Joint letter by Tun Dr. M and Tengku Mahaleel
This press release was forwarded to me not too long ago. It’s a joint release letter by Tun Dr. M and Tengku Mahaleel on the matter of Proton’s sale of MV Agusta.
Among questions asked are who made the decision to sell MV Agusta, and why was an entity bought at a price of 70 million Euros sold at such a low price of 1 Euro, when even though MV Agusta was making a loss, the 3 brands it carried (M.V. Agusta, Cagiva and Husqvarna) held a high value.
You should find this interesting.
Sale of MV Agusta - by Tun Dr Mahathir and Tengku Tan Sri Mahaleel
As the people who were responsible for the purchase of Meccanica Verghera Agusta (M.V. Agusta) motorcycle manufacturer of Italy, we, Tun Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad and Tengku Tan Sri Mahaleel Tengku Ariff, think Proton owes an explanation to Proton shareholders and to the public the reason a company that was bought for Euro 70 million (RM315 million) was sold for one Euro (RM4.50).
This sale must cause Proton to lose RM315 million less RM4.50. Assuming that this relieves Proton from paying the loss incurred by M.V. Agusta over the 15 months at Euro 26.87 million (or RM131 million), it would still lose the purchase price of Euro 70 million (RM315 million) by selling off at one Euro.
There is now no possibility for Proton to turn around the company and regain its purchase price, if not make a profit. Of course Proton will now not get access to M.V. Agusta engineering technology.
Proton bought M.V. Agusta knowing full well that it has a debt of Euro 232 million, which it does not have to pay for three years. M.V. Agusta has assets in the form of two plants (in Cassinetta and Morazzone) and stocks of motorcycles.
In addition M.V. Agusta owns three brands – M.V. Agusta, Cagiva and Husqvarna. The M.V. Agusta F4 1000 Tamburini (photo above) is recognised as the best sports motorcycle in the world. All these brands have high values.
M.V. Agustas technology in motorcycle and small engines is acknowledged by the industry as second to none.
Losing automotive companies like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and many others have been bought by stronger companies and have been turned around. But the prices reflect the assets and the brand. As far as we know they were not sold for one Euro.
The question is can Proton turn around M.V. Agusta? Until lately Proton has been profitable. It built its facilities in Tanjung Malim for RM1.8 billion with its own money – no borrowings and no injection of capital from the Government.
After building this facility Proton still has more than RM2 billion in cash. Proton was a profitable company and must know something about management to make profits.
The recent loss by Proton is said to be due to provisions made for M.V. Agusta loans. But in answer to questions by the Press, a Proton manager (Datuk Maruan Mohd Said, CEO Proton Edar) admitted that the discounts given by Proton have affected the profits of Proton. Unfortunately no figures are given.
But apparently a total of 54,000 cars were sold in three months with rebates and large discounts which include free registration, free insurance, free first installment payment for three months and free service. Roughly the discount per car would be around RM2,000 or more. At RM2,000 on 54,000 cars, Proton would forego RM108 million. The increase in the number sold cannot make up for the amount foregone.
These figures which reflect a failed strategy have not been given. Instead the loss is attributed to provision for debts of M.V. Agusta. When provisions are made for bad debts, it does not necessarily mean that the debts cannot be recovered. Besides how is the quantum determined? The debts of M.V. Agusta are frozen in any case and it need not be paid immediately. Has the amount provided been paid so as to reduce M.V. Agustas debts or is it still with Proton when M.V. Agusta was sold at one Euro?
There are in fact many questions which have to be answered regarding the sale at one Euro of an entity that was bought at Euro 70 million.
- Who offered to sell or who offered to buy at one Euro?
- Were there other bidders?
- Was there an attempt to get the buyer to pay a higher price?
- Was there an announcement that M.V. Agusta was up for sale?
- If not did Proton approach only one bidder?
- If other bidders were offered, did they reject?
- Who in fact made the decision to sell?
- Can Proton explain how selling an entity bought at Euro 70 million for one Euro would not cause Proton to lose money as is claimed?
Gevi S.p.A. is not a household name in the automotive industry. Is it a motorcycle company, confident that it can turn around M.V. Agusta, something that the sale by Proton implies that Proton has no capacity or ability to turn it around? Not having to pay Euro 70 million will be an advantage for Gevi.
These are questions that need answering. As the two people most involved in the purchase of M.V. Agusta, our credibility and honesty is at stake. We want to know the correct answers. The public too may want to know as Proton is a National project.
January 3, 2006 @ 10:57 pm
Let the new management decide…
January 3, 2006 @ 11:18 pm
Hmm… biasalah… isu for some time, after a while will get swept under the carpet… this one notwithstanding…
January 3, 2006 @ 11:36 pm
The sale does clearly indicate something stated in the letter - The incapability of Proton to turn around and safe a sinking vessel. Face the fact. Sometimes other new leaders dont see what the previous leaders foresaw (or dream of), but they might have newer visions and dreams (which may also turn out to be nightmares a few years down the road).
However, I doubt this is the only million to one for sale case. I believe BMW did this before. Sold off MG for 1 gbp or 1 euro - something like that. Cant recall clearly though. Can someone look it up on this?
So if BMW boleh - Malaysia boleh also la…
January 3, 2006 @ 11:43 pm
Oops correction :
The company called Phoenix Four bought Rover from BMW in the year 2000 for a mere £10… Thats about RM65.50. Hrmm still much more than 1 euro which is about RM4 something.
January 3, 2006 @ 11:52 pm
i dunno bout u guys, but somehow i like the way Tengku manages proton..i can see he has a vission..he was trying to develope proton to a sporty-focused brand..i’m sure he aquired MV agusta after some research and he was confident tat MV agusta can be turned around..i believe tat he intends to use the technology and design from MV agusta and applies it into proton..and b4 he could kick start his plans, he was “forced” out of proton..this is my point of view..hopefully no bashing towards me..
January 4, 2006 @ 12:21 am
yes, i kinda agree with you Infinity. Mahalel had the vision to develop proton as a brand as opposed to the current board that seems to be aligned towards manufacturing and operations.
i think the problem with proton is still chronic cronism - Mahalel had excellent vision, however, it translated poorly as it went down the line. This is evident in all GLCs such as MAS, BCB, TM, TNB and many more during the Mahathir era.
we all know where this leads to, but since Paul doesn’t like talking about it fearing the ISA, we’ll just leave it right here …
January 4, 2006 @ 12:29 am
history is history and it can’t be undone. what i hope now is that proton will come out with more attractive, better quality and sefety cars in near future. hope this 2006 new year is the beginning of our so calles ” national pride ” to show that malaysia is still boleh. ok?
January 4, 2006 @ 1:22 am
well when BMW sold rover to phoneix four for 10quid, it has taken out the mini marque and factory out of rover (and it still owns), and also the Land Rover marque which it later sold to ford for a hansome sum.
when BMW sold off rover, they are only offloading the unprofitable stuff in rover, while they took out all the good stuff.
proton?
January 4, 2006 @ 2:39 am
biasalah bila reputation at stake. blame the next guy.
always work
January 4, 2006 @ 7:22 am
Guess wat folks…its another bad soap opera and the storyline reads like this:
2 parkinson desease hit old bloke…shitting on the jamban without flushing it away. Later when they both were halau from the jamban and now the new owner took over the jamban…guess wat? they are the one who questioning who leave that smelly shit behind inside the jamban!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wat a freaking lousy corpsy f**king soap opera I had ever seeeeee…KNNCCB
And…where is SEE FU??? YAO MOU GAO………..CHOR (R) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 4, 2006 @ 8:11 am
Oh my god…I honestly can’t believe that TM has come out attacking his successors at Proton. Somehow, now, he’s concerned with ‘his credibility’ which apparently is at stake. I can’t deny that their questions are valid, and as a Malaysian I would like the current Proton board to answer them. But this TM is f***ing unbelieveable. NOW only he’s concerned with his ‘credibility’. What about other mismanagement in Proton all this while, when he was at the top? He was there for more than 8 years, but all the basic things that a car marque should do, wasn’t done. Quality deteriorated, quality control was abysmal, and almost every Malaysian was disapointed with Proton. Going deeper, he has wasted tonnes and tonnes of cash for indecisions, for cancelling projects etc. Not to mention the amount of money he spent in building the CEO office which apparently is even complete with a spa (I was told it was about RM7Million). He’s talking like if he was still CEO of Proton, he was the one who could have turned MV Agusta around. But after 8 years at the top, Proton was still going nowhere. Isn’t he worried about his credibility for everything else? To me, personally, he has no right whatsoever to question the current board’s decisions, especially since no one was allowed to question his decisions when he was on top. Come on TM, gather what you have left of your dignity, and just retire in silence.
As of disposing MV Agusta for Euro1, I have no qualms with that, but I definitely would like to know the answers to all those questions. To me, Proton are turning a corner, and as they’ve said before, they are now trying to focus all their efforts on basic stuff. Don’t dream of running if you can’t even walk properly, right? (That was what TM did, worse still, he was dreaming of flying when he couldn’t even crawl) I look at it like this, just by selling for Euro1, you are free of Euro232Million of debt. I might be wrong, but to me that does actually make sense. Especially if that company is not part of your long term plans.
January 4, 2006 @ 8:26 am
Sounds like a publicity stunt
Now cannot save p1 now wanna win the Oscars?
January 4, 2006 @ 8:35 am
To Zongtwi,
Mahaleel’s legacy in Proton would be in terms of the Savvy and other cars to be launched by this year, if there’s any. He spent his early years as the CEO trying to build up the R&D. The next logical step is to get something where most carmakers don’t have, proper car stylists. IMHO, Proton should have tapped MV Augusta of their top Italian designers before chucking it off..
January 4, 2006 @ 9:00 am
Isamu, I agree with you, they should have done that. But, if it’s not in their plans, then it’s not in their plans. The main thing in Proton right now is to improve quality, from their own efforts as well as the vendors and suppliers. If they can’t keep the quality at an acceptable levels, what is the use of the technology they’ve tapped from MV Agusta if their current cars aren’t selling? Or even if they are selling, let the Malaysian public WANT to buy their cars, not FORCED to buy their cars, if you know what I’m saying.
Yes, TM’s legacy does include Savvy, which I have to say is a decent car. It also includes the SRM, which nearly after 2 years of it’s supposed launch, is still yet to be seen. It also includes the Chancellor (judge the car yourself). It also includes projects that got cancelled (I can’t mention them due to confidentiality) which costed millions down the drain. It also includes the reduction in market shares, because Proton can’t even compete in the local market. You’re right, he focused on R&D, I can’t deny that he had his own vission in improving Proton. But he should have focussed on quality, and customer satisfaction, adding value for money, which in turn would increase car sales.
I agree with you mate, the next logical step would be to get a proper car stylist. But you can’t deny, the first ever step should have been improving quality. Doesn’t it make sense to get that right first before anything else? He’s been there for 8 years, and the quality levels of Proton’s products have been shameful, not only to Proton but the Malaysian people as well. Like I said before, you’ve got to learn how to walk, before you can run.
I saw buying MV Agusta as probably a right thing but obviously at the wrong time. Another thing, it’s not only me that thinks that selling MV Agusta for Euro1 made sense. Their share prices increased by 15sen straight after. Obviously, people who know their economics saw it as a good decision.
January 4, 2006 @ 9:02 am
to speed junkie…..i went to tm office myself,theres no spa la weiii…..
January 4, 2006 @ 9:05 am
Well, why on earth did they buy M V Agusta????
For me, Proton has the know-how to build a car but it only need to watch out for the quality of parts and the finish product. Time and time again its the fault of our vendors
January 4, 2006 @ 9:06 am
most CEO of GLC do not have a vision of what the company will be in the next 50yrs. TM vision is very grand indeed. However he alone cannot translate his vision into reality. He build up the R&D dept. till wat it is today.
Most other CEO of GLCs be it MAS/Proton/TM do not have a vision of wat the company should be. Most of them akin to bean counters that lack the foresight of what the company under his care should be in 20-50yrs time. Infact what they really want is that under their tenure (1-10yrs) the company should not make a loss.
A leader without a vision is only a boss (b. schultz)
January 4, 2006 @ 9:14 am
——–After building this facility Proton still has more than RM2 billion in cash. Proton was a profitable company and must know something about management to make profits.
just imagine if others giant automative company JV with proton N become decision maker……. the cash flow of proton is the main reason Y others 1 to JV with proton…….
January 4, 2006 @ 10:10 am
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 9:02 am
to speed junkie…..i went to tm office myself,theres no spa la weiii…..
————————————————————
well, that info I got from not only one Proton employee, but almost everyone that I’ve met told me so. But if that info is wrong, then I won’t hesitate to take it back.
Anyway, I won’t be sucked into arguing with anyone. Honestly I can’t be bothered. I only have one last point to make. When Jeremy Clarkson smashed up the Kelisa, there was an outrage for his head. If that were to happen to Proton, JC would suddenly be everyone’s friend. Am I right? Now, why do MOST of the Malaysian public hate Proton? And this occurs during whose legacy? Vission in one thing, but having loyal support from the local market is another. I’m sure performance wise, Perodua’s cars can’t be compared with Proton’s. But MOST Malaysians love them because of it’s build quality etc.Ok, maybe TM had vission for the next 50 years, but without improving the basic stuff, Proton won’t survive the next 5.
Back to Paul’s post, I just think that TM is eating sour grapes, and trying to get back at the people who ousted him from Proton. I strongly feel that TM should just have kept quiet and he should stop meddling with Proton’s current affairs. It would be very interesting to hear the answers to those questions. I do hope the current board responds.
January 4, 2006 @ 10:19 am
fine, zongtwi i quite agreed to most of the argument u threw out, but it’s too harsh though. Pls correct your words that Mahaleel was the management in P1 instead of TM, he was the one making decision for P1 and supported by TM instead.
Maybe the fella had all the vision to run a so-called “world class” car maker, but it can’t be achieved through jumping on his ground and “siok” for himself only. A vision means of a Top-to-Down inspiration of the whole company component to make a thing success. He should choose to implant that kind of spirit in the company, confident of its quality across whole country, nurture that far before. A man with vision doesn’t translate to success if he don’t know how to do it.
While P1 exploited the potential in this merely bolehland, all the while worldwide car makers are advancing rapidly throughout globalisation challenge, and now it gonna to face it but found then it has no gound at all, and not a proper stance yet!!!
Good luck for P1 new management, hope they have a proper strategies to lead P1 towards right direction. I voted for selling off the MV Agusta instead of keeping the tumor distract the main focus. While maybe they are in rush to sell it out.
January 4, 2006 @ 10:24 am
haha proton are going backwards. after mv agusta, now they want to ditch lotus. WTH. obviously they wanted to wipe off mahaleel’s marks. all the hard work before wasted. its not about mahaleel wanna taunt current management. its just his puzzled (so do me) with proton’s decisions. what can we expect from proton in the future? making old mitsubishi models again? rubbish
January 4, 2006 @ 10:32 am
Zongtwi a.k.a. Speed Junkie said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:10 am
—–Back to Paul’s post, I just think that TM is eating sour grapes, and trying to get back at the people who ousted him from Proton. I strongly feel that TM should just have kept quiet and he should stop meddling with Proton’s current affairs. It would be very interesting to hear the answers to those questions. I do hope the current board responds.
ello brader….. they want 2 defend theirself…… kalu diam depa salah….
January 4, 2006 @ 10:33 am
To ZongTwi
I aggre, I agree with you mate.
January 4, 2006 @ 10:38 am
waja crash test
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/newsarticle.html?&id=PRO&doc=pro0111151
January 4, 2006 @ 10:43 am
pycazu said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:19 am
fine, zongtwi i quite agreed to most of the argument u threw out, but it’s too harsh though. Pls correct your words that Mahaleel was the management in P1 instead of TM, he was the one making decision for P1 and supported by TM instead.
————————————————————–
TM = Tengku Mahaleel. That’s what people call him at Proton and Lotus
January 4, 2006 @ 10:46 am
TM is tengku mahaleel, not Tun Mahathir.
to zongtwi, i totally agree with u. Proton has nothing to show for the last 7-8 yrs. While Waja and Perdana V6 is quite acceptable, they still have problems. major ones, i would say. remember when proton offered free 3 mths service for WAJA? that was because they forgot to insert a washer into the gearbox. one single washer.
gen-2? judge it urself.
i was an engineer(not PROTON) who were involved in the development of gen-2,savvy and SRM. i can only say that they really really did not know how to manage properly. For example, the project leader for SRM changed for at least 2 times, i think. Correct me if i’m wrong. First it was LOTUS, then PROTON, then i dunno who. Seems like theres to end to selecting who is the best manager for the project. no wonder the car is still in development.
i heard this from my friends, both in Perodua n Proton.
“Perodua only sell cars when they have tested and improved while it is still in the development process.”
“Proton only improve their cars when they receive complaints from at least 100 customers!!”
January 4, 2006 @ 10:49 am
Zongtwi hit the nail squarely on the head. What use is vision if it is not attainable. Strategy is 90% execution. If a strategy cannot be executed either because of resources etc, it was bad strategy to begin with.
Before we even look at the quetion posed by the letter, we should first try to ask the 2 TMs back…who the heck pays E 70 million (about RM370 million) and agrees to assume responsibility for E 232 million for a company that is bankrupt. In essence, the total cost is E 302 million for a company that is bankrupt. MV Agusta was for a lack of better word, insolvent at time of purchase. That is a lot of money to pay for a shell with a semi famous name. As an ex investment banker, my advise would have been to wait until it goes under properly and cherry pick the assets you want.
Clearly the acquisition of MV Agusta was not thought out properly by previous management as not only does it have all that debt hanging over its head, it had gone deeper into the red and had to borrow from the parent.
As for MV Agusta having assets, I am not too sure about that. With all the debts hanging over them, there is a possibility that these would have been pledged. It probably proved too much of a distraction that the new management felt that it was just not worth it.
One big fact that we have to face is that Proton is a car company. It already owns Lotus, which still is not that profitable after so many year under TM. The acquisition of MV Agusta is a joke…just because TM likes bikes why must he subject the shareholders to grief as well. There is just no way for Proton to capitalise on MV Agusta so called design capabilities, especially if you buy it and not put in the infrastructure to capitalise on these so called strengths. All the justifications given by TM exist only in his head.
Proton is first and foremost a car company. The name of the game is volume. Unfortunately after 8 years at the helm, TM has done nothing that would assist the company meet the volume challenge. Exports were sporadic at best and not at sustainable volumes except for a few markets. He missed the boat with China and India. The cars he built (Gen2 and Savvy) do not have mass appeal unlike those built by his predecessor (the Waja and Wira). Lotus has not introduce anything new during hi tenure. As for nepotism, I am sure there a few stories there as well.
January 4, 2006 @ 11:09 am
to zongtwi
so u said people told u so?..then if people said that tm had elephants in his office,u say its true la…tm had gold plated septic tank…bla bla bla..mindless proton bashers…mv has just been bought for 15 months…then got boardroom tussle..so when can setup for tech transfer…tun said that mv debt do not have to paid for 3years..why the hell did azlan’proton chairman sold it’?might as well get all their knowledge first..unless their is money to be made by???????…tun n tm just want the board to answer to the rakyat..but not to stupid malaysian who like a speedjunkie lol
January 4, 2006 @ 11:19 am
Shaymen;
With all due respect to the 2 TMs, although the final debt payment is due in a few years time…you still need to service it as you go along. There is also the issue of working capital and capex. These have resulted in the provisions announced. Both MV Agusta and Lotus, if you read all the analyst reports, are a drain on Proton. At least, in the case of Lotus, there are benefits to be derived. Perhaps MV Agusta was a real dud and should be cut off before it drags the whole company down.
The money spent on the fanciful projects of the 2 TMs (Tun does have a track record of fanciful projects…Linear City lah, Bakun lah) would probably have been better off used to develop an MPV, which Proton clearly lack in its product offering at the moment. That is about RM500 million that could have been put to better use rather than fatten up some Italian who could not even get his fellow Italians to help him out.
January 4, 2006 @ 11:26 am
tak pa…i think malaysians will be satisfied will impoting cars and selling..no need expertise at all…let rebadge anyting we can..the new vision for malaysia…we sell sayur to japan..they sell everything else to us..with no tax..lets all be petani n operator pengeluaran…no more asking the our children to be engineers etc2.technology is not needed here…malaysian dont have to be tokeh anymore…we dont need to own anything anymore ..just makan gaji from foreigner so that our cash flow will go to their country
January 4, 2006 @ 11:41 am
he is a leader… man with a vision.
However to achieve a vision he need support from the ppl. Some sort of democratic process. The way that he put his weight on the middle mgt and the board means that he do not win ‘real’ support. So he end up losing what he dreamt of. He is a general without follower. The task of imposing a culture in the comp. with the size of Proton is mighty difficult. His pet the R&D dept. do show some sign of inventiveness etc. but production don’t like them. By not having support of the liutenants he just cannot cut it.
May be ppl want a reliable and cheap bland cars. It is ok for 5 yrs or so, but without identity it will just dies of. Building the expertise to create an identity means a lot to survival of a brand.
I really dislike a CEO that just want to save themselves. As long as I got paid then Proton will not have losses. Well the contract say 5 yrs… so his vision will only be for 5 yrs. ( 2 facelift?).
January 4, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
For me,TM have a huge planning on MV but his mission not done…but will more critical if proton let go Lotus also…for new proton management…pls learn from the past…looks like they don’t want this two “TM” involve anything in Proton now.Don’t forget…Tun is a Proton ‘penasihat’..But overall..biasalah…politic mix business….the results is like this maaa….
January 4, 2006 @ 12:31 pm
well….im kinda agreed with muthu..let the boardroom answer tun and tm question…why did proton chairman waste 70million euro for nothin?at least learn la try to make a heli or a motorbike from them….proton bought that mv bcos want to learn the tech that mv has but that penguin sold it for 1euro..so sad.
January 4, 2006 @ 12:34 pm
Assimo;
You are right. Politicians and business do not mix well in the long run. Sure, in the short run, mixing the two brings some results but in the long run you get less accountability and decisions made not base on commercial aspects.
Dr M, as adviser has no real locus standi as an officer of the company (check up our Company Law), and yet the letter points out that he was one of the decision maker with regard to the MV Agusta acquisition. If anything, this open letter shows how bad the corp governance was at Proton under TM.
On your comment about planning, well you know what they say. Anyone can plan but only few can execute. If you can only plan but not good enough to execute and, more importantly, get results, you’re not a good leader.
On Biggie’s point about vision, I think most of us have vision. Some of us just dream rather than have vision In TM’s case it was just a daydream that turned into a nightmare for Proton.
The Chinese saying that wealth last for three generations seem apt here. The first two generation (the joint management and the early Malaysian management) help Proton grow abd build up its cash. Come the third generation (TM), squanders all the cash. Also need to note that the money making products for Proton over last 5 years have all been cars conceptualised and designed under previous management. So let us think back…what exactly did TM did that was positive for Proton during his 8 years there.
January 4, 2006 @ 12:35 pm
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 11:09 am
to zongtwi
so u said people told u so?..then if people said that tm had elephants in his office,u say its true la…tm had gold plated septic tank…bla bla bla..mindless proton bashers…
————————————————————
Well, if everyone I know who’s working in Proton tells me something, it’s hard not to believe, isn’t it? If it’s not true, then they must have hated TM real bad to come up with those kind of stories. I wonder why. (Note that sarcastic tone there) Btw, I’m not bashing Proton, I’m bashing TM. Now he’s gone, I honestly think Proton is better off. Well, first I’m a stupid motherfsssscker, then a stupid rakyat. Call me what you want mate. I couldn’t care less. Adios!
January 4, 2006 @ 12:40 pm
Well, why on earth did they buy M V Agusta????
For me, Proton has the know-how to build a car but it only need to watch out for the quality of parts and the finish product. Time and time again its the fault of our vendors
they bought agusta to steal the technology that agusta have la mate…our vendors just want to make money,thats why tm threw all of them out by gettin the tuv to inspect all proton cars but instead he himself being throw away by khairy jamaludin..pitty that tiger!
go get em(penguin) tiger!!!!!
January 4, 2006 @ 12:41 pm
Let’s hear both side of the story, P1 vs TM & TM. No doubt a very expensive experience..
January 4, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
yeah… ur right la waimak…lets hear them talk laa…
January 4, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
Let the new management decide the fate of Proton.. I hope Proton will come up with new models that is more practical for the majority of the masses. The current new models like Gen 2 & Savvy is percieved as too sporty for some. It has good handling, no doubt, but I guest most Malaysian drivers prefers practicality instead of sportiness from their car.
January 4, 2006 @ 12:47 pm
In the first place, why should Tengku Mahaleel buy a sinking company which is IRRELEVANT in terms of engineering expertise ? Of course the commonalities are wheels, shock absorbers,head lights, disc brakes and calipers, engine ,fuel tank etc. *sarcastic*. But a car is a car, not a motorbike.
As what was mentioned by him during the purchase of that company, it was just for the sake of having a “premium brand” name on their line up. The idea is to make a car that people can drive safely, but not in the stage to drive in luxury. Power window problems, hard plastics problem can’t be fixed and yet want to make a premium brand. The vision is there but an unrealistic one in the current situation. Look at Toyota, they only made their successful premium brand, Lexus, about 20 years ago while the company has been there for more than half a century.
Quoted :
“Losing automotive companies like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and many others have been bought by stronger companies and have been turned around. But the prices reflect the assets and the brand. As far as we know they were not sold for one Euro.”
Read : Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin etc… are they motorbike companies in the 1st place ? Are they owned by a struggling car company or a successful car company ?
January 4, 2006 @ 12:50 pm
oiii jolly roger….when tm started work at proton,proton has bout 800million cash and shah alam plant,now proton hav tanjung malim,shah alam,lotus and agusta(sold for stupidly 1euro) and still hav cash money 2.6BILLION…thats what his been doin for the past 8years….open ur eyes la weii…
January 4, 2006 @ 12:50 pm
Shaymen;
I have disagree that the Board have to answer to the 2 TMs. Who the heck are they that the Board need to answer them. The Board will have to answer to the shareholders and the exchange (Bursa) if queried by Bursa. As far as the 2 TMs are concerned, they do not have any legal standing to demand anything. If anything, it is they who have to answer for the actions taken in the past.
This action of the letter and the sniping over the last few months show the spiteful nature and “no class” attitude of the 2 TMs despite being given face, by announcing that he was retiring than being sacked and a police report filed (like one did against Tajuddin Ramli). Rather than let the new management try to get on with the job of rebuilding Proton, they have been constantly making trouble for the new management. It is a clear indication of selfishness on their part. It is extremely hard to symphatise with anyone like this.
January 4, 2006 @ 12:52 pm
azlan the penguin…hahahhahahahah…so right shaymen..
January 4, 2006 @ 1:06 pm
Let the new management decide the fate of Proton.. I hope Proton will come up with new models that is more practical for the majority of the masses. The current new models like Gen 2 & Savvy is percieved as too sporty for some. It has good handling, no doubt, but I guest most Malaysian drivers prefers practicality instead of sportiness from their car.
if u let the new management decide the fate of proton,u will never see proton in 5years time la mate…they will sell all of what proton have,by then we will not have our tiger anymore..most malaysian prefers practicality bcos they dont have money..they been fooled by ppl like khairy jamaludin and rafidah…petrol nak naik 20sen pun takpe..huhuhuhuhu.
January 4, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
Shaymen;
With all due respect my eyes are wide open. Pls note that the cash was built up from the success of products developed before his time. TM himself have come up with duds so far. As for the cash, pls differentiate between cash and free cash. Always judge the cash position of a capex intensive compan by their free cash, and I don’t think Proton has RM 2 b in free cash right now. Therefore, if Proton had RM800 m (that real cash not free cash) when he started, they have less than that now (go check the accounts, I think its free cash is only abt RM 600 million now). Takes some skill to blow that amount of money.
As for the Tjg Malim plant…why on earth would you add capacity when your current capacity is not fully utilised. Sure its nice to have a big plant to show to your golfing buddies and the politicians, but if the capacity utilisation of the whole company drops to half (industry standard is abt 70-75%), I would say its not a well thought out plan. Given that the Tjg Malim plant produces the Gen2 and Savvy, they have a long way to go before they can optimise utilisation. On top of that, TM went and bought a facility in Indonesia and added to the capacity. What the heck for if you are not producing a million cars a year.
January 4, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
when proton bought MV, i really thought it was a brilliant move. By combining a very good car company (LOTUS) and MV, they have all the ingrediants for success. However, i felt there was too little were done after the acquisition ( have anybody heard what proton have in mind during that period?).. there were no effective strategy on how to turn mv around. I strongly believe proton had made the wrong move by selling MV. Technology can be shared ( to some extent).. MV produces high capacity engines (500-1000cc or more). in terms of parts, they can share and commonise loads of parts (i.e piston, piston rings, or even screws!!). Proton do not only loss their money, they lost their integrity and credibility as a “world class manufacturer”
January 4, 2006 @ 1:16 pm
Outpoken;
Just so you know…again this can be found from the announcements…MV Agusta did not have any real technology. Its engines were bought from the Japanese, hence why Proton had to pay the Japs for the engines purchased by MV Agusta. Same goes with Lotus, they do not have their own wngines as far as I can recall. If I am not mstaken, the newer Exige utilise the Nissan engine. My own take is that TM hoodwinked the Board on the real benefits of acquiring MV Agusta. Clearly, after one year, none of it has materialised or even show signs of materialising.
January 4, 2006 @ 1:19 pm
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 12:50 pm
Rather than let the new management try to get on with the job of rebuilding Proton, they have been constantly making trouble for the new management. It is a clear indication of selfishness on their part. It is extremely hard to symphatise with anyone like this.
do you know that proton edar had loss million of rm in its proton 20years promo???in mahaleels time,there is no such stupid promo….what do the new management has done to build up proton???sellin agusta?i also can do that…its not that hard to sell things out,its hard to build a thing that u dont hav…y dont u go and ask kj and pak lah whats next?wanna sell petronas?huhuhuhuhu.why dont just sell our country to singapore…
January 4, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
what i hav learn about proton quality……. all the vendors create this problem……the vendors produce product which is low quality……. but goverment want to help local SMIs or bussinessmen to become player in automative or sparepart market….. but in their mind always thinking how to maximise profit and minimise expenses, so the result BAD quality product….. at the N of the day it effect PROTON goodwill…….
January 4, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
Proton should recruit the stylist from mv agusta, not acquring the company for sake of getting the design powerhouse. (not only acquiring the assets but mounting debts as well). Its a bad move previously. Who made such a move previously n drag proton into more trouble should be taken legal action for management wrongdoings n not left as a free man.
Now this ‘free man’ with his ‘old’ man try to bark into a blank wall while the new man painfully try to clean all the shits they left behind.
January 4, 2006 @ 1:31 pm
anon said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:46 am
i heard this from my friends, both in Perodua n Proton.
“Perodua only sell cars when they have tested and improved while it is still in the development process.â€
“Proton only improve their cars when they receive complaints from at least 100 customers!!â€
perodua mana ada teknologi beb….diaorang kan cut n paste ajer.semua model dari daihatsu dan toyota jer la..daihatsu kan toyota dah makan,dan kau pun tahu toyota ni world no1 carmaker…toyota dah lama buat kereta,dia dah tau mcm2 penyakit,kita baru jer dalam bidang ni..dia boleh achieve mcm tu sebab rakyat si cilaka jepun ni rajin..bukan mcm org malaysia,main skim cepat kaya jer tau…pandai komplen jer,org suruh buat dia tak tau buat…budus.
January 4, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
Shaymen;
You cannot compare what new mgt has done in last few months with what TM has FAILED to do in last 8 years. The new mgt is cleaning up the 8 years of mess.
The result of the 20 yrs promo is reduced margin but it did not result in a direct loss on a per car basis. True, overall Edar may have had to book a loss for the one month of sales but, again if you had attended the analyst briefing, it was necessary to reduce stocks. Had it not been done, there would have to be a depreciation charge of about 20% of the value of the stocks anyway. I seriously suggest you consult a person with some financial knowledge before making suck diatribes.
As for MV Agusta…it is not just selling the entity. It is abt not having to commit further cash and have chance to recoup loans extended to it by TM.
Oh yes, I forgot…apparently TM did something in his 8 years there. He put his son to be in charge of the Motorsports Division and well, that is about it.
As for there not being any “stupid promos” in the past, its because TM let the stock built up. Sometimes he would send the old stock abroad to the “pipeline” and book it as sales. That is bad revenue recognition if there was ever one.
January 4, 2006 @ 1:36 pm
all the above questions need to be answer by Proton…
what if actually there are some other companies willing to pay higher …?
why they need to do it in haste and end up gaining rm4.50 out of the deal?
it is just improper to get turn around the company within a year …
but after all….Proton did own the 2 factory and stock of motorcyle…How much the factories value…and how much the stocks value..?
it is only appropriate for Proton to answer unless they refused to look stupid out of this debate.
drmuzi
January 4, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
to jolly roger.. although you can see any real lotus engines in the exige or elise, they do have the tech to develop engine.. do some research and you will find that porshe paid royalty to lotus for its engine. as for MV, they do design their own engine
January 4, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
Link
January 4, 2006 @ 1:45 pm
Dr Muzi;
Seriously, would you pay to assume millions of Euro in debt. I am sure there were other proposals but the issue is, do these other proposals fit in with Proton’s plans and was it favoured by the creditors of MV Agusta. I was made to understand that the secured creditors of MV Agusta has a lot of say and that the shareholders’ agreement between Proton and the other shareholders of MV Agusta entered into by TM when Proton bought into MV Agusta, was not to Proton’s favour. Given all these restrictions as to what you can do with the company and the debts, would anyone want to buy it for more that a token sum?
January 4, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
Outspoken;
Yes Lotus does have the technical capability to develop new engines but the fact of the matter is that they neither have the cash nor manufacturing capacity, apart from small runs. The article that was hotlinked is from 1997 and is by all accounts a promo article, so lets not put too much credibility on it. As it stands, the Exige uses a Toyota engine. Not too sure what the new Lotus that will be launched at the Geneva Motor Show will have under its bonnet (have been told it would be a Nissan sourced engine), but it is not a Lotus developed engine. Lotus’ main selling points are its styling capabilities and ride&handling tuning. Not engines. BTW this new car is extremely pleasing to the eye….
I honestly hope that Lotus would remain within the company’s stable for the foreseeable future. I also hope that Proton would put in a Malaysian to run Lotus as clearly the ppl they have running it on the ground right now have not done anything.
As for MV Agusta. You are right to suggest that they can develop their own engines but the fact of the matter is that money was spent to purchase engines and engine parts of its behalf. Perhaps it has more to do with cost effectiveness rather than technical merits I dunno.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
As for the Tjg Malim plant…why on earth would you add capacity when your current capacity is not fully utilised.
what product success bfor his time?that saga?huh…that money is money from the loan the gov give to proton laa…proton really hav 2.6billioncash money laa..that 2.6billion is after paying all tanjung malims debt u know….go and check with bank negara la jolly..(if its not there,maybe someone from the new management hav taken it la)
waahh so cerdik la u jolly….have u been to shah alam?have u been to tanjung malim?cars made in shah alam were made by human while at tanjung malim all cars were made by robohands…yes,they are only using 2 or 3 lines for production,but thats why vw wants to share the plant with them..proton let them use their plant,they share their nazis technology with proton..thats what tm had plan to do..not to sell it to vw like the new management has wanted 2do…
January 4, 2006 @ 2:08 pm
well…jully roger u said that u were made to understand so and so…
it could be just hearsay…
that is Proton need to response…..
to clarify..
As would i bought the MV AGUSTA…well tun had give an example, u just need to read his explanation morecareful:
“Losing automotive companies like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and many others have been bought by stronger companies and have been turned around. But the prices reflect the assets and the brand”
January 4, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
Shaymen;
You clearly did not read what I said. The products developed before his time would include all cars up to Waja and the CamPro engine. These were developed well before he joined as Head of Strategy one year before he got promoted to CEO. His own babies have been the Gen2 and Savvy…good cars but poor sellers as it did not meet market wants. He also missed the boat for MPVs and SUVs, 2 of the fastest growing segments in the domestic market.
As for the cash…I do hope you never have to sit for a CA examination. Learn to calculate free cash. Cash is not king if it is pledged. I urge you to read the Q2 results, particularly notes 20 and 26. Once you have, perhaps you will begin to understand why this RM 2 b in cash is actually only RM975 million. Given that, as the Edge ointed out, Proton eats up RM130 million in cash each month, it does not sound like a lot does it.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
Dr Muzi;
The term “I was made to undestand” is not a connotation of hearsay, lets just leave it at that. Suffice to say, the price anyone would pay for MV Agusta now reflects the value of the company as perceived by the buyer. Sure it would have been easier to just keep on holding the company and pump in more cash to fatten up the Italians at the expense of Malaysians, but business involves a lot of hard choices. Given that the share price of Proton improved upon announcement of the sale has got to mean a few other informed investors agree with this assessment.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:20 pm
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
The result of the 20 yrs promo is reduced margin but it did not result in a direct loss on a per car basis. True, overall Edar may have had to book a loss for the one month of sales but, again if you had attended the analyst briefing, it was necessary to reduce stocks. Had it not been done, there would have to be a depreciation charge of about 20% of the value of the stocks anyway. I seriously suggest you consult a person with some financial knowledge before making suck diatribes.
oii kawanku jolly….edar make that promo started sep till nov only laaa..in dec they pull the handbrake bcos of what?bcos they had loss oready maa..ppl clear stock in dec laa…u go and see all edar showroom now..all free stock,why?bcos of that stupid promo laaa…huhuhuhu.they hav to give discount in jan anyway to clear the 05 stock…might just make the promo in dec and jan….stupid edar management!
January 4, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
Clearly some of us have rose tinted glasses on at the moment. Despite being given the suggestion to look beyond the cash hype and focus on free cash, look beyond the new plant hype and focus on capacity utilisation, look beyond loss margins and focus on stock clearance and avoidance of depreciation charge on stocks, there is still insistance that TM did nothing wrong in his 8 years and new management has got it all wrong in its 6 or 7 months there.
It is time we look beyond the hype and focus on the numbers and KPIs. TM has had his chance and he did a few thing well enough. However, Proton is operating in an environment that needs more than just dreamers and so called visionaries. It needs ppl that can execute and deliver. Syed Zainal is new and will probably make mistakes along the way but I doubt that he would be any worse off than the past few CEOs at Proton. He also seems to be less brash and “removed” compared to his predecessor, more in tune with operations etc. He also appears to be qualified in that he is an engineer unlike TM who has a degree in history (the engineering doctorate is honorary only, so it does not count).
I for one am not interested in the past but more in what the future holds for Proton. Hopefully once this financial year ends, Proton will be able to map out its plans going forward and implement them. As I have said before, plans are meaningless, what matters is execution. Until then, the jury is still out on current mgt.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:29 pm
outspoken said,
January 4, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
to jolly roger.. although you can see any real lotus engines in the exige or elise, they do have the tech to develop engine.. do some research and you will find that porshe paid royalty to lotus for its engine. as for MV, they do design their own engine
i definitely agree with this outspoken person….dont u think that jolly is a freak?he really thinks he’s a genius…pakar economoney la katakan.i believe he knows everythin laa…ooiii jolly,why did kj and paklah sell our telekom malaysia to singapore huh?why did kj and paklah sell mas to qantas huh?who is rafidah aziz huh?why paklah is so scared of her huh?
January 4, 2006 @ 2:36 pm
Shaymen;
You are entitled to that view of yours and I am sure you have good sources, as we all do here. However, before you proclaim to be a know it all when it comes to Proton, how do you explain for your clear inability to differentiate cash and free cash and what actually matters. Apart from that, despie rebuking Proton for the 20 yrs sale you still have yet to provide some alternatives to the predicament that Edar was in - sell at lower margin or suffer depreciation chrage while still keeping stocks. What would you have done? Yes the promo was until Nov but how sure are you that the impact on accounts went beyond 1 month. Again we all have our sources so I will not go deeper on that.
I have said it before and I will say it again. TM did not do much in his 8 years at Proton. Had he done so, Proton would now have a full product line (MPVs and SUVs) and would have turned around Lotus, which is still bleeding at the moment. Proton would also now be in China, India and in great numbers across ASEAN. The sad fact of the matter is that all these have not happen and as CEO, he has to take responsibility. The buck stops there.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:45 pm
from jolly-Just so you know…again this can be found from the announcements…MV Agusta did not have any real technology. Its engines were bought from the Japanese, hence why Proton had to pay the Japs for the engines purchased by MV Agusta. Same goes with Lotus, they do not have their own wngines as far as I can recall. If I am not mstaken, the newer Exige utilise the Nissan engine. My own take is that TM hoodwinked the Board on the real benefits of acquiring MV Agusta. Clearly, after one year, none of it has materialised or even show signs of materialising.
see clearly this so called economist dont know whats he’s talking…nissan engine..LOL….MV dont have technology..hahahahha..MV soo stupid that they can design and built helicopters..and produce exotic bikes deemed one of the best in the world..not to mention small engine too…azlan said it’s not core biz for proton into bikes..then we have only modenas as malaysian small bike..and its a kawasaki rebadge like those naza bikes..that market is untapped yet…i am proud of proton..the only true malaysian car..perodua is owned by japs..51%by daihatsu and mitsui corp..only 49% by malaysia..and that what malaysian proud..when r u gonna learn to build and engineer something on our own like this huh?proton bashers?do u think america is so great b’cos they just essembly things from other countries and rebadge?
January 4, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
Shaymen;
I have never claimed to be anything other than an ex investment banker. I have never said I was an expert in economics, law or anyhing. If you think I am a freak for being able to read reports and interpret their impact, so be it. I suppose its better than mouthing about some fantasy numbers without understanding them. If my comments have made yours to appear less credible and intelligent, pls have my apologies. It was not my attention to make your comments appear incoherent, ill-informed and somewhat rave-like. In my defence I would have to say you did that to yourself, and you did a good job I would say.
I am sorry that I cannot answer abt Telekom as my coverage is only for manufacturing sector not services. However I am sure, given the chance, you would enlighten all of us here. After all you seem to have all the answers.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:49 pm
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
He also appears to be qualified in that he is an engineer unlike TM who has a degree in history (the engineering doctorate is honorary only, so it does not count).
oii kawanku jolly…tm is a rally car driver laa..
January 4, 2006 @ 2:52 pm
Shaymen;
With regard to Lotus’ engines. Read what I said carefully. Lotus can design engines but their own cars are using Toyota’ engines. Designing and manufacturing engines are different things.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:55 pm
With regard to Lotus’ engines. Read what I said carefully. Lotus can design engines but their own cars are using Toyota’ engines. Designing and manufacturing engines are different things.
at first before someone here correct him..he said nissan engines..what about the esprit engine?does he know what is the esprit anyway?
January 4, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
Shaymen;
I have tried to be civil but alas you have difficulty grasping the concept. Look through the annual reports my fren. I am not talking abt what TM did I am taliking abt his education. He is a history major not an engineer like Syed Zainal. That is why in my opinion SZ would be better for Proton compared to TM. As for him being a rally driver, would that make him a better CEO? If you have to make a comment pls let it be an informed and intelligent comment the next time. Focus less on personal attacks on ore on facts pls.
January 4, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
Paramsingwalia
The Agusta choppers are not designed by MV Agusta. Different company mate. As for the engine, I have corrected that it is a Toyota
January 4, 2006 @ 3:00 pm
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
Shaymen;
I have tried to be civil but alas you have difficulty grasping the concept. Look through the annual reports my fren. I am not talking abt what TM did I am taliking abt his education. He is a history major not an engineer like Syed Zainal. That is why in my opinion SZ would be better for Proton compared to TM. As for him being a rally driver, would that make him a better CEO? If you have to make a comment pls let it be an informed and intelligent comment the next time. Focus less on personal attacks on ore on facts pls.
i think its u who is on personal attacks on tm…so what if he is not an engineer?…i dont think the new MAS boss is a pilot but nobody attack him..and by the way..TM did good for a CEO..u just have to have an open mind and not just see a piece of paper someone want u 2 see.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
Paramsingwalia
Esprit has not been in production for a long time. Again, my comments are about what they can do now. Sure they can design but manufacturing engines is not a core competency for Lotus.
As for your comments abt me being an economist, you said it not me. I have not said anything abt me being an economist. The fact that you can come to this conclusion without any factual reference colours my opinion about the quality of all your postings.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
Paramsingwalia
The Agusta choppers are not designed by MV Agusta. Different company mate. As for the engine, I have corrected that it is a Toyota
subsidiaries mate
January 4, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
Paramsingwalia;
Personal attacks against other posters la. That was what I was refering to As for my comment abt TM’s educational qualification, that is a statement of fact not an attack. My comments abt his failure as CEO is not derived from his eucational background but actual performance over 8 years.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
Paramsingwalia
Esprit has not been in production for a long time. Again, my comments are about what they can do now. Sure they can design but manufacturing engines is not a core competency for Lotus.
wahhh..looks like u r an ex lotus employes now…i suggest u go to ethel urself to find out more
January 4, 2006 @ 3:06 pm
Paramsingwalia;
Agusta choppers are not part of the MV Agusta group. The Agusta helicopters are part of the Agusta Westland Group (see http://www.agusta.com). MV Agusta is a different group altogether (see http://www.mvagusta.it). Sorry mate, you’ve got it wrong again.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:07 pm
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
Paramsingwalia;
Personal attacks against other posters la. That was what I was refering to As for my comment abt TM’s educational qualification, that is a statement of fact not an attack. My comments abt his failure as CEO is not derived from his eucational background but actual performance over 8 years.
okay..what’s is his failures compared to the old EX CEO he replaced?
January 4, 2006 @ 3:08 pm
Paramsingwalia;
Its in Hethel and not Ethel…and yes I have been there a few times, thank you very much. FYI, the man running Lotus right now, a Kim Ogaard Nielsen was put in place by TM, and this guy too did not have any experience from automotive industry previously.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
failures of TM…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..see anything?
January 4, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:08 pm
Paramsingwalia;
Its in Hethel and not Ethel…and yes I have been there a few times, thank you very much. FYI, the man running Lotus right now, a Kim Ogaard Nielsen was put in place by TM, and this guy too did not have any experience from automotive industry previously.
wahhhh..know sooo much…but still dont know what engine exige uses..LOL
January 4, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
P;
Read my previous post on what I think are his failures. He has not run the company into the ground (although had Proton kept MV Agusta, that could have happen). He missed trends shifting towards ppl movers rather than cars, he missed diesel gaining popularity in Europe, he missed China and India…..so on and so forth.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
maybe i should copy u…typing here while browsing the lotus webpage…hahahahahahahahhahahahaha…every knowledge u get from the internet baybe…
January 4, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
P;
I have corrected well before you chipped in. Its a Toyota eng. Your mistake about MV Agusta and Agusta helicopters however, is by far more obvious.
That said, you still miss the point. Lotus does not have their own engines at the moment. BTW I do not proclaim to know “so much” as you put it. These are after all publicly available.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
P;
At least I know how to conduct a desktop search using the internet. You should learn it too.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:16 pm
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
P;
Read my previous post on what I think are his failures. He has not run the company into the ground (although had Proton kept MV Agusta, that could have happen). He missed trends shifting towards ppl movers rather than cars, he missed diesel gaining popularity in Europe, he missed China and India…..so on and so forth.
have u got any clue how many ppl movers are registered here last year?..not worth the developtment…
he misses china…u miss one chapter from here or ur other internet sources…china dont want us to get there..they r smarter than us not to open their market so that their car manufacturerer will survived..
surf more man..LOL
January 4, 2006 @ 3:18 pm
lotus sure do not have engine right now…u want proton to developed their engines or our campro first?
January 4, 2006 @ 3:20 pm
to develope engines will cost millions..that’s why they develope campro first..for mass pro..bigger market than sport engine
January 4, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
I for one am not interested in the past but more in what the future holds for Proton. Hopefully once this financial year ends, Proton will be able to map out its plans going forward and implement them. As I have said before, plans are meaningless, what matters is execution. Until then, the jury is still out on current mgt.
im sure by the year ends proton will end up loosing if they still kept doin promo like the p20years and their chairman keep selling what proton have..:)
January 4, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:20 pm
do i know u from somewhere???u sound like dato maruan the gay guy…
January 4, 2006 @ 3:30 pm
oii jolly bean…
just answer this u investment banker..why the hell did u think that selling MV is good b4 tech transfer whereelse tun said that MV debt dont have to pay untill 3 years time??????????????????????????
we paid already what…use it la..then u said new management good..how’s that?
January 4, 2006 @ 3:33 pm
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:20 pm
do i know u from somewhere???u sound like dato maruan the gay guy…
LOL…i think that jolly guy is the gay one…been to lotus but dont know what engine in exige…i bet his boyfriend changed his car tyre for him
January 4, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
shaymen…
do u think we should sell MV like the jolly bean said….so called investment banker for temasek i presumed
January 4, 2006 @ 3:40 pm
jolly…syed zainal knows nothin laa..he did nothin while in perodua…what is his achievement so far?ppl buy perodua bcos they dont have money to buy proton or a better car..syed zainal doesnt know what to do with proton.he doesnt have an idea to move proton..
January 4, 2006 @ 3:45 pm
he’s only following penguin’s ordesr…spend all the money in proton..then ask the jolly bean the investment banker to sell their shares to temasek and vw..
January 4, 2006 @ 3:47 pm
paramsingwalia,
i think jolly bean is an agent for singapore la…he tried to change all our stupid malaysian mindset to sell everything to singapore…thats why he’s here in this forum..even sepang wanna sell to singapore…crazy!….eyy,beware..he’s an ex investment banker who goes bankcrupt….thats why he didnt work no more.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
paramsingwalia,
are you sure ur not dato maruan the gay guy?…..wait a minutes,i know u….you are khairy jamaludin huh?the most powerfull man in malaysia…
January 4, 2006 @ 3:52 pm
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:47 pm
paramsingwalia,
i think jolly bean is an agent for singapore la…he tried to change all our stupid malaysian mindset to sell everything to singapore…thats why he’s here in this forum..even sepang wanna sell to singapore…crazy!….eyy,beware..he’s an ex investment banker who goes bankcrupt….thats why he didnt work no more.
hahhaahhahaahha….that jolly bean and his ideas..wanna make money out of proton only…asked him,why does temasek bought proton shares recently if it’s as bad as he’economist cum investment banker’say its so bad…
he never answered…jolly bean.
January 4, 2006 @ 3:53 pm
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
paramsingwalia,
are you sure ur not dato maruan the gay guy?…..wait a minutes,i know u….you are khairy jamaludin huh?the most powerfull man in malaysia…
or the quiet singaporean?
January 4, 2006 @ 3:55 pm
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
paramsingwalia,
are you sure ur not dato maruan the gay guy?…..wait a minutes,i know u….you are khairy jamaludin huh?the most powerfull man in malaysia…
fuuyooo..so brave u shaymen..nanti i.s.a….better stop dude..maybe we talk when im the youngest pm ever..aged 13..huhuuuhuhuhuhuhuh
January 4, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
aiyo param….im not talking like that theresa kok laaa…im not a racist.im not a fighter,im a lover…i love my country.
January 4, 2006 @ 4:13 pm
aiseh,,shaymen..ur a lover kaaa????sonds like PD..P diddy lyrics only…hehehehehehehe…anyway to quote mr noh…tak suka balik la…then i say..dont like proton..dont buy la…naik t bikes pun ok.
January 4, 2006 @ 4:16 pm
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
aiyo param….im not talking like that theresa kok laaa…im not a racist.im not a fighter,im a lover…i love my country.
u love ur country then stop people like jolly bean from trying to sell our assets to temasek n co la…anyway where’s jolly bean???surfing for info or reading the stock exchange?
January 4, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
param…
i miss out what ur talking with jolly earlier…no wonder he sounds like pst(profesor serba tau)…hmmm,now that u know he’s been copying from the internet,he’s tryin to be quiet huh…i told someone bfor that he’s a freak..
anyway…i still thinks that sellin agusta is a bad idea..we should hav done somethin with it rather than sellin it for 1euro..why dont propose to me earlier..i would like to buy it.make my own bike and compete with modenas..ppl would say that its crazy to buy a company with lots of debt,my say..if that company is not in trouble,they woudnt sell it at the first place…we should buy it and try to turn it around laaa….thats the risk we have to take in business…what do u think?
January 4, 2006 @ 4:27 pm
Shaymen and Paramsingwalia;
You guys clearly believe in your own hype.
And since when did Dr M not spoken with a forked-tongue. If you feel it was a bad move to sell of MV Agusta, so be it. The investors clearly do not think so. As for being gay, sorry to disappoint you if you had such fantasies to begin with. But it just shows the type of person both of you are, when you have nothing positive nor intelligent to say, always opt for personal attacks and homophobic diatribes. Hopefully both of you would wise up and post more informed comments in the future rather than debase this blog.
My comments on ppl movers stand. MPVs are the fastest growing segment as per MAA figures and Proton missed the boat. Naza built up their cash hoard due to their success in rebadging and selling their MPVs. He missed China because he made a mistake with regard to the partner. He missed India because he wanted to send Wiras rather than Iswaras as the market there had demanded. He missed the boat with regard to the vendors because he failed to get them to sign an important pice of agreement that would have allowed Porotn to penalise non-performance.
With regard to Lotus, P, you echo my point. They do not have an engine at the moment full stop. Having a capability and proving that capability are two different things. Given the happenings with MV Agusta, I am sure the new management will now focus on reviving Lotus - something that TM has failed miserably to do during his 8 “glory filled” years at Proton.
As for engines, P, you are absolutely right. Proton did develop an engine for the mass market first. However, there are gaps in the lower cc segment hence it had to buy from Renault for its Savvy. To this day, despite te trend heaing towards smaller enines, Proton does not have its own programme for small engines (less than 1.3) nor diesels. I had never said Lotus should develop their engines, I was merely retoring to the comment that Lotus has its own engines which is not true.
I stand by my comments on MV Agusta. It was a bad investment to begin with, particularly when the assets of the company could have been bought for a song by just waiting for MV Agusta to go under completely (it was under the Italian version of sec 176 when Proton bought it for E 70 million). A little known fact was that MV Agusta has never been profitable since the owners broke off from Ducati. Also little known was that it was hawked off to Piaggio ( a big motorbike company in Itay) that backed out of the deal after seeing the mess it was in. Would it also surprise you if I told you that the bank that held the shares of the owner as a pledge had earlier tried to sell off a controlling stake in MV Agusta for a mere E 10 million a year earlier. I would be concern that a company nearing bankruptcy can have its value jump 7 fold ina year.
The decision to sell it off ws understandable given the debt and cash burn rate. Given that MV Agusta eats up Proton’s cash resources (RM500 m for a year thus far), Lotus’ cash needs and Proton’s own, how long would the free cash (not cash) pile that Proton have last.
MV Agusta’s assets? What assets? Buildings and brands that are pledged to creditors? Stocks that nobody wants to buy? Machinery and equipment that are so specialised that you will need to sell it of as scrap to get back any value? C’mon guys…be a bit more analytical lah.
My comments on the difference between MV Agusta and AgustaWestland still remains a balck mark on P’s credibility. Sure, he will go on and on like a broken record on my mistake betweeh a Toyota and Nissan engine…but hey, I am not an engineer not mat kereta. My concern is on the company. As for Shaymen, clearly he needs to read the accounts properly…he has yet to address his clear lack of understanding as to Proton’s cash position. Even after pointing out the exact number of the notes to the accounts to him, he has yet to admit he made a mistake with his numbers.
As for me being to Lotus and not knowing the engine…well, firstly I have corrected it. Secondly, I am not an engineer and I don’t really care abt technical stuff. My main concern is making money or stopping the bleeding. The whole point of the sale is to stop the bleeding. What would you have suggested? Take Dr M’s word and leave it like that?
As for Syed Zainal, he may or may not be what you said. I would give him a chance. After all TM was given 8 years to show what he cannot do.
Btw, you’re right I don’t change my own tires since I don’t drive but get driven. If any of you aspire to be driven, try to do your homework and pay attention to the numbers. At the very least, read properly and do your research.
Regards
January 4, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
S and P;
I have to add that I am concerned that Malaysians such as yourself (if that is what you are) can be so homophobic and xenophobic. You a