, we're proud to be the owner of Korean car…hehe.. the world turnin' upside down….
But, do we Malaysian have to craze bout' Proton??? Nahhhh…. tepuk dada, tanya selera……..
no..lah geng..
in malaysia we're proud of import car… anything import is so..so good,
so the term "National Car" is only in malaysia..
so unique what?..
petronas also = national oil company..
THIS! all matter already followed by another country in the world.. (a country business)
malaysia gonna be the 'perintis' for this kind of business..
simple example : Petronas at F1 car.. folowed by Petrobras. Bla bla bla..
many more.. BUT WE ALWAYS BLINDED OUR EYES AND MIND just only on a few spoil…
To pbranding a product is not easy. Proton only20. Petronas only 10 years in F1,
but at least.. we archive something..
do singapore have teir own BRAND? do indonesia have a world brand? (gudang garam suria=yes) .. do filifino have a BRAND?
Thailand do have.. = TOM YAM :p
so?. am i proud be a malaysian.. Yes i am..
Happy merdeka day 2005.!
yealah geng! anything import so good, status lifted!
even if in actual fact, our toyotas import made in 'jerebu' land and thailand!
;-)
Rave/Jake: it is undeniable that we locals have been condemning our own car… who is to blame for this? consumers who have the right of voice or right to choose??? or they themselves who doesnt buck up and sat on their laurels??? for you information i was driving a proton before i decided that piece of junk is beyond repair… if they have improved, i wouldnt mind to be buying another newer model then… what are the feedback then??? same old issue, less milo tin now, but still cheap plastic interior, clunky, power mirror and the whole damn load… why would i, in my rightful mind, to purchase a second hand japanese car instead of investing the same amount of value into a brand new proton??? because you get peace of mind when you have something more reliable and giving less trouble… we're just an average earner that needs to work daily, with good enough transport to arrive on time to work and reach home safe and sound in one piece… i dont have to travel to workshop now and then for repairs and worry about breaking down halfway…
can anybody confirm this?
myvi already selling more than 55k units, but for every myvi on the road, i saw brand new black proton wira aeroback also (proof: the new plate no)
does it means, those not daring enough to buy gen2, cant afford waja, dont want myvi, think savvy, picanto, atoz etc silly, are buying proton wira aeroback instead!
;-)
mitsu,
korea import only 20k plus cars in 2004
do google 'korean car market'!
;-)
proton mana bagus….tipu punya kereta.
well i dunno for sure how Koreans regard their own cars, but according to chris wee of autocar,
"In Korea though, the Chairman is right up there at the top end of the leader board as far as high-end luxury executive cars are concerned, and actually outsells its Continental counterparts. It does this for two very obvious reasons. Firstly, Koreans are fiercely patriotic and support the local carmakers to the point of fanaticism, shunning Continental makes and even looking down on those who dare buy something non-korean." -Chris Wee, Autocar Asean April 2004, pg 44
intrigued? btw, thats a straight copy from the original article, grammatical mistakes and all hehe..
For me, a car is an investment. It's an asset which we will live with for a good few years, at least. So when I decide to purchase a car, it has to be something I'd wanna live with for a good 10 years.
To me, if a car has a problem, then it's a problem. Doesn't matter what car it is. The only thing is whether the problem persists, and many protons i know have persisting problems, from leakages to faulty board problems. And these are on different cars. My cousin's LMSS has had a faulty board problem. I sent it for fixing at Proton as it is under warranty and 2 weeks later, the problem came back.
Ridiculous isn't it?
I feel that the only difference between Proton and Perodua is the quality and built. I'm not saying it applies for all, but at the moment, Perodua has more reliable quality control measures compared to Proton. Kia and Hyundais do not tickle my fancy simply because they only know how to set their interior to grey.
I believe that each of us have our own opinions, and that some people may be all out for Proton and some, not so. I am not so because I'm fed up with their, "kereta sure ada problem punya" or "biasa-lah" attitude.
Proton is more than just a brand, it's a national identity. So it's about time that they buck up and stop claiming that they have a Malaysian designed car when they have clearly coined it from some other obsolete French car.
And they claim the Campro is par with the 1.8 BMW M40 engine. AHAHAHHAHA…what a joke, who are they trying to kid?
Jake,
Thanks for the support my friend…..what i conveyed its really true. People say milo tin. Someone mentioned interior soo plasticky, do you know that the material used in the gen2 and the savvy dashboard and door panels are the same in Chevvy aveo. Supprised? its true. Aveo is close to 80K!!!!!!
Rave, glad you brought that up. I've been in an Aveo and Getz and MyVI and the plastics really aren't all that great. The Savvy is a step up from the Gen.2 , but of course could be better.
FRANKLY SPEAKING, PROTON car have some improvement, from my brother in-law 2001 waja (power window failure, electronic problem), mine 2003 waja (engine mounting); my sister 2004 & 2005 waja; the quality is getting better & better. therefore i quite confident PROTON will do better in future. i only wish that we MALAYSIAN keep support; just like KarHeng said
PROTON is more than a brand; it's a national identity.
HAPPY HARI MERDEKA
yep, i agree, PROTON is more than a brand; it’s a national identity… HAPPY MERDEKA DAY (^_^)…
MERDEKAAA…!!!
guys,
i can see a change in the way we think now……great….
Happy merdeka. Really considering the Gen2…..highline……
rave, wait a while longer for gen2 r3, then decides…
;-)
Thanks Jake….dunno when its expected……Proton is giving discounts now for Merdeka sale
Hmm.. About local vs export quality.
Actually, I want to say something. I dun know for the old cars (Wira, Satria etc) cos I did see there is a different level of interior trim quality (altho my experince with this is 12 years ago) but for the Gen2 and Savvy, the build quality for export & local is basically the same.
The differences now would be based on:
1) legislation requirment to enter the diff country market
2) public taste
3) cost factors
In the case of 1) legislation:
Diff countries have diff requirements. Maybe one country requires catalytic converter Type X before u allowed to sell car. Another country only allow Type Y. Another country uses diff fuel mix, or only diesel. Another country is left hand drive. Another country only allow cars with electronic limited speed. Another country says no airbags, no sell. Another country says, your steel must be XX mm thick at certain points.
So if u want to sell, u haf to suit ur product to their legal & their environment, right?
Dun tell me u gonna try bang ur same square peg product into round holes okay…. u can't.
In the case of 2) public taste:
Each country population have diff tastes. Lets say your nasi lemak seller start to expand. And he found out at the original restaraunt A, 90% of his customer likes super spicy. But at the new branch B, his customers dun eat hot. (Maybe it's expat area, haha…) so he change the curry reciepe. Then he opens another shop C and found out the customers here r very health conscious, dun wan big plate of nasi lemak, only small serving size of nasi putih. (!@#$)
In the case of 3) cost factors:
Here u find Malaysia customers r funny. Complain like mad la no new design la, no airbags lah, no this no that… but when it is offered with that option, nobody wants to buy. Why? Because of course the cost went up. In the end to satisfy the majority of the market Proton has to offer lower spec car in local market!
Then sometimes, those that can afford, prefer dun choose Proton- the mentality is like, at that price level, I rather own more Branded car…
So how????
Also, how come nobody get angry with other businesses of diff quality / diff options of product offered in diff market? Is it bcos nobody knows, or is just that nobody gets offended and take it personally?
Volvo does this- they have different engines for the XC90 but did not bring into Malaysia from day 1 of their business plan…
Nike does this- they offer differnt catalogues and products to diff region. And the shoes are more comfortable from Japan.
Even Coke does this! Did u know Coke from different countries r all slightly different taste?
The first generation Sony product manufactured in Japan is different quality than the next ones made in other places around the world…
Aparah, ada duit beli, takde duit diam! Mcm bagus je kutuk Gen2 inilah-itulah. Ada cert from TUV ke or paling koman SIRIM? Lesen pun agaknya takde, cerita berduyun-duyun.
I bought the Gen2 (M) in December 2004 and it has not failed me except for some niggling things that was rectified during the servicing intervals. I find that is normal since I bought the car for RM54k and not for a RM80K Vios or City.
The best part of owning the Gen2 is the handling and performance. The sound system is good as well however the seats needs to be redesigned to cater for 6 footers like me. Furtheremore, negative points for lack of dashboard eventhough it has a glove compartment. Other than that, no issues with my Gen2.
So, good luck to Proton in their new venture to the South African car market. May they get more profit from there and in the long run improve their R-D and subsequently the quality of cars produced from Proton.
hehehe…Gen2 bought in Dec 2004 has problems even before a year has passed?…dude…do share what your problems are. Also, do you know that the cost of RM54k for a Gen2 is well over inflated? I guess you do not realise whose pockets your money is going into.
Cheers.
1.3 myvi auto = 52k
1.6 gen2 (M) = 54k
52k for 1.3 car? ayoooo…
Tension said,
August 24, 2005 @ 3:46 pm
I bought the Gen2 (M) in December 2004 and it has not failed me except for some niggling things that was rectified during the servicing intervals.
—> Seeing the power window "power down" straight into the door in 1 second consider niggling things? oops…even mounting make noise…radiator overheated…oso niggling things?? wahsei…then it will never ever fails you…coz you juz a "tak pe lah" proton ownder dude!!
karheng said,
August 25, 2005 @ 11:11 am
do you know that the cost of RM54k for a Gen2 is well over inflated? I guess you do not realise whose pockets your money is going into.
—-> What to do? I cant afford to buy a Vios or City…thats my maximum budget mate…if my budget is only sufficient for a iswara or kancil…then it will never fails me too ~~~~ Sounds sour? yeap its sour grapes man ~~~!!!
r u sure EVERY gen2 got 'power window “power downâ€' problem & mounting & etc? got proof? u can get sued man!
typical malaysian, everything no good…
yeah correct.. SOUR GRAPES…lu lah!
to hfrshah, and all generally,
re the price in UK, cannot just simply convert the money, but also need to take account the take home pay.
Proton Car in UK – say 12k GBP, proton in Msia – say 60k RM
Average salary of 5 yr experience engineer = 5k GBP (Msia – 5k RM)
car price in UK = 2.5 x monthly salary, (Msia – 12 x monthly salary)
conclusion, car is affordable there, but ppl simply don't want to use car cos of good public service. Wish we + our gov can emulate their country. take the positive only.
OM
hmm…why dont u guys give proton a break…??
when proton does not improving..u guys keep blaming,cursing..when proton try their best to improve,selling car overseas…u guys still blaming and cursing it too..what do u want actually?
u dont like proton..so be it…leave it alone…if proton want to sell car overseas..let it be…if u dont likeproton..keep quite..if u like proton..praay for its success…and keep hoping proton will grow..
Chewbacca: Simply put…
There is something called taking criticism constructively. That's why you have critics. Critics are opinionated people who may be right or wrong, but it's their experience which make their perception valuable.
I believe that Proton has good cars too. Example, the Putra, Satria GTi. But what I did not really like is that they have taken too long to improve. They constantly fail in quality. and I agree so much with what OM has stated 2 posts earlier.
In Australia, you take a car's price, eg, BMW 3 series, double it up in AUD and then only do the exchange. You get the price of the same car in Malaysia.
60k x 2 =120k x 3 =360k. Well I think the new 3 series is pretty much around that price isn't it? ;)
i own vios….and waja…but for the price i prefer waja….talking about chepo plastic…even vios has all cheapo plastic inside…now even my vios landed in workshop for engine problem!!! so do u thing by owning export car make a better choice??? most of ppl who own proton complain bcoz there r so many owner of proton….and relatively smaller owner of vios or toyota….so less complain `visible`…even my fren altis got problem with the rear allignment and now he is using waja.
john, so ur point being waja won't have rear alignment problem? sorry, couldn't understand ur argument point in the last sentence.
and regarding ur point that more complain of proton because more owners, then all the more proton should take remedial steps to correct itself. we still complain because i'd say we still care, and hope to see proton as a major carmaker in the international market. else we wouldn't bother complaining rite?
probably all these issues are our own fault. Malaysians ' tidak apa' attitude. When we first encounter problems with our first Saga, we said, ' tidak apa, proton masih baru…' so we already have developed that kind of attitude towards proton, and for a lot of other matters.
unless attitudes change, these issues will never be laid to rest.
Did you all learn STATISTIC at school time?
3 sigma or 6 sigma? Did you know it? or remember????
6 Sigma means there are 3.4 parts failured per MILLION. Usually applied for Electronic products but not AUTOMOTIVE.
There will be a failured parts exist in a car. In other words, No Perfect car found in this world cause it was made by HUMAN. GOD made is PERFECT but not HUMAN made.
No matter TOYOTA, HONDA, MB or BMW good in quality control there will be failured found. Just the numbers of car might be more or less than other cars.
Conclusion, LUCK is the MOST important factor when you buy a BRAND new CAR. BRAND only give you confident but not LUCK. AGREED??
i agreed (^_^)
i hate people like paul tan. so anti malaysian cars.
my advice to you : migrate lah kawan…
Balik china kah? maybe u can help build them build a great dream car, perfect car. one that no one can find fault with. lanchau…
bobcat: thank you for your advice… but since when i'm anti malaysian cars?
damn…y did i take so long to read this posting. Paul, i havent read everything on ur blog, but so far this posting is the best. i mean, good critics (minus 1 or 2) informative and constructive. Im happy to learn that most of us do cares for Proton as I do believe no matter how much we hate their pace, their 'manja', their quality and so many other things, deep down, we still want Proton to success. maybe some has had enough with Proton. it was by their own choice. if only some of the comments were made 5 years back and read by those people inside Proton, and Perodua, and pro-active measures has been taken, maybe it's a different stories today.
Now, Proton has gave us a new 100% local product, Gen.2. Maybe now, Perodua still rebranding Daihatsu's car. When the time comes, they will come out with their own 100% local Perodua. It's interesting to see how much our appreciation and perception for them has changed.
Paul, my brother sold his Satria 1.6 (1995). It's 10 years old and it's givin him headaches (and 'pocket'aches). I'm happy with my 1 year old Kelisa as the petrol price keep rising. But I do hope someday (soon) Proton will come out with a high quality model and worth every penny spent.
People will keep on buying imports even if Proton and Perodua are world class automaker with world class quality and so on, simply because; 1) they can afford it. 2) it's their dream car. People have the right to choose.
Proton need an overhaul. A rebirth. Cause Im just like some of you, a passionate driver, a passionate Malaysian.
I have been using various proton car since 1995 and I had never experienced a single breakdown.
The problem is not the car, but the owner. When its time to service, they dont want to send for service. Then if the car brokedown they blame proton.
Sometimes i saw mercedes got brokedown on the highway, is it because mercedes produce bad quality car?
Most ppl just like to blame other because of their own stupidity. Even if they made mistake they will blame their parent.
So stupid.
Wahlao.. I think I just fell in love with the Gen2.. and was actually planning to put the deposit on one first thing on Monday morning. Now that I've read through all these comments, I am feeling rather confused and lost *sigh*
I am currently deciding between a Gen2/Waja/Avanza/Getz… think I need to seriously re-think once more :p Any opinions?
Fiona, That'll be a no brainer right? The fact that you can ask for opinions of Proton vs other makes like Koreans or Japs, means you can afford la. If can afford, why bother with Proton?
Only poor people like many of us here pay our hard earned money to buy junk, altho' some bought them because they trully believe in its quality and being patriotic. I bought a Proton because I can't afford another car, not because of patriotic reasons, not because I feel glad that I'm making a small group of people rich and some other people get jobs at Proton. I bought a Proton because money wise it's inconcievable to buy any other brand of cars. Definitely DID NOT BUY Proton because of the "quality" la….
So if I'm you, if can afford it, geez, buy a Korean or Jap la. Give Proton another 20 years, with all the "patriotic" people here (together with some recalcitrant people who buy but hate proton because they can't afford anything else)…. let us help Proton along for the next 20 years la, maybe Proton may come out with better quality cars, odds are against that admittedly with the 20 years of current history and track record. But who knows with so many people giving their hard earned money to buy a Proton, perhaps Proton can indeed one day produce a good car.
Honda Civic 1.7 2004 & Proton Wira (second hand) 1997, this 2 cars is the one that i drive before & now, my Civic is only 1year+ & it already have so much problem coming out, after 1 year, battery "kong", reverse sensor not fuction well (the "peee" cannot stop when I put it to R), car very hard to start (1or 2 time(s) every week) & etc……..for my wira, i'm facing the same problem like others, but it is not that bad that other people say, some people say they pam RM50 (1year+ ago) & they get only 300km or less but I can get 350km & more, so i just want to let u all know that not neccesary that non-malaysian car are better in quality than Malaysian car, is because the quantity that we have on the road that make the difference, how many new "non-malaysian cars" is on the road if u compare to new "Malaysian cars"? so please think it more positive way & i think proton will improve more.
Just don't buy junk if you think it is. Loan still pay and car can't really run safe.
I miss the Silver proton saga (auto)
Who won?Why dun ask the Proton to bring the cars for crash test. COmpete head to head with Toyota.Honda etc..see how the results?I am anti Proton but i owned a Kancil.Why?Cheap price.Locally made product should be cheap because local material but..??We dun have a choice.China cars are not as well..copy cat..Proton should learn from Hyundai who is 15-20yrs..
here's 3 potong i have owned, and their ploblemos..
potong saga (bought as 2nd hand) 1991 auto
-both side power window poblem
-vibration ploblem
-suspension poblem
-driver side brake lights falling off
-and to my horror: total auto transmission replacement
…..and many many more
potong wira aeroback 1.6 1996
-when delivered: rear hatch glass totally misaligned off center, send back to factory…how they "lulus" the car was beyond me
-very noisy engine
-after few years, teribble rust in roof (potong salesman sez: oh, no wonderlah, tahun 96 punya!!)
…many more poblems
potong wira 1.5 1994
-power windows poblem (whats new?)
-very harsh and vibrate
-rear bumper falling off..what do they use to stick the bumper, cellophone tapes from 7-eleven?
-air con vents malfunction
potong sukks…korean cars not that good ALSOOOOOOO
hey guys, lets be a little cheery! or if not positive…
i work for proton,i have a Gen 2 superb car if you ask me its got ‘Lotus’ developed ride and handling, its a unique family car that gives me reliability, style, comfort and excellent value for money. it has powerful 1.6 litre CAMPRO engine in collaboration with ‘Lotus’, , tough safety features, a great and may i say free! leather interior! air conditioning and a whole lot more, to me it has a lot to offer, both inside and out.!!!!!! you should give proton a break!!
bodoh punya mr.ciplak..
takat beli proton 2nd hand lagi mau demand lebih2..
beli la kereta lain kalau kaya.. watper beli proton..
bodoh punya mr.ciplak..
Dear Danie…..
if i'm not mistaken i read the past top gear and they held a test (how embarrasing)between ford KA and WAJA,They ranked WAJA 2 stars but eventually,the ford KA scored 4 stars.i't sounds unfair comparing two cars fom totally diffrent class but the small ford KA wins the face off.They also said that WAJA is the moving KERANDA on the road because of lack sfety…..i'm overwhelmed by the test because i like WAJA a lot.Especially the PSP team.
Need some advise. I viewed some comments on Gen2.It Confused me! Intend to change my car to Gen2 but it is the 1.3 new edition one..Dunno wether its worthy or better not leh??
dear all,
what i think is all the small problems that occured is not entirely proton's problem. as we know proton is mainly just as an assembler… all the bits and pieces are now made locally.. the main problem is not proton but its subcontactor or vendor who make all the CKD parts for proton.. what i can see now is that proton is trying to upgrade all their subcontractor or vendor quality by requiring certain certification ie TSXXXX and ISOXXX.. failed comply means end of business..
Then in this case we as malaysian is the problem.. people who makes proton parts are the culprit.. why can't we make something that is long lasting??One other thing,why can't malaysia have it own guideline for car makers like the EURO STD,and make it mandatory,any cars do not comply to this std cannot sale their cars and no exception for local cars makers…
For our country sake please WAKE UP PROTON!!!..AND ITS SUBCON!!!
Wahh..use word like stunning..omg.. "and he also noted he had no trouble sitting comfortably in the back" ..must be a short fella…i'm 6"0" and i have trouble sitting like a turtle behind…