This press release was forwarded to me not too long ago. It’s a joint release letter by Tun Dr. M and Tengku Mahaleel on the matter of Proton’s sale of MV Agusta.
Among questions asked are who made the decision to sell MV Agusta, and why was an entity bought at a price of 70 million Euros sold at such a low price of 1 Euro, when even though MV Agusta was making a loss, the 3 brands it carried (M.V. Agusta, Cagiva and Husqvarna) held a high value.
You should find this interesting.
Sale of MV Agusta – by Tun Dr Mahathir and Tengku Tan Sri Mahaleel
As the people who were responsible for the purchase of Meccanica Verghera Agusta (M.V. Agusta) motorcycle manufacturer of Italy, we, Tun Dr Mahathir bin Mohamad and Tengku Tan Sri Mahaleel Tengku Ariff, think Proton owes an explanation to Proton shareholders and to the public the reason a company that was bought for Euro 70 million (RM315 million) was sold for one Euro (RM4.50).
This sale must cause Proton to lose RM315 million less RM4.50. Assuming that this relieves Proton from paying the loss incurred by M.V. Agusta over the 15 months at Euro 26.87 million (or RM131 million), it would still lose the purchase price of Euro 70 million (RM315 million) by selling off at one Euro.
There is now no possibility for Proton to turn around the company and regain its purchase price, if not make a profit. Of course Proton will now not get access to M.V. Agusta engineering technology.
Proton bought M.V. Agusta knowing full well that it has a debt of Euro 232 million, which it does not have to pay for three years. M.V. Agusta has assets in the form of two plants (in Cassinetta and Morazzone) and stocks of motorcycles.
In addition M.V. Agusta owns three brands – M.V. Agusta, Cagiva and Husqvarna. The M.V. Agusta F4 1000 Tamburini (photo above) is recognised as the best sports motorcycle in the world. All these brands have high values.
M.V. Agustas technology in motorcycle and small engines is acknowledged by the industry as second to none.
Losing automotive companies like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and many others have been bought by stronger companies and have been turned around. But the prices reflect the assets and the brand. As far as we know they were not sold for one Euro.
The question is can Proton turn around M.V. Agusta? Until lately Proton has been profitable. It built its facilities in Tanjung Malim for RM1.8 billion with its own money – no borrowings and no injection of capital from the Government.
After building this facility Proton still has more than RM2 billion in cash. Proton was a profitable company and must know something about management to make profits.
The recent loss by Proton is said to be due to provisions made for M.V. Agusta loans. But in answer to questions by the Press, a Proton manager (Datuk Maruan Mohd Said, CEO Proton Edar) admitted that the discounts given by Proton have affected the profits of Proton. Unfortunately no figures are given.
But apparently a total of 54,000 cars were sold in three months with rebates and large discounts which include free registration, free insurance, free first installment payment for three months and free service. Roughly the discount per car would be around RM2,000 or more. At RM2,000 on 54,000 cars, Proton would forego RM108 million. The increase in the number sold cannot make up for the amount foregone.
These figures which reflect a failed strategy have not been given. Instead the loss is attributed to provision for debts of M.V. Agusta. When provisions are made for bad debts, it does not necessarily mean that the debts cannot be recovered. Besides how is the quantum determined? The debts of M.V. Agusta are frozen in any case and it need not be paid immediately. Has the amount provided been paid so as to reduce M.V. Agustas debts or is it still with Proton when M.V. Agusta was sold at one Euro?
There are in fact many questions which have to be answered regarding the sale at one Euro of an entity that was bought at Euro 70 million.
- Who offered to sell or who offered to buy at one Euro?
- Were there other bidders?
- Was there an attempt to get the buyer to pay a higher price?
- Was there an announcement that M.V. Agusta was up for sale?
- If not did Proton approach only one bidder?
- If other bidders were offered, did they reject?
- Who in fact made the decision to sell?
- Can Proton explain how selling an entity bought at Euro 70 million for one Euro would not cause Proton to lose money as is claimed?
Gevi S.p.A. is not a household name in the automotive industry. Is it a motorcycle company, confident that it can turn around M.V. Agusta, something that the sale by Proton implies that Proton has no capacity or ability to turn it around? Not having to pay Euro 70 million will be an advantage for Gevi.
These are questions that need answering. As the two people most involved in the purchase of M.V. Agusta, our credibility and honesty is at stake. We want to know the correct answers. The public too may want to know as Proton is a National project.
Looking to sell your car? Sell it with Carro.
Let the new management decide…
Hmm… biasalah… isu for some time, after a while will get swept under the carpet… this one notwithstanding…
The sale does clearly indicate something stated in the letter – The incapability of Proton to turn around and safe a sinking vessel. Face the fact. Sometimes other new leaders dont see what the previous leaders foresaw (or dream of), but they might have newer visions and dreams (which may also turn out to be nightmares a few years down the road).
However, I doubt this is the only million to one for sale case. I believe BMW did this before. Sold off MG for 1 gbp or 1 euro – something like that. Cant recall clearly though. Can someone look it up on this?
So if BMW boleh – Malaysia boleh also la…
Oops correction :
The company called Phoenix Four bought Rover from BMW in the year 2000 for a mere £10… Thats about RM65.50. Hrmm still much more than 1 euro which is about RM4 something. ;)
i dunno bout u guys, but somehow i like the way Tengku manages proton..i can see he has a vission..he was trying to develope proton to a sporty-focused brand..i'm sure he aquired MV agusta after some research and he was confident tat MV agusta can be turned around..i believe tat he intends to use the technology and design from MV agusta and applies it into proton..and b4 he could kick start his plans, he was "forced" out of proton..this is my point of view..hopefully no bashing towards me..
yes, i kinda agree with you Infinity. Mahalel had the vision to develop proton as a brand as opposed to the current board that seems to be aligned towards manufacturing and operations.
i think the problem with proton is still chronic cronism – Mahalel had excellent vision, however, it translated poorly as it went down the line. This is evident in all GLCs such as MAS, BCB, TM, TNB and many more during the Mahathir era.
we all know where this leads to, but since Paul doesn't like talking about it fearing the ISA, we'll just leave it right here … ;-)
history is history and it can't be undone. what i hope now is that proton will come out with more attractive, better quality and sefety cars in near future. hope this 2006 new year is the beginning of our so calles " national pride " to show that malaysia is still boleh. ok?
well when BMW sold rover to phoneix four for 10quid, it has taken out the mini marque and factory out of rover (and it still owns), and also the Land Rover marque which it later sold to ford for a hansome sum.
when BMW sold off rover, they are only offloading the unprofitable stuff in rover, while they took out all the good stuff.
proton?
biasalah bila reputation at stake. blame the next guy.
always work
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
He also appears to be qualified in that he is an engineer unlike TM who has a degree in history (the engineering doctorate is honorary only, so it does not count).
oii kawanku jolly…tm is a rally car driver laa..
With regard to Lotus’ engines. Read what I said carefully. Lotus can design engines but their own cars are using Toyota’ engines. Designing and manufacturing engines are different things.
at first before someone here correct him..he said nissan engines..what about the esprit engine?does he know what is the esprit anyway?
Paramsingwalia
The Agusta choppers are not designed by MV Agusta. Different company mate. As for the engine, I have corrected that it is a Toyota
Paramsingwalia
Esprit has not been in production for a long time. Again, my comments are about what they can do now. Sure they can design but manufacturing engines is not a core competency for Lotus.
As for your comments abt me being an economist, you said it not me. I have not said anything abt me being an economist. The fact that you can come to this conclusion without any factual reference colours my opinion about the quality of all your postings.
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
Paramsingwalia
The Agusta choppers are not designed by MV Agusta. Different company mate. As for the engine, I have corrected that it is a Toyota
subsidiaries mate
Paramsingwalia;
Personal attacks against other posters la. That was what I was refering to As for my comment abt TM’s educational qualification, that is a statement of fact not an attack. My comments abt his failure as CEO is not derived from his eucational background but actual performance over 8 years.
Guess wat folks…its another bad soap opera and the storyline reads like this:
2 parkinson desease hit old bloke…shitting on the jamban without flushing it away. Later when they both were halau from the jamban and now the new owner took over the jamban…guess wat? they are the one who questioning who leave that smelly shit behind inside the jamban!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wat a freaking lousy corpsy f**king soap opera I had ever seeeeee…KNNCCB
And…where is SEE FU??? YAO MOU GAO………..CHOR (R) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
Oh my god…I honestly can't believe that TM has come out attacking his successors at Proton. Somehow, now, he's concerned with 'his credibility' which apparently is at stake. I can't deny that their questions are valid, and as a Malaysian I would like the current Proton board to answer them. But this TM is f***ing unbelieveable. NOW only he's concerned with his 'credibility'. What about other mismanagement in Proton all this while, when he was at the top? He was there for more than 8 years, but all the basic things that a car marque should do, wasn't done. Quality deteriorated, quality control was abysmal, and almost every Malaysian was disapointed with Proton. Going deeper, he has wasted tonnes and tonnes of cash for indecisions, for cancelling projects etc. Not to mention the amount of money he spent in building the CEO office which apparently is even complete with a spa (I was told it was about RM7Million). He's talking like if he was still CEO of Proton, he was the one who could have turned MV Agusta around. But after 8 years at the top, Proton was still going nowhere. Isn't he worried about his credibility for everything else? To me, personally, he has no right whatsoever to question the current board's decisions, especially since no one was allowed to question his decisions when he was on top. Come on TM, gather what you have left of your dignity, and just retire in silence.
As of disposing MV Agusta for Euro1, I have no qualms with that, but I definitely would like to know the answers to all those questions. To me, Proton are turning a corner, and as they've said before, they are now trying to focus all their efforts on basic stuff. Don't dream of running if you can't even walk properly, right? (That was what TM did, worse still, he was dreaming of flying when he couldn't even crawl) I look at it like this, just by selling for Euro1, you are free of Euro232Million of debt. I might be wrong, but to me that does actually make sense. Especially if that company is not part of your long term plans.
Sounds like a publicity stunt
Now cannot save p1 now wanna win the Oscars?
To Zongtwi,
Mahaleel's legacy in Proton would be in terms of the Savvy and other cars to be launched by this year, if there's any. He spent his early years as the CEO trying to build up the R&D. The next logical step is to get something where most carmakers don't have, proper car stylists. IMHO, Proton should have tapped MV Augusta of their top Italian designers before chucking it off..
Isamu, I agree with you, they should have done that. But, if it's not in their plans, then it's not in their plans. The main thing in Proton right now is to improve quality, from their own efforts as well as the vendors and suppliers. If they can't keep the quality at an acceptable levels, what is the use of the technology they've tapped from MV Agusta if their current cars aren't selling? Or even if they are selling, let the Malaysian public WANT to buy their cars, not FORCED to buy their cars, if you know what I'm saying.
Yes, TM's legacy does include Savvy, which I have to say is a decent car. It also includes the SRM, which nearly after 2 years of it's supposed launch, is still yet to be seen. It also includes the Chancellor (judge the car yourself). It also includes projects that got cancelled (I can't mention them due to confidentiality) which costed millions down the drain. It also includes the reduction in market shares, because Proton can't even compete in the local market. You're right, he focused on R&D, I can't deny that he had his own vission in improving Proton. But he should have focussed on quality, and customer satisfaction, adding value for money, which in turn would increase car sales.
I agree with you mate, the next logical step would be to get a proper car stylist. But you can't deny, the first ever step should have been improving quality. Doesn't it make sense to get that right first before anything else? He's been there for 8 years, and the quality levels of Proton's products have been shameful, not only to Proton but the Malaysian people as well. Like I said before, you've got to learn how to walk, before you can run.
I saw buying MV Agusta as probably a right thing but obviously at the wrong time. Another thing, it's not only me that thinks that selling MV Agusta for Euro1 made sense. Their share prices increased by 15sen straight after. Obviously, people who know their economics saw it as a good decision.
to speed junkie…..i went to tm office myself,theres no spa la weiii…..
Well, why on earth did they buy M V Agusta????
For me, Proton has the know-how to build a car but it only need to watch out for the quality of parts and the finish product. Time and time again its the fault of our vendors
most CEO of GLC do not have a vision of what the company will be in the next 50yrs. TM vision is very grand indeed. However he alone cannot translate his vision into reality. He build up the R&D dept. till wat it is today.
Most other CEO of GLCs be it MAS/Proton/TM do not have a vision of wat the company should be. Most of them akin to bean counters that lack the foresight of what the company under his care should be in 20-50yrs time. Infact what they really want is that under their tenure (1-10yrs) the company should not make a loss.
A leader without a vision is only a boss (b. schultz)
——–After building this facility Proton still has more than RM2 billion in cash. Proton was a profitable company and must know something about management to make profits.
just imagine if others giant automative company JV with proton N become decision maker……. the cash flow of proton is the main reason Y others 1 to JV with proton…….
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 9:02 am
to speed junkie…..i went to tm office myself,theres no spa la weiii…..
————————————————————
well, that info I got from not only one Proton employee, but almost everyone that I've met told me so. But if that info is wrong, then I won't hesitate to take it back.
Anyway, I won't be sucked into arguing with anyone. Honestly I can't be bothered. I only have one last point to make. When Jeremy Clarkson smashed up the Kelisa, there was an outrage for his head. If that were to happen to Proton, JC would suddenly be everyone's friend. Am I right? Now, why do MOST of the Malaysian public hate Proton? And this occurs during whose legacy? Vission in one thing, but having loyal support from the local market is another. I'm sure performance wise, Perodua's cars can't be compared with Proton's. But MOST Malaysians love them because of it's build quality etc.Ok, maybe TM had vission for the next 50 years, but without improving the basic stuff, Proton won't survive the next 5.
Back to Paul's post, I just think that TM is eating sour grapes, and trying to get back at the people who ousted him from Proton. I strongly feel that TM should just have kept quiet and he should stop meddling with Proton's current affairs. It would be very interesting to hear the answers to those questions. I do hope the current board responds.
fine, zongtwi i quite agreed to most of the argument u threw out, but it's too harsh though. Pls correct your words that Mahaleel was the management in P1 instead of TM, he was the one making decision for P1 and supported by TM instead.
Maybe the fella had all the vision to run a so-called "world class" car maker, but it can't be achieved through jumping on his ground and "siok" for himself only. A vision means of a Top-to-Down inspiration of the whole company component to make a thing success. He should choose to implant that kind of spirit in the company, confident of its quality across whole country, nurture that far before. A man with vision doesn't translate to success if he don't know how to do it.
While P1 exploited the potential in this merely bolehland, all the while worldwide car makers are advancing rapidly throughout globalisation challenge, and now it gonna to face it but found then it has no gound at all, and not a proper stance yet!!!
Good luck for P1 new management, hope they have a proper strategies to lead P1 towards right direction. I voted for selling off the MV Agusta instead of keeping the tumor distract the main focus. While maybe they are in rush to sell it out.
haha proton are going backwards. after mv agusta, now they want to ditch lotus. WTH. obviously they wanted to wipe off mahaleel's marks. all the hard work before wasted. its not about mahaleel wanna taunt current management. its just his puzzled (so do me) with proton's decisions. what can we expect from proton in the future? making old mitsubishi models again? rubbish
Zongtwi a.k.a. Speed Junkie said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:10 am
—–Back to Paul’s post, I just think that TM is eating sour grapes, and trying to get back at the people who ousted him from Proton. I strongly feel that TM should just have kept quiet and he should stop meddling with Proton’s current affairs. It would be very interesting to hear the answers to those questions. I do hope the current board responds.
ello brader….. they want 2 defend theirself…… kalu diam depa salah….
To ZongTwi
I aggre, I agree with you mate.
waja crash test
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/newsarticle.html?&a…
pycazu said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:19 am
fine, zongtwi i quite agreed to most of the argument u threw out, but it’s too harsh though. Pls correct your words that Mahaleel was the management in P1 instead of TM, he was the one making decision for P1 and supported by TM instead.
————————————————————–
TM = Tengku Mahaleel. That's what people call him at Proton and Lotus
TM is tengku mahaleel, not Tun Mahathir.
to zongtwi, i totally agree with u. Proton has nothing to show for the last 7-8 yrs. While Waja and Perdana V6 is quite acceptable, they still have problems. major ones, i would say. remember when proton offered free 3 mths service for WAJA? that was because they forgot to insert a washer into the gearbox. one single washer.
gen-2? judge it urself.
i was an engineer(not PROTON) who were involved in the development of gen-2,savvy and SRM. i can only say that they really really did not know how to manage properly. For example, the project leader for SRM changed for at least 2 times, i think. Correct me if i'm wrong. First it was LOTUS, then PROTON, then i dunno who. Seems like theres to end to selecting who is the best manager for the project. no wonder the car is still in development.
i heard this from my friends, both in Perodua n Proton.
"Perodua only sell cars when they have tested and improved while it is still in the development process."
"Proton only improve their cars when they receive complaints from at least 100 customers!!"
Zongtwi hit the nail squarely on the head. What use is vision if it is not attainable. Strategy is 90% execution. If a strategy cannot be executed either because of resources etc, it was bad strategy to begin with.
Before we even look at the quetion posed by the letter, we should first try to ask the 2 TMs back…who the heck pays E 70 million (about RM370 million) and agrees to assume responsibility for E 232 million for a company that is bankrupt. In essence, the total cost is E 302 million for a company that is bankrupt. MV Agusta was for a lack of better word, insolvent at time of purchase. That is a lot of money to pay for a shell with a semi famous name. As an ex investment banker, my advise would have been to wait until it goes under properly and cherry pick the assets you want.
Clearly the acquisition of MV Agusta was not thought out properly by previous management as not only does it have all that debt hanging over its head, it had gone deeper into the red and had to borrow from the parent.
As for MV Agusta having assets, I am not too sure about that. With all the debts hanging over them, there is a possibility that these would have been pledged. It probably proved too much of a distraction that the new management felt that it was just not worth it.
One big fact that we have to face is that Proton is a car company. It already owns Lotus, which still is not that profitable after so many year under TM. The acquisition of MV Agusta is a joke…just because TM likes bikes why must he subject the shareholders to grief as well. There is just no way for Proton to capitalise on MV Agusta so called design capabilities, especially if you buy it and not put in the infrastructure to capitalise on these so called strengths. All the justifications given by TM exist only in his head.
Proton is first and foremost a car company. The name of the game is volume. Unfortunately after 8 years at the helm, TM has done nothing that would assist the company meet the volume challenge. Exports were sporadic at best and not at sustainable volumes except for a few markets. He missed the boat with China and India. The cars he built (Gen2 and Savvy) do not have mass appeal unlike those built by his predecessor (the Waja and Wira). Lotus has not introduce anything new during hi tenure. As for nepotism, I am sure there a few stories there as well.
to zongtwi
so u said people told u so?..then if people said that tm had elephants in his office,u say its true la…tm had gold plated septic tank…bla bla bla..mindless proton bashers…mv has just been bought for 15 months…then got boardroom tussle..so when can setup for tech transfer…tun said that mv debt do not have to paid for 3years..why the hell did azlan'proton chairman sold it'?might as well get all their knowledge first..unless their is money to be made by???????…tun n tm just want the board to answer to the rakyat..but not to stupid malaysian who like a speedjunkie lol
Shaymen;
With all due respect to the 2 TMs, although the final debt payment is due in a few years time…you still need to service it as you go along. There is also the issue of working capital and capex. These have resulted in the provisions announced. Both MV Agusta and Lotus, if you read all the analyst reports, are a drain on Proton. At least, in the case of Lotus, there are benefits to be derived. Perhaps MV Agusta was a real dud and should be cut off before it drags the whole company down.
The money spent on the fanciful projects of the 2 TMs (Tun does have a track record of fanciful projects…Linear City lah, Bakun lah) would probably have been better off used to develop an MPV, which Proton clearly lack in its product offering at the moment. That is about RM500 million that could have been put to better use rather than fatten up some Italian who could not even get his fellow Italians to help him out.
tak pa…i think malaysians will be satisfied will impoting cars and selling..no need expertise at all…let rebadge anyting we can..the new vision for malaysia…we sell sayur to japan..they sell everything else to us..with no tax..lets all be petani n operator pengeluaran…no more asking the our children to be engineers etc2.technology is not needed here…malaysian dont have to be tokeh anymore…we dont need to own anything anymore ..just makan gaji from foreigner so that our cash flow will go to their country
he is a leader… man with a vision.
However to achieve a vision he need support from the ppl. Some sort of democratic process. The way that he put his weight on the middle mgt and the board means that he do not win 'real' support. So he end up losing what he dreamt of. He is a general without follower. The task of imposing a culture in the comp. with the size of Proton is mighty difficult. His pet the R&D dept. do show some sign of inventiveness etc. but production don't like them. By not having support of the liutenants he just cannot cut it.
May be ppl want a reliable and cheap bland cars. It is ok for 5 yrs or so, but without identity it will just dies of. Building the expertise to create an identity means a lot to survival of a brand.
I really dislike a CEO that just want to save themselves. As long as I got paid then Proton will not have losses. Well the contract say 5 yrs… so his vision will only be for 5 yrs. ( 2 facelift?).
For me,TM have a huge planning on MV but his mission not done…but will more critical if proton let go Lotus also…for new proton management…pls learn from the past…looks like they don't want this two "TM" involve anything in Proton now.Don't forget…Tun is a Proton 'penasihat'..But overall..biasalah…politic mix business….the results is like this maaa….
well….im kinda agreed with muthu..let the boardroom answer tun and tm question…why did proton chairman waste 70million euro for nothin?at least learn la try to make a heli or a motorbike from them….proton bought that mv bcos want to learn the tech that mv has but that penguin sold it for 1euro..so sad.
Assimo;
You are right. Politicians and business do not mix well in the long run. Sure, in the short run, mixing the two brings some results but in the long run you get less accountability and decisions made not base on commercial aspects.
Dr M, as adviser has no real locus standi as an officer of the company (check up our Company Law), and yet the letter points out that he was one of the decision maker with regard to the MV Agusta acquisition. If anything, this open letter shows how bad the corp governance was at Proton under TM.
On your comment about planning, well you know what they say. Anyone can plan but only few can execute. If you can only plan but not good enough to execute and, more importantly, get results, you're not a good leader.
On Biggie's point about vision, I think most of us have vision. Some of us just dream rather than have vision In TM's case it was just a daydream that turned into a nightmare for Proton.
The Chinese saying that wealth last for three generations seem apt here. The first two generation (the joint management and the early Malaysian management) help Proton grow abd build up its cash. Come the third generation (TM), squanders all the cash. Also need to note that the money making products for Proton over last 5 years have all been cars conceptualised and designed under previous management. So let us think back…what exactly did TM did that was positive for Proton during his 8 years there.
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 11:09 am
to zongtwi
so u said people told u so?..then if people said that tm had elephants in his office,u say its true la…tm had gold plated septic tank…bla bla bla..mindless proton bashers…
————————————————————
Well, if everyone I know who's working in Proton tells me something, it's hard not to believe, isn't it? If it's not true, then they must have hated TM real bad to come up with those kind of stories. I wonder why. (Note that sarcastic tone there) Btw, I'm not bashing Proton, I'm bashing TM. Now he's gone, I honestly think Proton is better off. Well, first I'm a stupid motherfsssscker, then a stupid rakyat. Call me what you want mate. I couldn't care less. Adios!
Well, why on earth did they buy M V Agusta????
For me, Proton has the know-how to build a car but it only need to watch out for the quality of parts and the finish product. Time and time again its the fault of our vendors
they bought agusta to steal the technology that agusta have la mate…our vendors just want to make money,thats why tm threw all of them out by gettin the tuv to inspect all proton cars but instead he himself being throw away by khairy jamaludin..pitty that tiger!
go get em(penguin) tiger!!!!!
Let's hear both side of the story, P1 vs TM & TM. No doubt a very expensive experience..
yeah… ur right la waimak…lets hear them talk laa…
Let the new management decide the fate of Proton.. I hope Proton will come up with new models that is more practical for the majority of the masses. The current new models like Gen 2 & Savvy is percieved as too sporty for some. It has good handling, no doubt, but I guest most Malaysian drivers prefers practicality instead of sportiness from their car.
In the first place, why should Tengku Mahaleel buy a sinking company which is IRRELEVANT in terms of engineering expertise ? Of course the commonalities are wheels, shock absorbers,head lights, disc brakes and calipers, engine ,fuel tank etc. *sarcastic*. But a car is a car, not a motorbike.
As what was mentioned by him during the purchase of that company, it was just for the sake of having a "premium brand" name on their line up. The idea is to make a car that people can drive safely, but not in the stage to drive in luxury. Power window problems, hard plastics problem can't be fixed and yet want to make a premium brand. The vision is there but an unrealistic one in the current situation. Look at Toyota, they only made their successful premium brand, Lexus, about 20 years ago while the company has been there for more than half a century.
Quoted :
"Losing automotive companies like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and many others have been bought by stronger companies and have been turned around. But the prices reflect the assets and the brand. As far as we know they were not sold for one Euro."
Read : Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin etc… are they motorbike companies in the 1st place ? Are they owned by a struggling car company or a successful car company ?
oiii jolly roger….when tm started work at proton,proton has bout 800million cash and shah alam plant,now proton hav tanjung malim,shah alam,lotus and agusta(sold for stupidly 1euro) and still hav cash money 2.6BILLION…thats what his been doin for the past 8years….open ur eyes la weii…
Shaymen;
I have disagree that the Board have to answer to the 2 TMs. Who the heck are they that the Board need to answer them. The Board will have to answer to the shareholders and the exchange (Bursa) if queried by Bursa. As far as the 2 TMs are concerned, they do not have any legal standing to demand anything. If anything, it is they who have to answer for the actions taken in the past.
This action of the letter and the sniping over the last few months show the spiteful nature and "no class" attitude of the 2 TMs despite being given face, by announcing that he was retiring than being sacked and a police report filed (like one did against Tajuddin Ramli). Rather than let the new management try to get on with the job of rebuilding Proton, they have been constantly making trouble for the new management. It is a clear indication of selfishness on their part. It is extremely hard to symphatise with anyone like this.
azlan the penguin…hahahhahahahah…so right shaymen..
stevarac said,
January 4, 2006 @ 8:45 pm
It is fortunate that TM & TM is bringing up this issue through the mass media.
SOMEONE has got to take the heat.
Proton has to respond in public interest ( both Malaysian & stakeholders ).
The guilty party has to take the fall. AND THAT IS THE BOTTOMLINE.
WTF – 70 mil euro down the drain ( RM 84K/day ).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Its probably being considered (or reconsidered as the case may be – I have a feeling that as a result of the letter, you may see a retort, given the personality that Azlan is) but unlikely TM (the senior) will get into trouble. He has too much political clout despite no longer being in Government. If anything, TM (the junior) will probably get some heat heaped on him.
The problem is, there is need to ascertain if any laws (as opposed to private rights) have been breached. If it is mere private rights, it is the shareholders who must sue the Board to take civil action against management. If a criminal act was done, that is a different story.
Let the new management decide the fate of Proton.. I hope Proton will come up with new models that is more practical for the majority of the masses. The current new models like Gen 2 & Savvy is percieved as too sporty for some. It has good handling, no doubt, but I guest most Malaysian drivers prefers practicality instead of sportiness from their car.
if u let the new management decide the fate of proton,u will never see proton in 5years time la mate…they will sell all of what proton have,by then we will not have our tiger anymore..most malaysian prefers practicality bcos they dont have money..they been fooled by ppl like khairy jamaludin and rafidah…petrol nak naik 20sen pun takpe..huhuhuhuhu.
Shaymen;
With all due respect my eyes are wide open. Pls note that the cash was built up from the success of products developed before his time. TM himself have come up with duds so far. As for the cash, pls differentiate between cash and free cash. Always judge the cash position of a capex intensive compan by their free cash, and I don't think Proton has RM 2 b in free cash right now. Therefore, if Proton had RM800 m (that real cash not free cash) when he started, they have less than that now (go check the accounts, I think its free cash is only abt RM 600 million now). Takes some skill to blow that amount of money.
As for the Tjg Malim plant…why on earth would you add capacity when your current capacity is not fully utilised. Sure its nice to have a big plant to show to your golfing buddies and the politicians, but if the capacity utilisation of the whole company drops to half (industry standard is abt 70-75%), I would say its not a well thought out plan. Given that the Tjg Malim plant produces the Gen2 and Savvy, they have a long way to go before they can optimise utilisation. On top of that, TM went and bought a facility in Indonesia and added to the capacity. What the heck for if you are not producing a million cars a year.
when proton bought MV, i really thought it was a brilliant move. By combining a very good car company (LOTUS) and MV, they have all the ingrediants for success. However, i felt there was too little were done after the acquisition ( have anybody heard what proton have in mind during that period?).. there were no effective strategy on how to turn mv around. I strongly believe proton had made the wrong move by selling MV. Technology can be shared ( to some extent).. MV produces high capacity engines (500-1000cc or more). in terms of parts, they can share and commonise loads of parts (i.e piston, piston rings, or even screws!!). Proton do not only loss their money, they lost their integrity and credibility as a "world class manufacturer"
Outpoken;
Just so you know…again this can be found from the announcements…MV Agusta did not have any real technology. Its engines were bought from the Japanese, hence why Proton had to pay the Japs for the engines purchased by MV Agusta. Same goes with Lotus, they do not have their own wngines as far as I can recall. If I am not mstaken, the newer Exige utilise the Nissan engine. My own take is that TM hoodwinked the Board on the real benefits of acquiring MV Agusta. Clearly, after one year, none of it has materialised or even show signs of materialising.
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 12:50 pm
Rather than let the new management try to get on with the job of rebuilding Proton, they have been constantly making trouble for the new management. It is a clear indication of selfishness on their part. It is extremely hard to symphatise with anyone like this.
do you know that proton edar had loss million of rm in its proton 20years promo???in mahaleels time,there is no such stupid promo….what do the new management has done to build up proton???sellin agusta?i also can do that…its not that hard to sell things out,its hard to build a thing that u dont hav…y dont u go and ask kj and pak lah whats next?wanna sell petronas?huhuhuhuhu.why dont just sell our country to singapore…
what i hav learn about proton quality……. all the vendors create this problem……the vendors produce product which is low quality……. but goverment want to help local SMIs or bussinessmen to become player in automative or sparepart market….. but in their mind always thinking how to maximise profit and minimise expenses, so the result BAD quality product….. at the N of the day it effect PROTON goodwill…….
Proton should recruit the stylist from mv agusta, not acquring the company for sake of getting the design powerhouse. (not only acquiring the assets but mounting debts as well). Its a bad move previously. Who made such a move previously n drag proton into more trouble should be taken legal action for management wrongdoings n not left as a free man.
Now this 'free man' with his 'old' man try to bark into a blank wall while the new man painfully try to clean all the shits they left behind.
anon said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:46 am
i heard this from my friends, both in Perodua n Proton.
“Perodua only sell cars when they have tested and improved while it is still in the development process.â€
“Proton only improve their cars when they receive complaints from at least 100 customers!!â€
perodua mana ada teknologi beb….diaorang kan cut n paste ajer.semua model dari daihatsu dan toyota jer la..daihatsu kan toyota dah makan,dan kau pun tahu toyota ni world no1 carmaker…toyota dah lama buat kereta,dia dah tau mcm2 penyakit,kita baru jer dalam bidang ni..dia boleh achieve mcm tu sebab rakyat si cilaka jepun ni rajin..bukan mcm org malaysia,main skim cepat kaya jer tau…pandai komplen jer,org suruh buat dia tak tau buat…budus.
Shaymen;
You cannot compare what new mgt has done in last few months with what TM has FAILED to do in last 8 years. The new mgt is cleaning up the 8 years of mess.
The result of the 20 yrs promo is reduced margin but it did not result in a direct loss on a per car basis. True, overall Edar may have had to book a loss for the one month of sales but, again if you had attended the analyst briefing, it was necessary to reduce stocks. Had it not been done, there would have to be a depreciation charge of about 20% of the value of the stocks anyway. I seriously suggest you consult a person with some financial knowledge before making suck diatribes.
As for MV Agusta…it is not just selling the entity. It is abt not having to commit further cash and have chance to recoup loans extended to it by TM.
Oh yes, I forgot…apparently TM did something in his 8 years there. He put his son to be in charge of the Motorsports Division and well, that is about it.
As for there not being any "stupid promos" in the past, its because TM let the stock built up. Sometimes he would send the old stock abroad to the "pipeline" and book it as sales. That is bad revenue recognition if there was ever one.
all the above questions need to be answer by Proton…
what if actually there are some other companies willing to pay higher …?
why they need to do it in haste and end up gaining rm4.50 out of the deal?
it is just improper to get turn around the company within a year …
but after all….Proton did own the 2 factory and stock of motorcyle…How much the factories value…and how much the stocks value..?
it is only appropriate for Proton to answer unless they refused to look stupid out of this debate.
drmuzi
to jolly roger.. although you can see any real lotus engines in the exige or elise, they do have the tech to develop engine.. do some research and you will find that porshe paid royalty to lotus for its engine. as for MV, they do design their own engine
<a href="http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:7_tM8yswoUcJ <a href="http://:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FWH/is_n3_v109/ai_19600725+porsche+lotus+engine&hl=en">Link” target=”_blank”>:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FWH/is_n3_v109/ai_19600725+porsche+lotus+engine&hl=en">Link
Dr Muzi;
Seriously, would you pay to assume millions of Euro in debt. I am sure there were other proposals but the issue is, do these other proposals fit in with Proton's plans and was it favoured by the creditors of MV Agusta. I was made to understand that the secured creditors of MV Agusta has a lot of say and that the shareholders' agreement between Proton and the other shareholders of MV Agusta entered into by TM when Proton bought into MV Agusta, was not to Proton's favour. Given all these restrictions as to what you can do with the company and the debts, would anyone want to buy it for more that a token sum?
Outspoken;
Yes Lotus does have the technical capability to develop new engines but the fact of the matter is that they neither have the cash nor manufacturing capacity, apart from small runs. The article that was hotlinked is from 1997 and is by all accounts a promo article, so lets not put too much credibility on it. As it stands, the Exige uses a Toyota engine. Not too sure what the new Lotus that will be launched at the Geneva Motor Show will have under its bonnet (have been told it would be a Nissan sourced engine), but it is not a Lotus developed engine. Lotus' main selling points are its styling capabilities and ride&handling tuning. Not engines. BTW this new car is extremely pleasing to the eye….
I honestly hope that Lotus would remain within the company's stable for the foreseeable future. I also hope that Proton would put in a Malaysian to run Lotus as clearly the ppl they have running it on the ground right now have not done anything.
As for MV Agusta. You are right to suggest that they can develop their own engines but the fact of the matter is that money was spent to purchase engines and engine parts of its behalf. Perhaps it has more to do with cost effectiveness rather than technical merits I dunno.
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
As for the Tjg Malim plant…why on earth would you add capacity when your current capacity is not fully utilised.
what product success bfor his time?that saga?huh…that money is money from the loan the gov give to proton laa…proton really hav 2.6billioncash money laa..that 2.6billion is after paying all tanjung malims debt u know….go and check with bank negara la jolly..(if its not there,maybe someone from the new management hav taken it la)
waahh so cerdik la u jolly….have u been to shah alam?have u been to tanjung malim?cars made in shah alam were made by human while at tanjung malim all cars were made by robohands…yes,they are only using 2 or 3 lines for production,but thats why vw wants to share the plant with them..proton let them use their plant,they share their nazis technology with proton..thats what tm had plan to do..not to sell it to vw like the new management has wanted 2do…
well…jully roger u said that u were made to understand so and so…
it could be just hearsay…
that is Proton need to response…..
to clarify..
As would i bought the MV AGUSTA…well tun had give an example, u just need to read his explanation morecareful:
"Losing automotive companies like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Skoda, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and many others have been bought by stronger companies and have been turned around. But the prices reflect the assets and the brand"
Shaymen;
You clearly did not read what I said. The products developed before his time would include all cars up to Waja and the CamPro engine. These were developed well before he joined as Head of Strategy one year before he got promoted to CEO. His own babies have been the Gen2 and Savvy…good cars but poor sellers as it did not meet market wants. He also missed the boat for MPVs and SUVs, 2 of the fastest growing segments in the domestic market.
As for the cash…I do hope you never have to sit for a CA examination. Learn to calculate free cash. Cash is not king if it is pledged. I urge you to read the Q2 results, particularly notes 20 and 26. Once you have, perhaps you will begin to understand why this RM 2 b in cash is actually only RM975 million. Given that, as the Edge ointed out, Proton eats up RM130 million in cash each month, it does not sound like a lot does it.
Dr Muzi;
The term "I was made to undestand" is not a connotation of hearsay, lets just leave it at that. Suffice to say, the price anyone would pay for MV Agusta now reflects the value of the company as perceived by the buyer. Sure it would have been easier to just keep on holding the company and pump in more cash to fatten up the Italians at the expense of Malaysians, but business involves a lot of hard choices. Given that the share price of Proton improved upon announcement of the sale has got to mean a few other informed investors agree with this assessment.
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
The result of the 20 yrs promo is reduced margin but it did not result in a direct loss on a per car basis. True, overall Edar may have had to book a loss for the one month of sales but, again if you had attended the analyst briefing, it was necessary to reduce stocks. Had it not been done, there would have to be a depreciation charge of about 20% of the value of the stocks anyway. I seriously suggest you consult a person with some financial knowledge before making suck diatribes.
oii kawanku jolly….edar make that promo started sep till nov only laaa..in dec they pull the handbrake bcos of what?bcos they had loss oready maa..ppl clear stock in dec laa…u go and see all edar showroom now..all free stock,why?bcos of that stupid promo laaa…huhuhuhu.they hav to give discount in jan anyway to clear the 05 stock…might just make the promo in dec and jan….stupid edar management!
Clearly some of us have rose tinted glasses on at the moment. Despite being given the suggestion to look beyond the cash hype and focus on free cash, look beyond the new plant hype and focus on capacity utilisation, look beyond loss margins and focus on stock clearance and avoidance of depreciation charge on stocks, there is still insistance that TM did nothing wrong in his 8 years and new management has got it all wrong in its 6 or 7 months there.
It is time we look beyond the hype and focus on the numbers and KPIs. TM has had his chance and he did a few thing well enough. However, Proton is operating in an environment that needs more than just dreamers and so called visionaries. It needs ppl that can execute and deliver. Syed Zainal is new and will probably make mistakes along the way but I doubt that he would be any worse off than the past few CEOs at Proton. He also seems to be less brash and "removed" compared to his predecessor, more in tune with operations etc. He also appears to be qualified in that he is an engineer unlike TM who has a degree in history (the engineering doctorate is honorary only, so it does not count).
I for one am not interested in the past but more in what the future holds for Proton. Hopefully once this financial year ends, Proton will be able to map out its plans going forward and implement them. As I have said before, plans are meaningless, what matters is execution. Until then, the jury is still out on current mgt.
outspoken said,
January 4, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
to jolly roger.. although you can see any real lotus engines in the exige or elise, they do have the tech to develop engine.. do some research and you will find that porshe paid royalty to lotus for its engine. as for MV, they do design their own engine
i definitely agree with this outspoken person….dont u think that jolly is a freak?he really thinks he's a genius…pakar economoney la katakan.i believe he knows everythin laa…ooiii jolly,why did kj and paklah sell our telekom malaysia to singapore huh?why did kj and paklah sell mas to qantas huh?who is rafidah aziz huh?why paklah is so scared of her huh?
Shaymen;
You are entitled to that view of yours and I am sure you have good sources, as we all do here. However, before you proclaim to be a know it all when it comes to Proton, how do you explain for your clear inability to differentiate cash and free cash and what actually matters. Apart from that, despie rebuking Proton for the 20 yrs sale you still have yet to provide some alternatives to the predicament that Edar was in – sell at lower margin or suffer depreciation chrage while still keeping stocks. What would you have done? Yes the promo was until Nov but how sure are you that the impact on accounts went beyond 1 month. Again we all have our sources so I will not go deeper on that.
I have said it before and I will say it again. TM did not do much in his 8 years at Proton. Had he done so, Proton would now have a full product line (MPVs and SUVs) and would have turned around Lotus, which is still bleeding at the moment. Proton would also now be in China, India and in great numbers across ASEAN. The sad fact of the matter is that all these have not happen and as CEO, he has to take responsibility. The buck stops there.
from jolly-Just so you know…again this can be found from the announcements…MV Agusta did not have any real technology. Its engines were bought from the Japanese, hence why Proton had to pay the Japs for the engines purchased by MV Agusta. Same goes with Lotus, they do not have their own wngines as far as I can recall. If I am not mstaken, the newer Exige utilise the Nissan engine. My own take is that TM hoodwinked the Board on the real benefits of acquiring MV Agusta. Clearly, after one year, none of it has materialised or even show signs of materialising.
see clearly this so called economist dont know whats he's talking…nissan engine..LOL….MV dont have technology..hahahahha..MV soo stupid that they can design and built helicopters..and produce exotic bikes deemed one of the best in the world..not to mention small engine too…azlan said it's not core biz for proton into bikes..then we have only modenas as malaysian small bike..and its a kawasaki rebadge like those naza bikes..that market is untapped yet…i am proud of proton..the only true malaysian car..perodua is owned by japs..51%by daihatsu and mitsui corp..only 49% by malaysia..and that what malaysian proud..when r u gonna learn to build and engineer something on our own like this huh?proton bashers?do u think america is so great b'cos they just essembly things from other countries and rebadge?
Shaymen;
I have never claimed to be anything other than an ex investment banker. I have never said I was an expert in economics, law or anyhing. If you think I am a freak for being able to read reports and interpret their impact, so be it. I suppose its better than mouthing about some fantasy numbers without understanding them. If my comments have made yours to appear less credible and intelligent, pls have my apologies. It was not my attention to make your comments appear incoherent, ill-informed and somewhat rave-like. In my defence I would have to say you did that to yourself, and you did a good job I would say.
I am sorry that I cannot answer abt Telekom as my coverage is only for manufacturing sector not services. However I am sure, given the chance, you would enlighten all of us here. After all you seem to have all the answers.
Shaymen;
With regard to Lotus' engines. Read what I said carefully. Lotus can design engines but their own cars are using Toyota' engines. Designing and manufacturing engines are different things.
Shaymen;
I have tried to be civil but alas you have difficulty grasping the concept. Look through the annual reports my fren. I am not talking abt what TM did I am taliking abt his education. He is a history major not an engineer like Syed Zainal. That is why in my opinion SZ would be better for Proton compared to TM. As for him being a rally driver, would that make him a better CEO? If you have to make a comment pls let it be an informed and intelligent comment the next time. Focus less on personal attacks on ore on facts pls.
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
Shaymen;
I have tried to be civil but alas you have difficulty grasping the concept. Look through the annual reports my fren. I am not talking abt what TM did I am taliking abt his education. He is a history major not an engineer like Syed Zainal. That is why in my opinion SZ would be better for Proton compared to TM. As for him being a rally driver, would that make him a better CEO? If you have to make a comment pls let it be an informed and intelligent comment the next time. Focus less on personal attacks on ore on facts pls.
i think its u who is on personal attacks on tm…so what if he is not an engineer?…i dont think the new MAS boss is a pilot but nobody attack him..and by the way..TM did good for a CEO..u just have to have an open mind and not just see a piece of paper someone want u 2 see.
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
Paramsingwalia
Esprit has not been in production for a long time. Again, my comments are about what they can do now. Sure they can design but manufacturing engines is not a core competency for Lotus.
wahhh..looks like u r an ex lotus employes now…i suggest u go to ethel urself to find out more
Paramsingwalia;
Agusta choppers are not part of the MV Agusta group. The Agusta helicopters are part of the Agusta Westland Group (see www.agusta.com). MV Agusta is a different group altogether (see www.mvagusta.it). Sorry mate, you've got it wrong again.
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
Paramsingwalia;
Personal attacks against other posters la. That was what I was refering to As for my comment abt TM’s educational qualification, that is a statement of fact not an attack. My comments abt his failure as CEO is not derived from his eucational background but actual performance over 8 years.
okay..what's is his failures compared to the old EX CEO he replaced?
Paramsingwalia;
Its in Hethel and not Ethel…and yes I have been there a few times, thank you very much. FYI, the man running Lotus right now, a Kim Ogaard Nielsen was put in place by TM, and this guy too did not have any experience from automotive industry previously.
failures of TM…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..see anything?
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:08 pm
Paramsingwalia;
Its in Hethel and not Ethel…and yes I have been there a few times, thank you very much. FYI, the man running Lotus right now, a Kim Ogaard Nielsen was put in place by TM, and this guy too did not have any experience from automotive industry previously.
wahhhh..know sooo much…but still dont know what engine exige uses..LOL
P;
Read my previous post on what I think are his failures. He has not run the company into the ground (although had Proton kept MV Agusta, that could have happen). He missed trends shifting towards ppl movers rather than cars, he missed diesel gaining popularity in Europe, he missed China and India…..so on and so forth.
maybe i should copy u…typing here while browsing the lotus webpage…hahahahahahahahhahahahaha…every knowledge u get from the internet baybe…
P;
I have corrected well before you chipped in. Its a Toyota eng. Your mistake about MV Agusta and Agusta helicopters however, is by far more obvious.
That said, you still miss the point. Lotus does not have their own engines at the moment. BTW I do not proclaim to know "so much" as you put it. These are after all publicly available.
P;
At least I know how to conduct a desktop search using the internet. You should learn it too.
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
P;
Read my previous post on what I think are his failures. He has not run the company into the ground (although had Proton kept MV Agusta, that could have happen). He missed trends shifting towards ppl movers rather than cars, he missed diesel gaining popularity in Europe, he missed China and India…..so on and so forth.
have u got any clue how many ppl movers are registered here last year?..not worth the developtment…
he misses china…u miss one chapter from here or ur other internet sources…china dont want us to get there..they r smarter than us not to open their market so that their car manufacturerer will survived..
surf more man..LOL
lotus sure do not have engine right now…u want proton to developed their engines or our campro first?
to develope engines will cost millions..that's why they develope campro first..for mass pro..bigger market than sport engine
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
I for one am not interested in the past but more in what the future holds for Proton. Hopefully once this financial year ends, Proton will be able to map out its plans going forward and implement them. As I have said before, plans are meaningless, what matters is execution. Until then, the jury is still out on current mgt.
im sure by the year ends proton will end up loosing if they still kept doin promo like the p20years and their chairman keep selling what proton have..:)
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:20 pm
do i know u from somewhere???u sound like dato maruan the gay guy…
oii jolly bean…
just answer this u investment banker..why the hell did u think that selling MV is good b4 tech transfer whereelse tun said that MV debt dont have to pay untill 3 years time??????????????????????????
we paid already what…use it la..then u said new management good..how's that?
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:20 pm
do i know u from somewhere???u sound like dato maruan the gay guy…
LOL…i think that jolly guy is the gay one…been to lotus but dont know what engine in exige…i bet his boyfriend changed his car tyre for him
shaymen…
do u think we should sell MV like the jolly bean said….so called investment banker for temasek i presumed
jolly…syed zainal knows nothin laa..he did nothin while in perodua…what is his achievement so far?ppl buy perodua bcos they dont have money to buy proton or a better car..syed zainal doesnt know what to do with proton.he doesnt have an idea to move proton..
he's only following penguin's ordesr…spend all the money in proton..then ask the jolly bean the investment banker to sell their shares to temasek and vw..
paramsingwalia,
i think jolly bean is an agent for singapore la…he tried to change all our stupid malaysian mindset to sell everything to singapore…thats why he's here in this forum..even sepang wanna sell to singapore…crazy!….eyy,beware..he's an ex investment banker who goes bankcrupt….thats why he didnt work no more.
paramsingwalia,
are you sure ur not dato maruan the gay guy?…..wait a minutes,i know u….you are khairy jamaludin huh?the most powerfull man in malaysia…
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:47 pm
paramsingwalia,
i think jolly bean is an agent for singapore la…he tried to change all our stupid malaysian mindset to sell everything to singapore…thats why he’s here in this forum..even sepang wanna sell to singapore…crazy!….eyy,beware..he’s an ex investment banker who goes bankcrupt….thats why he didnt work no more.
hahhaahhahaahha….that jolly bean and his ideas..wanna make money out of proton only…asked him,why does temasek bought proton shares recently if it's as bad as he'economist cum investment banker'say its so bad…
he never answered…jolly bean.
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
paramsingwalia,
are you sure ur not dato maruan the gay guy?…..wait a minutes,i know u….you are khairy jamaludin huh?the most powerfull man in malaysia…
or the quiet singaporean?
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
paramsingwalia,
are you sure ur not dato maruan the gay guy?…..wait a minutes,i know u….you are khairy jamaludin huh?the most powerfull man in malaysia…
fuuyooo..so brave u shaymen..nanti i.s.a….better stop dude..maybe we talk when im the youngest pm ever..aged 13..huhuuuhuhuhuhuhuh
aiyo param….im not talking like that theresa kok laaa…im not a racist.im not a fighter,im a lover…i love my country.
aiseh,,shaymen..ur a lover kaaa????sonds like PD..P diddy lyrics only…hehehehehehehe…anyway to quote mr noh…tak suka balik la…then i say..dont like proton..dont buy la…naik t bikes pun ok.
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
aiyo param….im not talking like that theresa kok laaa…im not a racist.im not a fighter,im a lover…i love my country.
u love ur country then stop people like jolly bean from trying to sell our assets to temasek n co la…anyway where's jolly bean???surfing for info or reading the stock exchange?
param…
i miss out what ur talking with jolly earlier…no wonder he sounds like pst(profesor serba tau)…hmmm,now that u know he's been copying from the internet,he's tryin to be quiet huh…i told someone bfor that he's a freak..
anyway…i still thinks that sellin agusta is a bad idea..we should hav done somethin with it rather than sellin it for 1euro..why dont propose to me earlier..i would like to buy it.make my own bike and compete with modenas..ppl would say that its crazy to buy a company with lots of debt,my say..if that company is not in trouble,they woudnt sell it at the first place…we should buy it and try to turn it around laaa….thats the risk we have to take in business…what do u think?
Shaymen and Paramsingwalia;
You guys clearly believe in your own hype.
And since when did Dr M not spoken with a forked-tongue. If you feel it was a bad move to sell of MV Agusta, so be it. The investors clearly do not think so. As for being gay, sorry to disappoint you if you had such fantasies to begin with. But it just shows the type of person both of you are, when you have nothing positive nor intelligent to say, always opt for personal attacks and homophobic diatribes. Hopefully both of you would wise up and post more informed comments in the future rather than debase this blog.
My comments on ppl movers stand. MPVs are the fastest growing segment as per MAA figures and Proton missed the boat. Naza built up their cash hoard due to their success in rebadging and selling their MPVs. He missed China because he made a mistake with regard to the partner. He missed India because he wanted to send Wiras rather than Iswaras as the market there had demanded. He missed the boat with regard to the vendors because he failed to get them to sign an important pice of agreement that would have allowed Porotn to penalise non-performance.
With regard to Lotus, P, you echo my point. They do not have an engine at the moment full stop. Having a capability and proving that capability are two different things. Given the happenings with MV Agusta, I am sure the new management will now focus on reviving Lotus – something that TM has failed miserably to do during his 8 "glory filled" years at Proton.
As for engines, P, you are absolutely right. Proton did develop an engine for the mass market first. However, there are gaps in the lower cc segment hence it had to buy from Renault for its Savvy. To this day, despite te trend heaing towards smaller enines, Proton does not have its own programme for small engines (less than 1.3) nor diesels. I had never said Lotus should develop their engines, I was merely retoring to the comment that Lotus has its own engines which is not true.
I stand by my comments on MV Agusta. It was a bad investment to begin with, particularly when the assets of the company could have been bought for a song by just waiting for MV Agusta to go under completely (it was under the Italian version of sec 176 when Proton bought it for E 70 million). A little known fact was that MV Agusta has never been profitable since the owners broke off from Ducati. Also little known was that it was hawked off to Piaggio ( a big motorbike company in Itay) that backed out of the deal after seeing the mess it was in. Would it also surprise you if I told you that the bank that held the shares of the owner as a pledge had earlier tried to sell off a controlling stake in MV Agusta for a mere E 10 million a year earlier. I would be concern that a company nearing bankruptcy can have its value jump 7 fold ina year.
The decision to sell it off ws understandable given the debt and cash burn rate. Given that MV Agusta eats up Proton's cash resources (RM500 m for a year thus far), Lotus' cash needs and Proton's own, how long would the free cash (not cash) pile that Proton have last.
MV Agusta's assets? What assets? Buildings and brands that are pledged to creditors? Stocks that nobody wants to buy? Machinery and equipment that are so specialised that you will need to sell it of as scrap to get back any value? C'mon guys…be a bit more analytical lah.
My comments on the difference between MV Agusta and AgustaWestland still remains a balck mark on P's credibility. Sure, he will go on and on like a broken record on my mistake betweeh a Toyota and Nissan engine…but hey, I am not an engineer not mat kereta. My concern is on the company. As for Shaymen, clearly he needs to read the accounts properly…he has yet to address his clear lack of understanding as to Proton's cash position. Even after pointing out the exact number of the notes to the accounts to him, he has yet to admit he made a mistake with his numbers.
As for me being to Lotus and not knowing the engine…well, firstly I have corrected it. Secondly, I am not an engineer and I don't really care abt technical stuff. My main concern is making money or stopping the bleeding. The whole point of the sale is to stop the bleeding. What would you have suggested? Take Dr M's word and leave it like that?
As for Syed Zainal, he may or may not be what you said. I would give him a chance. After all TM was given 8 years to show what he cannot do.
Btw, you're right I don't change my own tires since I don't drive but get driven. If any of you aspire to be driven, try to do your homework and pay attention to the numbers. At the very least, read properly and do your research.
Regards
S and P;
I have to add that I am concerned that Malaysians such as yourself (if that is what you are) can be so homophobic and xenophobic. You and a certain previous Malaysian politician have a lot in common I see.
As for selling MV Agusta for E 1, would you be able to assume the remainder of the debt and other liabilities as well? Do you think that the creditors would accept you to "step in". C'mon, use your grey cells a bit la.
yes..these malaysian talk like we can go and buy honda bmw merc etc2…who wanna sell one…and to get technology u must buy these troubled companies and turn it around..get their tech..we r left behind already..and to catch up quickly is by tech transfer…
i dont understand malaysians..when air asia bought a bangkrupt airlines and turn it around,no noise even the airplanes r buruk n service not first class..why dont they yelll..why buy bangkrupt airline?go buy qantas or british airways or singapore airlines la…who wanna sell one…?????????stupid
better ask investment banker la..
S and P;
I would urge you to think before you post. If anyone had done the country harm, it was to throw away money to save an Italian company that had no real strategic value to Proton. Some would say ppl like this had committed economic treason. I probably would not go that far (I think the 2 TMs were just inept) but there are those that would go so far as filing criminal charges against at least one of the TM.
every post there R persons 2 pretend 2 KNOW EVERYTHING
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:16 pm
u love ur country then stop people like jolly bean from trying to sell our assets to temasek n co la…anyway where’s jolly bean???surfing for info or reading the stock exchange?
ello brader
Reading stock market? R u nut……. stock market is a place 2 trade share not 2 read………
seems like nobody remembered the aggrement between p1 and p2 that p1 could not venture into small cars so to protect p2…that why develop campro 1.3 onwards and not stupid 3 pistons engine 660cc
P;
I have been asking this since this morning and no one has answered me yet. Buy MV Agusta for its technology….what technology? Is is something that Proton can directly use? Is it something that can be used within the next few years at resonable costs? Get your facts first. You have sunk so low that now you have to resort to cheap shots. Haiya. You need help la fren.
know everything…been everywhere..blablablabla..macam2 ada…
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:43 pm
P;
I have been asking this since this morning and no one has answered me yet. Buy MV Agusta for its technology….what technology? Is is something that Proton can directly use? Is it something that can be used within the next few years at resonable costs? Get your facts first. You have sunk so low that now you have to resort to cheap shots. Haiya. You need help la fren.
maybe nobody want to answer u la buddy..i think someone answer it already..but deleted
u said the proton management dont have to answer to those 2 and the board..so should WE answer ur question?
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:41 pm
seems like nobody remembered the aggrement between p1 and p2 that p1 could not venture into small cars so to protect p2…that why develop campro 1.3 onwards and not stupid 3 pistons engine 660cc
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P;
Sorry to disapoint you again and again, but there is no such agreement hence why Perodua is now in the 1.3 segment (that Proton has traditionally dominated with the Iswara) with its MyVi. Kalau ada agreement macam mana Perdocua can sell MyVi and Proton is now in the 1.2 segment with its Savvy. Are you suggesting that Perodua broke that agreement. You really need to exercise that analytical ability of yours.
In my opinion, a lot of people are responsible for the losses. Everyone bash our own people, I want to bash the Italians!
The Italian assholes are useless. Especially Claudio Castiglioni. First of all, his business went into deep fscking shit because he and his family couldn't lead and manage the company properly, probably lots of corruption within the family members.
Secondly, why was Claudio Castiglioni still remain as the useless fscking CEO after the acquisition, even after Proton had gain full controlling stake? Since proton is the owner, why proton does not take aggressive restructuring at M.V. Agusta like retrench non performing people in Agusta?
After restructuring Agusta organisation, at least proton can sustain the lower operating cost for 3 years or so. So that there is ample time to tap into the engine designs and hybrid it with proton.
If I were proton owner and a decision maker, I will questions the Italian, sack them for not performing. Change some of the employees benefits and make them resign by themselves.
After tapping into the engine, proton shall keep the hybrid engine design as its own product and dump M.V.Agusta. That's how normally a big company acquire smaller loosing company, drained all their resources and dump it in the end. Proton had played it the wrong way. A lot was not done to its full advantage.
myvi is in the different segment..hence the 660cc 3 cylinder engine…there the golden handshake aggrement..surf again dude
P;
I am refering to S's comment that there was actually something to extract out of MV Agusta. Clearly there is no technological asset that could be etracted. Had there been, TM should have bought or licensed the IP from MV Agusta. It would have been much cheaper for Proton and the bankers of MV Agusta would have agreed to anything that would bring in cash. I hope that answers the question.
proton selling savvy 1.2cc..the tiara is 1.1…cannot go below 1.0cc maaa..aiyoyoyoyo….and to design,produce…making dies jigs for an engine is very expensive for just one platform…tus making savvy more expensive..tm did right with this one
agree with driver..but unfortunately..tm is removed before he can do anything…sad case
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
P;
I am refering to S’s comment that there was actually something to extract out of MV Agusta. Clearly there is no technological asset that could be etracted. Had there been, TM should have bought or licensed the IP from MV Agusta. It would have been much cheaper for Proton and the bankers of MV Agusta would have agreed to anything that would bring in cash. I hope that answers the question.
no tech asset maybe for u…all u see is shiny metals..
hmmm…makes me wonder if theres no agreement like jolly said..then in early 90's iswara will be selling for 20k without the 1.5 tax from govt..and kancil will be 20k also..wonder who will go down first…then proton can come up with 660cc with 15k…hmmm..guess the govt at that time are smart afterall
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
myvi is in the different segment..hence the 660cc 3 cylinder engine…there the golden handshake aggrement..surf again dude
~~~~~~~~~~~
MyVi is a 1.3 litre car. So where is the dividing line as to what Proton can do or could not. If indeed there was an agreement not to compete, it clearly shows TM as being inept in negotiating. He has one less competitor domestically and yet it is that competitor that is now taking away market share.
As for golden handshake agreement, you would have a tough time proving that. However, you seem to know a lot. If you say so I will take your word for it. However, I don't think Perodua rally cares about this so called handshake as they seem to be moving to that segment from the sub 1000 cc segment.
#
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
myvi is in the different segment..hence the 660cc 3 cylinder engine…there the golden handshake aggrement..surf again dude
~~~~~~~~~~~
MyVi is a 1.3 litre car. So where is the dividing line as to what Proton can do or could not. If indeed there was an agreement not to compete, it clearly shows TM as being inept in negotiating. He has one less competitor domestically and yet it is that competitor that is now taking away market share.
As for golden handshake agreement, you would have a tough time proving that. However, you seem to know a lot. If you say so I will take your word for it. However, I don’t think Perodua rally cares about this so called handshake as they seem to be moving to that segment from the sub 1000 cc segment.
what negotiations?its been done before tm'time la…and why so?good what to have p2 that time..creates more jobs..
now p2 moving to bigger engines…must ask kak pidah with her naza citra 18%local content malaysian made car to answer…cos atos kia..etc is wearing national flag now
i would like to give credits to some comments here ( jolly roger,param).. it is more constructive, and based more on facts.. like the debate too.. keep those interesting (and constructive) comments coming!!
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
proton selling savvy 1.2cc..the tiara is 1.1…cannot go below 1.0cc maaa..aiyoyoyoyo….and to design,produce…making dies jigs for an engine is very expensive for just one platform…tus making savvy more expensive..tm did right with this one
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So are you saying that TM made a mistake in this negotiation. If true Proton cannot go down below 1 litre why did he agree to let Perodua go beyond 1 litre with the Savvy and allow an overlap. Even if this agreement is real, and Proton could go all the way to 1 litre, why did it no do so. Why opt for 1.2 l engine from Renault that eats up the margins on the Savvy?
With respect to capex on tools, dies, jigs and moulds. Proton now has the Waja, Gen2, Savvy and soon Satria platforms. 4 platforms and 4 models!!!! Look at other car makers and you'll see they tend to maximise each platform and come up with several models for each platform. Proton missed the boat on commonising its parts etc. The financial condition it is in right now is largely due to this strategic mistake mistake. It is too dependent on capital rather than internal cashflows. Had this been allowed, Proton would not last long under the new competitive environment. Hence why disposing of MV Agusta is a correct decision…return to roots and focus on core business.
stick to core bizz…thats why yamaha..have engines..bikes..piano etc…honda have robots..bikes…cars etc2…mitsu have planes..fridge…etc…
and……..NAZA has everything…even hotel…
check out theur bizz cards
proton can go to one litre but takes longer cos of own design etc…p2 just cut n paste from daihatsu…they r much cheaper…economics of scale la…aiyoooo…they tested the car long before..shaymen already point that out..or would u like the old agreement with mitsu…get there models after 6 years in their market…old design..
this type of thinking makes malaysia the ikea zombie
Outspoken;
Thank you for your kind words. If only some other ppl can discuss issues in a civilised manner and be less prone to personal attacks based on imaginary characteristics and preferences. I for one enjoyed expressing my opinions with ppl on this blog, it is just unfortunate that some ppl have to resort to crude tactics and cheap shots just because their opinions are not the same.
I am going to sign off in a few minutes and head of. I expect there would be those that will try to goad me after this, all I can say is that this is a free country and each is entitled to their own opinion, even when it is clearly an ill informed one and express in a manner that does not conform to accepted norms of civility. To these ppl my advise is to grow up and stop acting like you're still in primary school.
Regards
looks like no malaysian bike for now….just stupid china bikes rebadge and modenas kawasaki…stick to core bizz…
why dont u tell naza that
Perodua should be allowed to build cars with more than 1.3cc and above. Don't allowed proton control perodua on that. Why they can build cars for 1.2 c.c. Is there any such agreement as to how many c.c. perodua can build it's car.
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
looks like no malaysian bike for now….just stupid china bikes rebadge and modenas kawasaki…stick to core bizz…
why dont u tell naza that
Mr Param
NAzA assebles only daaa. Mannufacturing different cost meh. NAaza always assemble onli. P2 got some manufacturing but still rebadge cars. Proton still not walking properly so whay go into bikes. Just make and sell good quality cars at affordable prices first. If not all mkt share will go to Peroduca and other national cars (Naza, Atos and whatever they can think of next) la maca.
My money is on mistake by either DM or Rafidah (tak kisahla who). Why give out national car status so easily meh?
#
wan said,
January 4, 2006 @ 5:38 pm
Perodua should be allowed to build cars with more than 1.3cc and above. Don’t allowed proton control perodua on that. Why they can build cars for 1.2 c.c. Is there any such agreement as to how many c.c. perodua can build it’s car.
they can..but what car..they can only sell rebadge daihatsu's….cut n paste.
woooohoooohooo…balikkkk
when everything goes wrong, TMs are to be blamed. Zongtwi or whatever was trying to mislead the readers by not telling us who TM was.. anyhow, that's not my point.
Since every proton bashers hated proton so much (duhh…), lets see if the new management can fix the problems the TMs created. Ten years from now, if they are still in power, will you love Proton more?
TMahaleel is a man of vision, i respect for what he's done for proton. He might not be Tony Fernandez but you people should at least give him the credit for being ambitious. If he did not make Malaysia known in the eyes of the world, at least he'd made Msia become infamous.
At least he had a vision and he dared to dream. What about other Malaysians? Every Merdeka celebration, we'll see a group of Msians will try to make their names into the Msian Book of Records for having the longest flag, tallest coin towers stuff like that. The most recent one is when a group of adults from god knows where were using RM1 coins that were to be disposed on that day itself to make something out of it. Do you consider them as ambitious as they build the largest stuff in msia or having the most dodol makers gathered at the same time to make a big wok of dodols?
Come on people, I'd rather to be a laughing stock because of the failure of in making the national cars when I tell the foreigners that im a msian than to be respected for having the largest flag.
When we went to the economic downturn, did you thank anyone for saving Msia from becoming Indon? When you bring your friends from other countries to Suria and they become so impress with the towers, who is the person that comes right into ur mind? Taxpayer?
""Until lately Proton has been profitable. It built its facilities in Tanjung Malim for RM1.8 billion with its own money – no borrowings and no injection of capital from the Government.
After building this facility Proton still has more than RM2 billion in cash. ""
so i guess proton isn't using tax payers money after all. so i guess we cant use that old argument any more.
Betul la Glee. Lagi satu conflicting info…kalau betul they have no debt etc. apahal their akauns show over RM 1 b in debt…hehe I took JR's suggestion and tengok the accnts. Bleh dapat from KLSE's website.
Neutral said,
January 4, 2006 @ 5:56 pm
TMahaleel is a man of vision, i respect for what he’s done for proton. He might not be Tony Fernandez but you people should at least give him the credit for being ambitious.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Man of vision…hehe. Is that 2020 vision, short-sightd or got astigmatizm or jusrt blur. Seriously bro, Tony Fernandes achieved what he set out to do but Mahaleel pr bagus result so so. Proton kena ambik Garlos Ghosen baru bagus. Lepas tu semua hilang lemakla.
if tm were no good…why does he been chosen as ceo of the year by i think times mag…i think somethings wrong wit jollys la..like i told u bfor,we just want to steal whatever they know bout bikes,car,planes,etc…so that proton could built its own i dont know,maybe motorbike,heli or somethin…like honda built a robot,mitsu built the zero fighter planes engines and hell man..ur the one should grow up…..i still think that selling agusta is a big mistake..theres a lot we can learn from it..
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
looks like no malaysian bike for now….just stupid china bikes rebadge and modenas kawasaki…stick to core bizz…
why dont u tell naza that
hahahahaha….i'l agree wit u la param…let us all sell vegetables and batik of cos.."kak endon dah pesan,majukan industri batik sampai negeri jepun,tempat lahir kak endon"….
I agree with Jolly that the 2 TM don't have any legal rights to question the current board as to why disposing off MV at Euro1.
But any how, writing off such a big investment should warrant an investigation by SC and Proton should be more transparent about it rather than just give a few line of explanation that it is not a core business.
#
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 6:56 pm
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
looks like no malaysian bike for now….just stupid china bikes rebadge and modenas kawasaki…stick to core bizz…
why dont u tell naza that
hahahahaha….i’l agree wit u la param…let us all sell vegetables and batik of cos..â€kak endon dah pesan,majukan industri batik sampai negeri jepun,tempat lahir kak endonâ€â€¦.
hahhahahahahahaahahahahahahhahahahahaha….shaymen rocks..
towards a farming and batik nation 2020…
driver said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
If I were proton owner and a decision maker, I will questions the Italian, sack them for not performing. Change some of the employees benefits and make them resign by themselves.
i agree wit u la driver….but dont u think that its to much to handle all byhimself..its not tm to be blame,the staff aswell….if u call proton and nobody answer blame tm,late registration blame tm,everythin put a blame on him…why not blame the staff?the ceo,coo and so on…why not blame the vendors for the problem that occurs in proton cars?why not blame dato kisai,dato maruan,dato hasan kentut and so on…bcos thats what malaysian people is…just know how to bash ppl..dont really know how to do work…just know how to play golf and when somethin happen,try to point to someone else…pitty that old tiger tm..
Bolehliau said,
January 4, 2006 @ 5:42 pm
My money is on mistake by either DM or Rafidah (tak kisahla who). Why give out national car status so easily meh?
we have to blame rafidah on that case…u should see her house at tropicana…its ssooooooo big man.she's making money out of it…that for sure.u shold see haniff house as well…all gold plated maaa…
ala shaymen…some malaysian will not want malaysian to proceed…that's just it…essembly only…
no need to be engineer…no need to study higher…just be pekerja kilang..malaysian dont need to design or be designers like those americans,japs,germans…we just essembly things from them and buy products from them…now with the signing of free trade with japan..no tax..we can buy from them without them paying tax to us for our nation's grows or fuel subsidies..remember fuel rise…govt got no money for that now..wait for free trade in 10 years..with everything underdeclared here no wonder fuel cost keep rising.
now we just buy and the cash flow will go out to those countries…we cannot compete in industrial terms cos we dont know how to be designers ie american.japs etc2…what do we have to export them..pls dont say myvi..hahahahahahaha….outdated japcar…in fact p2 will sure closed when daihatsu bring in thier boon here without tax..
so..we r left with agriculture…sell fruits and cow to japan…hmmmmmmmm…lots of profit kaaa?????
malaysians will be slaves forever b'cos of our own idiotic mindset..
Jolly Roger said,
January 4, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
Outspoken;
Thank you for your kind words. If only some other ppl can discuss issues in a civilised manner and be less prone to personal attacks based on imaginary characteristics and preferences. I for one enjoyed expressing my opinions with ppl on this blog, it is just unfortunate that some ppl have to resort to crude tactics and cheap shots just because their opinions are not the same.
cehh…just want to gain sympathy from ppl….wanna show that ur right and ppl should listen to what u hav said…piiiiiiraaa mabuk jauh jauh.
i told u guys…that guy only want to sell proton shares to temasek at super duper low price..investment banker la konon
i still dont see why malaysians dont want to see proton venture out to bikes etc like honda…whereelse naza can even sell maruku if they want..
pity malaysia …from agriculture country…to industrial..to agriculture back…and somemore kena jajah…
guess we never can get out of being third world country..people r satisfied with this…pasang siap IKEA attitude
After reading all the comments, I am extremely happy to learn that there are still Malaysians as irrational as some posters here. Without rationale, without logic and common sense, without the ability to detect any slight hint of sarcasm.
To these people, keep up the good work and continue along your merry path. At least I can tell my children not to worry about being below average when they grow up because that slot is already taken.
I don't give a hoot where my money ends up when I spend it. As long as what I buy meets my needs, so be it. Whether it ends up in Japan, Europe, China (increasingly these days), doesn't matter.
What is the point in buying "Malaysian" (how Malaysian Proton products are is still debatable) when I end up with 3rd grade, 2nd class, not-up-to-scratch products.
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
no need to be engineer…no need to study higher…just be pekerja kilang..malaysian dont need to design or be designers like those americans,japs,germans…we just essembly things from them and buy products from them…now with the signing of free trade with japan..no tax..we can buy from them without them paying tax to us for our nation’s grows or fuel subsidies..remember fuel rise…govt got no money for that now..wait for free trade in 10 years..with everything underdeclared here no wonder fuel cost keep rising.
ahah… i agree wit u la param.i dont know what our grandchild would be in the future..lets hope they dont bcome like all thailand teenagers,to be a hooker on the street…or maybe a stripdancer…huhuhuhuhhu.thanks to our new gov who give the free trade with kak endons country..
weii…got to go mate..got a date la…..may jolly beans live happily ever after when his kid bcome a slave…
The European Commission is threathening legal action against China for discrimination against European car companies, with their latest decision to revise tax tariffs for car parts which indirectly forces companies to source components from Chinese producers.
China has reclassified car parts as ‘fully finished cars’, something like CBU, which carries a 34% tax, double from the previous rate. Because parts are expensive to bring in now, in order to be economically competitive manufacturers have to source parts from Chinese producers to avoid the high tax.
The problem is foreign car manufacturers are not allowed to setup their own businesses in China. They must partner up with an existing Chinese company, forced to accept minority shareholding. Allowing a Chinese company access to all your designs would only result in one thing, vehicle piracy!
and that's why TM cant get into china…but we can let them set up plant here????everyone is protecting their automotive sector one way or another..u r just blinded by morons proton mindless factless bashing..end
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
if tm were no good…why does he been chosen as ceo of the year by i think times mag…i think somethings wrong wit jollys la..like i told u bfor,we just want to steal whatever they know bout bikes,car,planes,etc…so that proton could built its own i dont know,maybe motorbike,heli or somethin…like honda built a robot,mitsu built the zero fighter planes engines and hell man..ur the one should grow up…..i still think that selling agusta is a big mistake..theres a lot we can learn from it..
___________________________
Eh where got Time magazine award him CEO of the year. Time mag only award Person of the Year. You trying to cilok us ka? Kalau ya pun, be more careful with your cilokla. At least JR put down numbers and references.
shaymen said,
January 4, 2006 @ 7:09 pm
driver said,
January 4, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
If I were proton owner and a decision maker, I will questions the Italian, sack them for not performing. Change some of the employees benefits and make them resign by themselves.
i agree wit u la driver….but dont u think that its to much to handle all byhimself..its not tm to be blame,the staff aswell….if u call proton and nobody answer blame tm,late registration blame tm,everythin put a blame on him…why not blame the staff?the ceo,coo and so on…why not blame the vendors for the problem that occurs in proton cars?why not blame dato kisai,dato maruan,dato hasan kentut and so on…bcos thats what malaysian people is…just know how to bash ppl..dont really know how to do work…just know how to play golf and when somethin happen,try to point to someone else…pitty that old tiger tm..
___________________________________________
CEO must always take responsibiliti bro. Look at that iorina at HP. Startegy tak jalan, tak kisah apa sebab, still kena jalan.. Same here. Anyway, if TM bagus sangat he can always get another job or run some of the other businesses he have…this one is just kacau daun punye action.
Paramsingwalia maybe you should go see Proton and apply for job there if you have all these ideas and think you can do a better job than the ppl there. My hubby works there and after showing what you've written he just shrugged and said something I cannot print here.
Shaymen;
With all your "knowledge" abt Proton, you clearly are an insider or someone that derives some benefit from Proton. Its a shame that your loyalties are with the previous CEO rather than the company itself. It is also unfortunate that you want to blame the likes of Kisai and Maruan when everyone knows the type of personality Mahaleel was when he was in charge and how he pushed his weight to get pet projects done. Either that or you are somehow related to Mahaleel n is now doing damage limitation work to jaga periuk nasi (am talking abt the Proton dealership in KB and the dealings that went on for a certain deal with supply of vehicles to the army).
paramsingwalia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 7:27 pm
i still dont see why malaysians dont want to see proton venture out to bikes etc like honda…whereelse naza can even sell maruku if they want..
pity malaysia …from agriculture country…to industrial..to agriculture back…and somemore kena jajah…
guess we never can get out of being third world country..people r satisfied with this…pasang siap IKEA attitude
————————————————————–
I think you came out with that conclusion yourself, Mr. P. Having read carefully what you, Shaymen, and Jolly were talking about, I can see that everyone seems to want Proton to improve. The only disagreement you guys are having is on how you want the improvements to be. Atleast that is from you and Jolly Roger. You, Mr. paramsingwalia want proton to expand their product range, which I agree is important. Jolly wants Proton to improve their financial position, which I also see as very important. Shaymen on the other hand is just talking bollocks, only backing Tengku Mahaleel (no confusions anymore) by only looking at the good things hes done to Proton (while I agree he did do some good things for Proton, the bad things he's done outweighs the good ones), without having a valid point.
The fact of the matter right now is that MV Agusta has been sold. Whether you agree or disagree on this transaction, let us all be adults and agree to disagree. Time will tell whether or not the decision was right. Now it's up to the current board to turn things around. Now TM had 8 years at the top, and unfortunately after those 8 years, Proton products' quality are still yet to improve. The cars that has come out didn't actually meet market demand. Market shares are down. The Tanjung Malim plant is under utilised. So many things to be rectified by the current board. What I would like to see is that the current board to rectify all these problems, increase sales in Malaysia, and once all of that are done, then only they start thinking of increasing their product range.
As for TM (Tengku Mahaleel), my advice to him is he should just keep quiet, it's not as if he's done a brilliant job at proton in the first place. He's got loads of unanswered questions behind his decisions as the top man in Proton. They were not questioned during his tenure there because no one dared to defy him, as he was managing Proton like he owns the company. Now he's gone, people are letting those unanswered questions go, because it's time to move on. Now, he needs to move on as well.
To the Proton board, please be more transparent. Honestly, I'd like to know the answers to those questions myself.
To Shaymen, are you actually Tengku Mahaleel himself? Or probably Tengku Djan? A bit too fanatic about TM, I might say.
Oops! said,
January 4, 2006 @ 7:03 pm
I agree with Jolly that the 2 TM don’t have any legal rights to question the current board as to why disposing off MV at Euro1.
But any how, writing off such a big investment should warrant an investigation by SC and Proton should be more transparent about it rather than just give a few line of explanation that it is not a core business.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey Oopps and all;
I agree that the disclosure should have been more voluminous but like most listed companies, Proton would tailor their response to the queries based on the scope of the query itself. The rationale might seem SOP but the remainder of the info in the release should be sufficient to form an informed opinion of what is being shifted and for how much consideration. The E1 is just the token cash payment but the real value is offloading responsibility for approximately E 138 million.
You may also want to pay attention to the various Shareholder's Agreements and Service Agreements mentioned in the release. It suggests that despite having equity control of MV Agusta, actual control was still in the hands of the Italians. Had I been the vendor that sold to Proton, I would be a happy man indeed – I ran the company to the ground, sold it off for more than what its worth, negotiated to keep my job and retain management control at the same time while Proton pays the bills. Lovely execution at the expense of Malaysians. Was there hanky-panky, dunno…gross negligence, maybe. Time will tell, especially if Proton now decides to take action (criminal report or civil action).
As to whether it would warrant an investigation, probably not. Shareholders approval is also not required since the carrying value of the investment in Proton's books have been fully written-off as at 30 march 2005.
There would be some that try to mislead you after this and say that I am feeding you with false info. As such, go do your own homework. Read up on the announcements to Bursa etc. These ppl, which I shall not rpeat their names here, are for all intents and purposes ill informed and hell bent on obfuscating the situation. Therefore, just take note.
It is fortunate that TM & TM is bringing up this issue through the mass media.
SOMEONE has got to take the heat.
Proton has to respond in public interest ( both Malaysian & stakeholders ).
The guilty party has to take the fall. AND THAT IS THE BOTTOMLINE.
WTF – 70 mil euro down the drain ( RM 84K/day ).
Zongtwi;
I agree there is need for ne more varied products of better quality (at least single standard air bags and ABS in the low line variant la). However, with their current financial situation I would think Proton would only be able to come up with what is already in the pipeline (the Satrias, Gen2 Sedans etc.) Newer products would probably have to come from their alliance partner whoever that may be. Proton will only be able to come up with new models currently not in pipeline after it has rebuild its cash horde. That could take some time now that it has very little protection compared to Perodua and Naza.
The recent signing of Economic Partnership Agreement with Japan during the Asean Summit is also a risk as it would rsult in even less protection vis-a-vis Japanese cars. I am doing my part by being driven in a Proton. Lets hope the others (that claim they are patriotic) are doing the same.
Sorry , RM 840K/day. Not used to such a big amount mah.Shit….
stevarac said,
January 4, 2006 @ 8:45 pm
It is fortunate that TM & TM is bringing up this issue through the mass media.
SOMEONE has got to take the heat.
Proton has to respond in public interest ( both Malaysian & stakeholders ).
The guilty party has to take the fall. AND THAT IS THE BOTTOMLINE.
WTF – 70 mil euro down the drain ( RM 84K/day ).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Its probably being considered (or reconsidered as the case may be – I have a feeling that as a result of the letter, you may see a retort, given the personality that Azlan is) but unlikely TM (the senior) will get into trouble. He has too much political clout despite no longer being in Government. If anything, TM (the junior) will probably get some heat heaped on him.
The problem is, there is need to ascertain if any laws (as opposed to private rights) have been breached. If it is mere private rights, it is the shareholders who must sue the Board to take civil action against management. If a criminal act was done, that is a different story.
no comment… for me, is another show coming up…
as a conclusion, like AP case, no ending, at least no acceptable ending for us, consumer, and as a Malaysian. so, let's us just seat and watch.
cheers…
gegaoff said,
January 4, 2006 @ 9:00 pm
no comment… for me, is another show coming up…
as a conclusion, like AP case, no ending, at least no acceptable ending for us, consumer, and as a Malaysian. so, let’s us just seat and watch.
cheers…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thats the beauty of Malaysian life. Always some drama. It is sad however, unlike actors who have gone past their sell by date, some personalities that no longer have any real use to the public (apart from amusing us) refuse to fade away quietly and enjoy their retirement and wait for an encore demand from the public. Instead they opt to shout for their own encores.
You guys still at it ka? Work ended 4 hours ago!!! Enjoy the evening la, why bother about the 2 TMs and Proton unless its your job on the line. Bottom line is MV Agusta has been sold and TM is no longer screwing Proton directly (but his son is still there right?) except buat kacau like this…sticks and stones my dearies.
whoa!some intense discussion here not to forget some rubish posting wasting disk space..
well for me, just give the new management to do their work, the retired ones were given their chances.. so why want to mess up other when they themself didnt like to be mess when in proton. About political favourism and buisness in GLC(not chosen for their capabilities in business).. this two mix is a big no no. Always resulting in big loses, culprit get away with style and people's money burn away as if their spending their god damn father's money.. period.
happy new year guys..
Is it really worth it to even argue about TDM and TM? They have had their chance. To me they should just keep their mouth shut. Making statements such as this only makes a mockery and laughing stock out of Proton. To Jolly I really enjoyed your counter arguments word for word & it was very constructive which I found to be quite an eye opener.
To S & P pls think carefully laaa, why defend TM who had a miserable track record, I find it amusing that he was even chosen to the CEO of the year!! If I had the chance I would have shove the Waja 1.8 up his arse for even launching a crappy product!!
Zongtwi,
im not being disrespectful here but i think u r the one who should stop whining. If you were that great (in the sense of commenting what TMahaleel did wrong), you should've offered ur service to Proton (as i remember reading you saying that you'd met a lot of Proton's ppl)
I'm sure you'll be one heck of a leader. Just that if you fall some day and when ppl start criticising u, you'll know that it is not easy to lead a big corporation like proton (im not saying that i have the experience or im leading one but you should consider all the factors for the failure of a company to work effectively and not just bashing the TMs or whoever for not doing a good job when you're not even a decision maker in PRoton)
Neutral said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:13 pm
Zongtwi,
im not being disrespectful here but i think u r the one who should stop whining. If you were that great (in the sense of commenting what TMahaleel did wrong), you should’ve offered ur service to Proton (as i remember reading you saying that you’d met a lot of Proton’s ppl)
I’m sure you’ll be one heck of a leader. Just that if you fall some day and when ppl start criticising u, you’ll know that it is not easy to lead a big corporation like proton (im not saying that i have the experience or im leading one but you should consider all the factors for the failure of a company to work effectively and not just bashing the TMs or whoever for not doing a good job when you’re not even a decision maker in PRoton)
—————————————————————
Neutral, nice points there. Wouldn't mind having proper comments and discussion like this. To be honest, I'm working here at Lotus UK, and that is how I know about TM's wrong doings. Although myself directly have not been at any receiving end of the consequences of TM's failure as a leader, but I have met loads of people both from Proton and Lotus that were affected one way or another. When TM was ousted, the only people that were sad was a small bunch of his cronies. Everyone else saw it as a blessing. What I couldn't accept was that TM had actually come out and criticise the current board on their decisions. Kirenye macam bagus sangat je TM tu. If only you knew the extent of the mismanagement done by TM, you'd be as 'whiny' as me.
Jolly roger said:
"Given that the share price of Proton improved upon announcement of the sale has got to mean a few other informed investors agree with this assessment. "
proton share took a beating 4.1.06 frm 6.35 cent to 6.30 cent….opps not everyone agreeable to your assessment.
drmuzi
drmuzi said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:55 pm
Jolly roger said:
“Given that the share price of Proton improved upon announcement of the sale has got to mean a few other informed investors agree with this assessment. â€
proton share took a beating 4.1.06 frm 6.35 cent to 6.30 cent….opps not everyone agreeable to your assessment.
drmuzi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do your math "Dr". Still above price on 28 Dec 2005 when the disposal was announced. Clearly a lot of ppl see value in the disposal. Hopefully you'll be able to get a few analyst reports in the next few days and go through them. As the old saying goes, "never throw good money after bad" and "always err on the side of caution". I believe that is what the new management has done.
1. Never throw good money after bad – MV Agusta was a bad investment, cut off the gangrene before it spreads.
2. Always err on the side of caution – MV Agusta has been a drain and is likely to continue bein a drain. The so called benefits have yet to materialise. We only have the two TMs words for it. Not good enough…especially since these two are not exactly known for their business and financial acumen.
Kudos to the new management for not believing in the hype unlike the two TMs.
hmm… hmm… looks like there are still ppl generous enuf to share his knowledge here with another bunch of die-hards… hatuk edi malas trying to enlighten them… they'll stick to their own rose-tinted glasses no matter wat…
anyway, interesting discussion… everyone has their own view and would really love to see the other guy gets converted… the only ugly part are those personal attacks… it's so childish… why cant we argue our points peacefully like a grown ups instead of name-calling and verbal attacks?
Haiya…all these shit….So many vision, vision 2020 la….bla, bla, bla…but all getting very blur la….Must make a lot of money and get the hell out of here la.
By looking at it, I think to achieve TM Vision 2020, must be push to 3030.
proton edar announced last night that it will continue discount despite losses.
quote'-Datuk Maruan Mohd Said, CEO Proton Edar) admitted that the discounts given by Proton have affected the profits of Proton.
never happened before..and please dont say that TM produced to much cars…it's about the same amount..of course u have to produce much so the price will be lower..so u have to ask the new management about the losses in sales…last time azlan only report to the public that market car sales go up for proton…but never mention losses about discount given…is that what u want?the public?for the chairman to hide the truth?
and then we as the malaysian public..pls read carefully what TDM and TM wants…
-TO THE NEW MANAGEMENT OF PROTON TO EXPLAIN TO THE BOARD AND THE 'PUBLIC!!!!!!!" ABOUT THE SELLING ETC2 OF MV AND ETC2….PLS READ CAREFULLY..U ALL ARE THE PUBLIC…SO U DONT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING…LET PROTON HOLDINGS DO WHATEVER THEY WANT COS U JUST WANT TO BE A PROTON BASHER?what u are doing is just let the new management blame the old management for everything..now they are questioning,but u all are like defending without the new management answering first
MALAYSIAN PUBLIC ARE BECOMING MORE STUPID BY THE DAY LA LIKE THIS
cos,see here..these two guys wants them to explain to u but u dont care and just start bashing…is it better than that we have transparency?now these two might be digging their own grave since all of u are sooo into believing they are wrong…SO?let the chairman explain la…if TDM and TM is wrong..then u will be satisfied what…but u all make noise..making those people inside easier to hide anything cos of mindless proton bashing by so called experts(lotus workers la,inside knowledge la)
who knows that the deal is worth more than what is reported…LOOKS like u dont want to knows? if those two are brave enough to challenge than maybe there's more to it than meets the eye.WHO KNOWS?SURELY NOT YOU!COS U SURELY DONT WANT TO!
and to point out…if what u say is true that TM and tun is rich already and they are out of proton…this will only destroy them…nothing to gain anymore..so let the chairman explain la…surely people who are rich enough will just quiet down..why start digging own grave?nobody charging them..might as well shut up..THE PUBLIC MUST START LEARNING TO READ BETWEEN THE LINES….see ap kings?rich already..shutup already…use ur brains la..
but the thing is there's no body questioning them on why buying a motobike company when they themself a car manufacturer.. no one dare to ask them to explain that in public. As for technological enhancement, TM as an ex rally driver should know that an expect of technological development can be achieve through rally just like mitsubishi, subaru, citroen, pegout and for god sake even hyndai. And we do have an ace driver like Karamjit singh but now wihtout sponsor and even have to collect his car from new zealand with his own money. Not long ago if u really follow pert rally team development, the pert team even enhanced the rear suspension system to be an independant system of mitsubishi fiore and even make it to a four wheel drive car. But i guess the project was all drain to toilet now. And after the car was banned because it was not really a prodution car(or something like that) i guess they just stick on using evo rebrand to proton turbo.. so no more development. And not to forget BTCC. The only thing people can see is the one who is really in the car technological development was petronas – even the first malaysian car engine was done by petronas. Even most of the engineers of performace car people would recognize as petronas who send malaysian engineer not proton.
I'm not saying that TM is dumb or what so ever, but its like there are two way to in achieving technological enhancement one is good but other is better, why not choose the better one. So as for agusta, i'm not saying that we cannot achieve any technological dev from that company(not considering time to take the company out of debt) but we once have a better platform on developing car technologies but why leave it. For the sake of marketing, whick car would you buy – car based on rally technology(just like hyundai) or car based on bike technology.
So the bottom line is, they were given their chances to improve proton and they did it and i must say they have done their job and there's certainly some merit to give them although some would not. But for now, give the new management to handle it. As for public view on the agusta thing, for me the reason to cut it off rahter draining proton's money in time to wait for some bike technological to be transfer is fine by me because, if ther really want to find a company to buy and transfer technology, they should find a company with a technology that can fix their plastic quality problem first.
happy new year
If Proton don;t give discount on recent promotion, they not even make any profit, the sales definately would not hit 54000. No sales no profit, less profit better than died immediately.
Ratnavendra said,
January 4, 2006 @ 12:21 am
…. Mahalel had the vision to develop proton as a brand as opposed to the current board that seems to be aligned towards manufacturing and operations
___________________________________________________________________________
Sadly not many see that. TM did set up a R&D facility and a Ultra Modern manufacturing base that would see Proton through to next century with Proton own's cash no less
.
It's true not everything he did was the best but give the guy his dues la.
Proton has over 6000 employees and when anything goes wrong The Ex CEO is blamed for everything.That's a bit unfair isn't it.
For seeking out the truths and promoting transparency among the GLC, let the new management answering the question. Malaysian are smart enough to judge whatever steps taken by GLC. Afterall, Proton belongs to Malaysian and they are anwerable not only to the Prime Minister and its Parliament Member, but also to the PUBLIC.
To all, Let the new management do their job…
Dear all esp. Jolly, Zongtwi, param etc.
I admire TDM & TM for the way they are. A leader with a vision. However, unlike the senior (TDM) where it has a solid support base, TM never has the solid support that he should have. This kind of problem is faced by many GLC's CEO, as they have to appease the middle mgt, politicians etc.
What he had done in his time is commendable enough, as now Proton has own platform. I believe if more resources is available, Proton will have more platform, but at the moment 4 platform should be more then enough for the company to survive.
1st and foremost he is not an engineer, just a rally driver. Thats why he acquire Lotus & MV, that has tuning capability but no mfg. capacity and expertise. Thats what rally drivers do.
At this moment what Proton need to do is to consolidate their expertise, to create more varied products. Infact each platform can be made into more then 1 variant that we have now. Then try to make common parts. Toyota take 20yrs to do such thing, so at this age Proton should do it in 5
Joe said,
January 5, 2006 @ 9:08 am
…. And we do have an ace driver like Karamjit singh but now wihtout sponsor and even have to collect his car from new zealand with his own money. …
And not to forget BTCC. The only thing people can see is the one who is really in the car technological development was petronas – even the first malaysian car engine was done by petronas. Even most of the engineers of performace car people would recognize as petronas who send malaysian engineer not proton
___________________________________________________________________________What has an Onld Karamjit Gotta do with anything???..
And Petronas never wanted Proton's R&D involvemnet anyway. All they wanted was a platform to use.
Petronas does not allow Proton to access anything they did when Proton had already supplied the shells and engine for they usage.
http://www.theedgedaily.com/cms/content.jsp?id=co…
sheymen said,
"i agree wit u la driver….but dont u think that its to much to handle all byhimself..its not tm to be blame,the staff aswell….if u call proton and nobody answer blame tm,late registration blame tm,everythin put a blame on him…why not blame the staff?the ceo,coo and so on…why not blame the vendors for the problem that occurs in proton cars?why not blame dato kisai,dato maruan,dato hasan kentut and so on…bcos thats what malaysian people is…just know how to bash ppl..dont really know how to do work…just know how to play golf and when somethin happen,try to point to someone else…pitty that old tiger tm.."
I agree with your statement. Failure of proton is not just a failure of one person.
i'm aint saying karamjit gotta do with the whole deal here, but just as an example in driver so as in rally to develop car tech.
and as for petronas never wanted r&d involment from proton, whoa! this is something new for my knowledge i guess. so if that the case, this do really mean that proton has been dooped by petronas, but hell, these big companies were no kiddies on top, they have top best management. Takkan la proton never realised they've been dooped for nearly 10 years of co sponsoring with petronas for nothing and petronas gain all tech? if proton really wanted technology they should turn the deal so as they can gain technology. Just like the blame on suppliers supplying lame quality part to them. Blaming the suppliers while they should make proper deal with them. They can discard all the lame suppliers and find another good local suppliers and make new deal in the past, but they dont. They just keeping on blamming the suppliers. Somekind of lame managemnet on deals maybe? dont know i'm no manager at proton.
The thing is let by gone be by gone, let the past be past. I dont deny that TM have done improvements to proton but as for the weaknesses left and i'm sure they are, let the new management proof are they worth it to manage proton. But the problem is, he's poking people inside from outside. Give them some slack, give some time to them, its not even a year. If they just make things worst, just kick'em and find better management.
some of us like to give lame excuse like if you like to talk a lot then you better be the top management la, be the boss la, replace him la, be him la.. come on la, you guys can do better than this in discussing.
first of all, try to differentiate basher and critics. well there's a whole lot of people bashing and make personal attacks using rubbish words, no doubt about it, but some do give some new sight and info either they agree or disagree with you.. we need critics but not stupid mindless bashing.
And as for anyone who give complaint to proton should be the top management, again, i think this is quite ridiculos. Then every unsatisfied customer comes to proton edar or eon service complaining their proton car problem should fill up form to be the proton management.
this proton should be changed. It shouldn't be a G-controlled company coz it had to help the local automotive industry to develop, putting its profits aside. As a result, the part vendors just supply poor quality parts knowing that no matter wat happen, their parts will still be accepted by proton. proton should not be a GLC, instead be a profit based company. Enough of helping to develop the heavy industries coz they r nt helping themselves, just waiting somebody to feed them. Once proton is transformed, they no longer hv to buy those SUPER expensive n SUPER poor quality parts from those NASTY vendors, n start looking for cheap n good quality parts elsewhere. GLC is bringing proton down, down, down……….if nothing is being done doom! Mampuslah proton. It seems G doesn't that or am I wrong? sorry if all these is wrong!
Happy/Sad New Year To All!!
Hello Everybody!! Happy New Year 2006…..but maybe is not so happy to see this news again.
For those who like my YAU MOU GAU….CHOR!! Blog and comments, THANK YOU:
Sorry lah….I was on Holidays ……year end mah……Just wanna to relax abit lor. :P
Okay2 back to this topic!
Ayoi…..Selling MVA just 1 Euro??? :(
I am not worry about this selling price too low lah, I'm more worry about Whether those Monkeys in Potong can really turn POTONG around or not. (IN TWO years times) Recently Potong had loss market share at Bolehland and oversea markets (Cannot survive) that's was the BIGGEST concerned lah. I guess it is the most serious issue.
Owning or Selling MV now is not so important for POTONG to continue the business rights?
I would said Tunggu Mahal..leh should shut-up, He has made enough trouble to POTONG lah. For the New Monkey who decided to Sell off MV, please make sure you do it not because of YOU Hate Tunggu Mahal..leh. I hope you all will Think before you act!!
JUST To remind you all that, POTONG making profit in the past does not means the MANAGEMENT is doing well or ppl like POTONG cars, it is only because of ppl got no options and Money.
Honestly, the most Valuable Asset of any company is the "People". You can buy the COMPANY but you cannot buy the ppl. I think Only the People can make the company success and only the people make it different from each company not the Name of the company or Facilities!! Try to find out GOOD ppl to work with POTONG lah!! RESTRUCTURING is necessary, Remember I said before "Don't care of White cat or Black cat, can caught a Mouse is called GOOD cat!"
YAU MOU GAU…..CHOR!! more than 180 comments!!! :P
like param said…
let the new management explain to the public like what those two TM's asked
we as a public should be known
those two are sticking their necks out to be slaughtered IF THEY'RE WRONG.
so..let proton explain la…why someore here so dont want to know the truth to be revealed to the public is beyond me.
and i say the management to explain..cos a lot of people like to think ex ceo is the only one working in proton…
6000+ staff and 1 person to blame?
I thought I read in the Star that the total debts was 238 million Euro. Not 138 million Euro.
Laetitia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 7:59 pm
With all your “knowledge†abt Proton, you clearly are an insider or someone that derives some benefit from Proton. Its a shame that your loyalties are with the previous CEO rather than the company itself. It is also unfortunate that you want to blame the likes of Kisai and Maruan when everyone knows the type of personality Mahaleel was when he was in charge and how he pushed his weight to get pet projects done. Either that or you are somehow related to Mahaleel n is now doing damage limitation work to jaga periuk nasi (am talking abt the Proton dealership in KB and the dealings that went on for a certain deal with supply of vehicles to the army).
waa..proton is not sticking to the core business anymore ahh…now selling tanks to the army ahh?i've never seen proton cars with a cannon bfor……ur hubby must be very proud laaa this time…
zongtwi a.k.a. speed junkie said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:46 pm
Neutral, nice points there. Wouldn’t mind having proper comments and discussion like this. To be honest, I’m working here at Lotus UK, and that is how I know about TM’s wrong doings.
oii speed junkie…bfor this u said u heard from some ppl in proton that tm office got spa n everythin,but aoready proven by someone its not true..now ur saying that ur working at lotus UK…..hahahahahahaha…what,ur tukang sapu there or what?or ur just a bangla working there….huhuhuhuhuhuh
SEE FU said,
January 5, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
Hello Everybody!! Happy New Year 2006…..but maybe is not so happy to see this news again.
For those who like my YAU MOU GAU….CHOR!! Blog and comments, THANK YOU:
oiii see fu…..what the hell is yau mou gau chor laaa?????speak in bm or in english laaa…if not u go to mainland laa…
1 euro…
where I can buy….
I should say for both TM like this:
Hey bloody hell… in the 1st place… why both of you buy MV Agusta? if Modenas buy, then it make sense… motobike is their bussiness… what are both of you looking for? adapt a motobike design to P1 cars? We already have Lotus right? For how many years? nor the P1 cars adapt with Lotus exterior design as well… interior OK la put in Gen2 but still customer complain about no glove box… this is a passenger car… not sport car… what a bad deceision…
Actually both of the clown want to sell the brand only… to show that P1 is maha hebat… Savvy is "My first Lotus" kononnya… Terung is "Design by MV Agusta" la agaknya… macam 'Design by Pininfarina" la tu kot…
Dream on… what Jeremy Clarkson said ? "Proton Savvy… My first Lotus?… hahahaha… Take it of the screen, I don't wanna see it anymore"… what a shame… can sell the name but do wisely la… design just look alike one of the Lotus car and you can say my 1st Lotus… world will not look down to P1… must always remember… 1st impressions is from the look…
shaymen said,
January 5, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
zongtwi a.k.a. speed junkie said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:46 pm
Neutral, nice points there. Wouldn’t mind having proper comments and discussion like this. To be honest, I’m working here at Lotus UK, and that is how I know about TM’s wrong doings.
hey dude….. i'm working at ferrari, my father work at mva, my mother work at toyota, my sister work at mitsubishi and juan pablo mantoya is my uncle kah kah kah kah……… everybody can make that stupid statement la dude
Stop involving racial issues can or not? You guys are giving me an aneurysm!
Heheh… Yeah… Buying a Company will allow you to steal their technology….. Proton did that but only steal some… Why not all? They should move the personality of Lotus Car into Proton Not the Proton Car Personality into Lotus… :D
Still… I think… The things that normally Malaysian Cares about is… The Style and the design of the car… Well.. Mostly… :D
buddy said,
January 5, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
shaymen said,
January 5, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
zongtwi a.k.a. speed junkie said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:46 pm
Neutral, nice points there. Wouldn’t mind having proper comments and discussion like this. To be honest, I’m working here at Lotus UK, and that is how I know about TM’s wrong doings.
hey dude….. i’m working at ferrari, my father work at mva, my mother work at toyota, my sister work at mitsubishi and juan pablo mantoya is my uncle kah kah kah kah……… everybody can make that stupid statement la dude
i know…just wanna show that he knows nothin laa brader..he's just a poser.
waah…good life stories written here…u dah lari topics la fren..ppl dont give a damn bout ur story..we just want proton new management to answer the questions by those two TM…now they said that they wanna answer it,just wait n see laa what will happens next…no need to be the next theresa kok here…
shaymen said,
January 5, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
Laetitia said,
January 4, 2006 @ 7:59 pm
With all your “knowledge†abt Proton, you clearly are an insider or someone that derives some benefit from Proton. Its a shame that your loyalties are with the previous CEO rather than the company itself. It is also unfortunate that you want to blame the likes of Kisai and Maruan when everyone knows the type of personality Mahaleel was when he was in charge and how he pushed his weight to get pet projects done. Either that or you are somehow related to Mahaleel n is now doing damage limitation work to jaga periuk nasi (am talking abt the Proton dealership in KB and the dealings that went on for a certain deal with supply of vehicles to the army).
waa..proton is not sticking to the core business anymore ahh…now selling tanks to the army ahh?i’ve never seen proton cars with a cannon bfor……ur hubby must be very proud laaa this time…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shaymen, you r such a moron and a real stupid one at that. All your comments abt this guy or that guy being gay is probably trying to over compendsate for you deficiencies. As for my posting, it is refering to fleet sales of cars not tanks. Mana ada I said anything abt tanks. Kalau nak cuba tipu tr to do it properly…moron.
Paul if u need i kilo panadol i will donate…seriously whoever takes over proton, please please come up with something quality….i don mind design who ciplak who but don't come up with falling parts…My wishlist for 2006 is for proton vendors to repent their sins and provide us consumers with better parts and for better quality cars….Its not that I hate spending time @ SC's not because the auntie don't serve me free coffee….I don't care about TM1 or TM2 squabbling about proton but whatever happens please save our national pride and joy….then at least there'll be less people bashing about protons all the time
yup..yup…stop bashing proton..improve it…plastics interior etc2..wonder why nobody ever complaint bout avanza plastics interior..just the same…
of course…its a toyota
3rd world country mentality
Shaymen, you r such a moron and a real stupid one at that. All your comments abt this guy or that guy being gay is probably trying to over compendsate for you deficiencies. As for my posting, it is refering to fleet sales of cars not tanks. Mana ada I said anything abt tanks. Kalau nak cuba tipu tr to do it properly…moron.
im sayin that bcos i dont understand what the hell are u talking bout la old lady….u said that im related to this fellow la,sellin cars to the army la..what the hell is that?so,i assume that maybe proton are sellin their cars to the army equipp with cannon laa…budus punye perempuan.u said that ur genius hubby said that…sellin savvy with torpedos..hahahahahaha
shaymen said,
January 5, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
zongtwi a.k.a. speed junkie said,
January 4, 2006 @ 10:46 pm
Neutral, nice points there. Wouldn’t mind having proper comments and discussion like this. To be honest, I’m working here at Lotus UK, and that is how I know about TM’s wrong doings.
i guess speedjunkie is ur husband friend la laetitia…huhuhuhu.speedjunkie works at proton and lotus at the same time..
hhahahahaahhaha…maybe this lady oso believe the monster in the savvy ad is his hubby in bed…LOL…
and the vios ad monster is her hubby gatal hand…like sotong…maybe like trans
speed junkie oso believe in santa clause…
sebab pendam ni la….maybe proton will come out with batik clad seats…and meters with batik….ahhahahahahahahhahahhaha
paramsingwalia said,
January 5, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
yup..yup…stop bashing proton..improve it…plastics interior etc2..wonder why nobody ever complaint bout avanza plastics interior..just the same…
of course…its a toyota
3rd world country mentality
they never complaint bcos they feel ashame of themself buying expensive cars who have a problem also la mate..malaysian ppl never complaint bout bmw,mercedes,etc….dia orang takut nanti orang kata dia bodoh,orang kampung and whatsoever bila dia complaint,so if their luxury car had a problem,they just fix it quietly….huhuhuhuhu.
well it seems that in the first round….Tun will have what he want….a response frm Proton…
and we will see what else will suffice….atthe end of the day …Tun come out …unscathed….victorious …as in the case of AP issue…when;
1. Rafidah , the iron lady of Msia…cried in public multiple times…
2. Pak Lah the PM has to response to the call of "org awam" or a pensioner that is the Tun ,to come out with th elist that Pak LAh refusing in the first place
3. Gone the era of Hanif and syed azman….now that DRB Hicom…under Syed AL Bukhari is able to bring cars without a middle man…( Syed Bukhari and Tun M …sound so familiar….hehe)
4.Collection of undeclared taxes by the custom ..amounting to rm 50 million…
well ….
we see what will happend ..but i always amazed of Tun in turning something that initiaaly appeared bad to harm …to others..in the case watch out Mr Azlan….
drmuzi
again…i agree with u la mr param bout that batik things..hehehehehel….lets just wait what are the response from proton new management,laetitia's husband would say to all we malaysian people…
dr muzi..
but rafidah cried but escaped with billions with our subsidies fuel money…
then customs only collect 50million….hmmmmm….sounds fishy to me….taht only totalled to how many ap…not even half…for a year…
what drmuzi said is right…we just wait and see what will happen in this war between them..
i kept that pictures of rafidah cryin in the public!…her square face look so cute when she's cryin…huhuhuhuhuhu.
and her neck…macam kueh lapis or bak kut teh…
hey shaymen…
where are all the lotus uk staff and proton staff wife 2????hahahahahha
paramsingwalia said,
January 5, 2006 @ 5:56 pm
dr muzi..
but rafidah cried but escaped with billions with our subsidies fuel money…
then customs only collect 50million….hmmmmm….sounds fishy to me….taht only totalled to how many ap…not even half…for a year…
they want to close the story la fren…everybody know that certain people have the ap in certain amount..that square face did escape with lots of money la of cos..50,000ap to a guy?then collect 50million lahh…huhuhuhuhu.new G donno what to do la..they been threaten i think,if u do so and so,i do so and so…thats why la frenn…
hope tun win this round and get all our tax money back….dont let the fuel price to go up again…
paramsingwalia said,
January 5, 2006 @ 6:01 pm
hey shaymen…
where are all the lotus uk staff and proton staff wife 2????hahahahahha
they are all tryin to give response to those two TM bcos laetitia has reported to her husband what we all have said here laa mr param……
i think mr jolly bean is testing the lotus exige on what engine they wanna use laa…after all,he's an X investment banker come engineer come all what….
hahahahahahaahha…rights shaymen…that lady is still searching for the savvy with torpedo's and cannon…
hmmmm….i think laetitia n hubby watched too many bond films…or maybe austin powers….military power cars….hahahhahhaahha
laetitia lives in fantasy island ka???
the plane!!!!….the plane!!!!….
paramsingwalia said,
January 5, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
hahahahahahaahha…rights shaymen…that lady is still searching for the savvy with torpedo’s and cannon…
hmmmm….i think laetitia n hubby watched too many bond films…or maybe austin powers….military power cars….hahahhahhaahha
laetitia lives in fantasy island ka???
the plane!!!!….the plane!!!!….
hey watch out mr param…laetitita husband and the penguin azlan is going to give a response soon…so u better wait n hear..
let's wait and see laa…..that laetita only a proton basher and tali barut only
jollyyy….oh mr jollyyyy….
dont u watch the news last nite?why does proton wanna make a promo like the last time they make?????????????u come and try n give me that super duper calculation of yours.i wanna hear it laaa…what?low margin?what?……price depreciation of 20%?….dont u hear what the news said last nite?what happen to laetitia husband in dec?proton has loss,BIG TIME…the way i see it,ur theory cannot be use in real life la mr jolly bean….this is not klse la.'when the draft drops,let it drop closely to the ground so it can bounce back with full force'.like ping pong ball.HAHHHH!…nonsense la mr jolly.tukang sapu kat lotus uk,cakap la tukang sapu.theres nothin to be ashame off here..
jolly….ohh mr jollyyyyyyy!…where are you dear?
i think u guys wandered off from the topic –
WHATEVER quality issues with Proton cannot be undone now already … this is stale issue
the real beef / issue is if the MV Augusta debt is not payable for the next 3 years, why suddenly make a few billion provision to pay off such debt ? The real issue is were the so-called provision being made in lieu of the Proton plans to get rif off the excess stock ? If it is so, the some entity should definetely owe a lot of explanation to the shareholders/public because they are now knowingly deceiving people that the lost provisions being made is actually to hid the fact that most likely the company's large loss is as a result of poor management / sales as opposed to the very conveninent label of bad-debt.
Selling off at 1 Euro won't detract the fact that Proton paid billions to buy into the ailing motocycle manufacturer … since they got 3 years to squezze whatever out of Augusta it is not reasonable at all to make such large-debt provisions …
Whenever you pay a huge sum for a debt-ridden company, the key issue is whether what can you do to make that debt-ridden company to ride out of trouble so as to derive the benefit …
i already appointed that out…edar suffering losses cos of discount confirmed by maruan-geez-laetita must be syiok hearing this guy name..
then all of the sudden last night…azlan announced that discount continues…
what bizz r they running…
only pakar economi like jolly bean can answer…
or he can always sell proton shares to temasek again at lower price…
hah..investment banker….
paramsingwalia said,
January 5, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
huhuhu….mindless jolly bean.an agent or a traitor maybe…
Ahah…really funny Shaymen, and Param. Your comments have made my day today…thanks! I was having a crappy morning, but reading comments from both of you cheered me up. Thanks again.
Despite the "reports" that Proton is preparing a reply soon, I doubt that Proton will entertain the so called issues raised by the 2 TMs. Unless there is a Bursa query or a request from someone with proper locus standi (S & P, if this word is too big for you let me know) after going through proper procedures, there is no reason whatsoever to respond to the ramblings of a failed CEO and has been politician. I was told that the view is that the 2 TMs are too insignificant (a senile old man with a forked tongue and a has been rally driver that believes in his own hype) at the moment and that Proton would rather go about its business of cleaning up the mess they both created.
If anything, the 2 TMs would first have to answer some of the issues behind the purchase of MV Agusta to begin with. The fine folks here may also be interested to learn that the purchase was "tainted" to begin with, as follows:
1. The original acquisition of MV Agusta was done through Proton Capital Sdn Bhd. Would it surprise you all that the three member board of Proton Capital were at that time made up of three employees of the Proton Group that are no longer with the company. These three are the unholy trinity that make up the apex of Proton's then manaement.
2. The original acquisition was subsequently submitted for ratification (Proton Capital is a shell with no real money, so need to go back to the main board) to the main board but it failed to disclose certain material facts and projected rosy future for MV Agusta. The board, despite ratifying it, still requested certain condition precedents be included to protect Proton. These condition precedents however, were subsequently waived by the unholy trinity acting in their capacity as directors of Proton Capital.
3. One of the condition precedents waived has to do with supply of working capital to MV Agusta. As a result of this foolish schoolboy mistake by the unholy trinity, MV Agusta suffered a cash crunch. It had therefore to borrow from papa Proton. Even then, the request was approved by management (guess who) at the manufacturing and a foreign subsidiary level (these are the opeating subsis and they have some cash). The board of the holding company only got to know abt it later.
4. There were doubts about the real technological benefits of MV Agusta and its strategic fit with Proton. There were doubts of its financial as well as operating capabilities as well. However, these were all hidden, thanks to the group structure and board composition then. If you recall, one of TM sr quips when commenting on TM jr's non renewal as CEO was that the new board was convening too many meetings and asking too much info, thus "cramping his style". It was just another way of saying they were not able to hide their deeds anymore.
5. Another little known fact was that despite holding 57% of MV Agusta. Proton had no management control. A certain Mr Cocco was put in as CEO as Proton's rep. The fact of the matter is that this guy was an employee of Soc Gen who was both an adviser to Proton for the deal as well as acting as broker (what a conflict of interest). Cocco may have been the CEO, but the real power remained with Castiglioni as Chairman (and head of several divisions within the company) and his sons, who were allowed to remain with MV Agusta and paid a hefty paycheck. The shareholder's agreement entered into between Proton by TM jr also tied up Proton's hand and effectively prevented it from being able to restructure the company.
6. Following on from point no. 3, with no source of working capital and plummeting sales, there was just one way to go for MV Agusta. They tried everything, including extending credit terms beyond normal to distributors, but they could not get the volume needed as their bikes were no longer "in fashion". Stocks built up and well….
There is enough material to write a "50 Dalil" type of book of TM jr but that is just too cheap. Suffice to say the MV Agusta deal was a bad deal to begin with, dreamt up by a man that had visions of his own grandeuer and ability.
As for the personalities making noise in the forum. the two morons known as Shaymen and Paramsingwalia clearly are trying their best to overcompensate (I like that word, thanks Laetitia) for their lack of a clear head and perhaps a male tool, hence their contant sniping (bitching is more like it) and homophobia (I am tempted to say these two are probably closet gays by the looks of it but that would be demeaning to gays). Not only do they not know the difference between MV Agusta and Agusta Westalan, they had the gall to then try deflect their ignorance when I pointed out the website for each company.They also tried to make fun of th mistake I made with respect to engines, despite correcting it well before the morons chipped in, Idid not care so much about that. The crux of the matter is the corporate issues at hand and I have not been wrong with my corporate facts. I have made references to publicly available numbers from Bursa's service for investing public while they have cooked up their own imaginary factoids.
After that, they went after Laetitia with more sexual innuendos…real class for dickheads and morons I suppose, but not good enough if you want to argue out a case succintly.I bet you feel so manly after verbally assaulting a female or in your words, an old lady. I really pity your progeny…clearly they will be blessed with your moronic charms as they grow up.
As for Laetitia, she is clearly not a Proton basher but just thinks very little of TM jr and his cohorts. She did however make a minor mistake. The name of the dealership in which TM jr has an interest in Emas….. in KB. The big huha is how it got a deal to supply roughly a few thousand units of cars (not tanks as one of the Brotherhood of Morons put it) to one of the summits held in 2004. It was not to the army. It is however well documented (Proton had, if you recall, undertaken a special audit. One of the key areas was RPT).
There are other stuff that is worth sharing like what the heck Proton is doing selling bicycles (TM jrs idea, and surely someone laughed all the way to the bank). 14,000 bikes had to be written of for obsolescence so far this year. That is a lot of unsold bikes…so much for diversification. The setting up of additional plants despite not utilising current capacity is another schoolboy mistake. So is getting involved with a certain Datul L, whom he appointed as distributor for Lotus in China and paid USD 1 million to help enter the Chinese market. All these show TM's lack of business acumen…he should have stuck to driving for a living. If we take a step back and evaluate what is it exactly that was positive TM jr was supposed to have done, the list, if any would be short indeed. Despite all this, this guy is trying to take action in IR court against Proton to get his golden handshake. You see, at the end of the day, TM jr is just looking for a pay0ff
Hmmm…I wonder what S & P's fascination with me not answering them is all about. Unlike some ppl, I have a job to go to. I understand that the presence of ppl like myself, Zongtwi, Zarul et. al in the forum help increase the level of intelligence of discussions here after pea brains such as the two debase everything. However much I would like to spend more time here to help both S & P understand basic rules of intelligent discussion, I feel that all help is beyond them. These two clearly belong to the bottom of the barrel.
So lets get started….
Despite the "reports" that Proton is preparing a reply soon, I doubt that Proton will entertain the so called issues raised by the 2 TMs. Unless there is a Bursa query or a request from someone with proper locus standi (S & P, if this word is too big for you let me know) after going through proper procedures, there is no reason whatsoever to respond to the ramblings of a failed CEO and has been politician. I was told that the view is that the 2 TMs are too insignificant (a senile old man with a forked tongue and a has been rally driver that believes in his own hype) at the moment and that Proton would rather go about its business.
If anything, the 2 TMs would first have to answer some of the issues behind the purchase of MV Agusta to begin with. The fine folks here may also be interested to learn that the purchase was "tainted" to begin with, as follows:
1. The original acquisition of MV Agusta was done through Proton Capital Sdn Bhd. Would it surprise you all that the three member board of Proton Capital were at that time made up of three employees of the Proton Group that are no longer with the company. These three
are the unholy trinity that make up the apex of Proton's then management.
2. The original acquisition was subsequently submitted for ratification (Proton Capital is a shell with no real money, so need to go back to the main board) to the main board but it failed to disclose certain material facts and projected rosy future for MV Agusta. The board, despite ratifying it, still requested certain condition precedents be included to
protect Proton. These condition precedents however, were subsequently waived by the unholy trinity acting in their capacity as directors of Proton Capital.
3. One of the condition precedents waived has to do with supply of working capital to MV Agusta. As a result of this foolish schoolboy mistake by the unholy trinity, MV Agusta suffered a cash crunch. It had therefore to borrow from papa Proton. Even then, the request was approved by management (guess who) at the manufacturing and a foreign subsidiary level (these are the opeating subsis and they have some cash). The board of the holding company only got to know abt it later.
4. There were doubts about the real technological benefits of MV Agusta and its strategic fit with Proton. There were doubts of its financial as well as operating capabilities as well. However, these were all hidden, thanks to the group structure and board composition then. If you recall, one of TM sr quips when commenting on TM jr's non renewal as CEO was that the new board was convening too many meetings and asking too much info, thus "cramping his style". It was just another way of saying they were not able to hide their deeds anymore.
5. Another little known fact was that despite holding 57% of MV Agusta. Proton had no management control. A certain Mr Cocco was put in as CEO as Proton's rep. The fact of the matter is that this guy was an employee of Soc Gen who was both an adviser to Proton for the deal as well as acting as broker (what a conflict of interest). Cocco may have been the CEO, but the real power remained with Castiglioni as Chairman (and head of several divisions within the company) and his sons, who were allowed to remain with MV Agusta and paid a hefty paycheck. The shareholder's agreement entered into between Proton by TM jr also tied up Proton's hand and effectively prevented it from being able to restructure the company.
6. Following on from point no. 3, with no source of working capital and plummeting sales, there was just one way to go for MV Agusta. They tried everything, including extending credit terms beyond normal to distributors, but they could not get the volume needed as their bikes were no longer "in fashion". Stocks built up and well….
There is enough material to write a "50 Dalil" type of book of TM jr but that is just too cheap. Suffice to say the MV Agusta deal was a bad deal to begin with, dreamt up by a man that had visions of his own grandeuer and ability.
As for the personalities making noise in the forum. the two morons known as Shaymen and Paramsingwalia clearly are trying their best to overcompensate (I like that word, thanks Laetitia) for their lack of a clear head and perhaps a male tool, hence their constant sniping (bitching is more like it) and homophobia (I am tempted to say these two are probably closet gays by the looks of it but that would be demeaning to gays). Not only do they not know the difference between MV Agusta and Agusta Westland, they had the gall to then try deflect their ignorance when I pointed out the website for each company.They also tried to make fun of th mistake I made with respect to engines, despite correcting it well before the morons chipped in, Idid not care so much about that. The crux of the matter is the corporate issues at hand and I have not been wrong with my corporate facts. I have made references to publicly available numbers from Bursa's service for investing public while they have cooked up their own imaginary factoids.
After that, they went after Laetitia with more sexual innuendos…real class for dickheads and morons I suppose, but not good enough if you want to argue out a case succintly.I bet you feel so manly after verbally assaulting a female or in your words, an old lady. I really pity your progeny…clearly they will be blessed with your moronic charms as they grow up.
As for Laetitia, she is clearly not a Proton basher but just thinks very little of TM jr and his cohorts. She did however make a minor mistake. The name of the dealership in which TM jr has an interest in Emas….. in KB. The big huha is how it got a deal to supply roughly a few thousand units of cars (not tanks as one of the Brotherhood of Morons put it) to one of the summits held in 2004. It was not to the army. It is however well documented (Proton had, if you recall, undertaken a special audit. One of the key areas was RPT).
There are other stuff that is worth sharing like what the heck Proton is doing selling bicycles (TM jrs idea, and surely someone laughed all the way to the bank). 14,000 bikes had to be written of for obsolescence so far this year. That is a lot of unsold bikes…so much for diversification. The setting up of additional plants despite not utilising
current capacity is another schoolboy mistake. So is getting involved with a certain Datuk L, whom he appointed as distributor for Lotus in China and paid USD 1 million to help enter the Chinese market. All these show TM's lack of business acumen…he should have stuck to driving for a living. If we take a step back and evaluate what is it exactly that was positive TM jr was supposed to have done, the list, if any would be short indeed.
Alright thats it for me for now. I am off to Macworld 2006. Hopefully, both S & P would grow half a brain and learn a bit more civility by the time I visit the blog next. Unfortunately, that would probably be too much to ask.
look.. by all means i think the disposal of MV Augusta was the right thing to do.. Proton has been burdening itself with a huge mountain of debt for not much of a reason really…
Why i think it is the right decision:
1. Proton doesnt seem capable of turning the motorcycle maker around.. and its new management seems to think that reviving them doesnt seem viable. Look at Lotus, still loss making till this day after several years…
2. What sort of technology transfer does it plan to undertake? Build cars that operate on 2 wheels?
I believe TM made the wrong decision acquiring MV Augusta (and to a certain extent Lotus). For the sole purpose of technology transfer, why spend millions acquiring an ailing company and making provisions for its debts year after year .. basic business sense will tell you that you should dispense with non performing assets in your business..
IF they needed the technology boost, hire the right personnel from the respective companies instead. Certainly much more cost efficient….
TM might argue that there is a form of prestige by having own the brands of Lotus and MV Augusta, but i would disagree with this… spend your own money building up the Proton brand itself, dont try to ride on someone else's name.. it never quite worked for Proton associating itself with the Lotus brand anyway…
I somehow have the feeling that TM went ahead acquiring the 2 brands based on him having an emotional attachment to it.. and having the vast funds to do so, went ahead with them.. without thinking of better alternatives for Proton… (well this is just my tought anyway..)
All in all.. i just think that it is the right decision to dispose of MV Augusta for 1 euro.. .. you simply cant continue making the same mistakes and carry on the burden left behind by your predecessors…. in essence, i think this is a very brave decision by the new Proton management.. and in my opinion, the right one..
Jolly Roger is so accurate with his information.
korang ni tak keje ke? 24 hours reply blogs je… ckp keje power2…keje kat uk la, investment banker la.. tp tgk every 10 minutes ade reply…. panjang lebar pulak tu…mcm essay…. kalo macam ni nye pekerja… macam mana la company nak maju…….
bangun pagi, pakai baju ofis…pegi ofis… bukak blog, reply blog satu hari… bbih tu balik rumah… hampeh tul sume…hahaha
Jolly Roger says: "I honestly hope that Lotus would remain within the company’s stable for the foreseeable future. I also hope that Proton would put in a Malaysian to run Lotus as clearly the ppl they have running it on the ground right now have not done anything."
Oh how little you know. Lotus is at the cutting edge of sportscar design and manufacture after a few years of under-performing. Proton's support has enabled it to develop several new versions and new models which it was not able to do before. But put in a Malaysian to run it? It will die.
Malaysia Boleh, but Malaysians boleh't be arsed when it comes to making something work. .
Zippy said,
January 6, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
Jolly Roger is so accurate with his information.
—————————————————————-
even a schoolboy can write a fictional essay…hahaahhahaah…..show us proof la…
dando said,
January 6, 2006 @ 4:19 pm
korang ni tak keje ke? 24 hours reply blogs je… ckp keje power2…keje kat uk la, investment banker la.. tp tgk every 10 minutes ade reply…. panjang lebar pulak tu…mcm essay…. kalo macam ni nye pekerja… macam mana la company nak maju…….
bangun pagi, pakai baju ofis…pegi ofis… bukak blog, reply blog satu hari… bbih tu balik rumah… hampeh tul sume…hahaha
—————————————————————
hahahahahha…huhuhuhuhuhu…power2 kerje,siap tulis essay lagi…i agree with u…dioworang ni la yg org panggil makan gaji buta…uhhuuhuhuhuhuhu
i think betul la param cakap…that jolly bean really dont want the public to know…
i think jolly bean is an agent laa,thats why he can write so much…
maybe he's an cni agent…..huhuhuhu.
crazy jolly bean…writing an essay here longer than paul's post…oii joll bean…mau repeat SPM ka?
i think its sooo funny that some claimed investment banker here with high salary and driver bla bla still have time to write an essay here..hahhahahhahhahahahhah…………………………………………………..jolly bean…u should be a writer for star trek or something since fiction is ur strong points…hahahhhahahahhaahhahahah
paramsingwalia said,
January 7, 2006 @ 9:58 pm
i think its sooo funny that some claimed investment banker here with high salary and driver bla bla still have time to write an essay here..hahhahahhahhahahahhah…………………………………………………..jolly bean…u should be a writer for star trek or something since fiction is ur strong points…hahahhhahahahhaahhahahah
————————————————————
waaahhhh,someone who goes to work with a driver,writing an essay here ahh…..hahahahahahahahaha.got lots of time huh?
thats why la i think he's a cni agent…kaya sebab main skim cepat kaya looo….hehehehehehe.goyang kaki la youuu….
cant wait for jolly roger next essay…ok murid jolly roger …cikgu suruh buat karangan pasal why we should sell sayur to jepun and jepun sells everything else to us?
and the next essay is why i think laetitia hubby is gay?
i think i wanna say this la to those two TM……"kerrrrrjaaaaa sama sayaa,bukan untuk..uhuk,uhuk,uhuk,uhuk..sayyyyyaaaaa".
hahahahahahahahaha…..those two TM tak pernah dgr that words ka?
shaymen said,
January 8, 2006 @ 5:01 pm
i think i wanna say this la to those two TM……â€kerrrrrjaaaaa sama sayaa,bukan untuk..uhuk,uhuk,uhuk,uhuk..sayyyyyaaaaaâ€.
hahahahahahahahaha…..those two TM tak pernah dgr that words
——————————————————————————————————–
maybe the coughing guy should buy a cough syruo by cni agent..jolly bean.cni product very good..see how rich and got lots of free time to take SPM one more time..
weiii mr param….ur on my side or not?
i didnt hear u say that words with me…
kerja sama sayaaaaa …
bukan untuk saya…uhukkkkkkkkk uhuk uhuk terkentut..
when proton was promoting about it's platform,before the introduction of gen 2 ,I predictate that the direction of proton was to be somewhat like bmw and honda. producing car,motorcycle,bicycle and engineering services.but since his ouster,i predict that proton will be no more by 2007 or 2008. say la vie proton.
die halfway thru my friend….stupid people with no vision just wanna be salesman…big commission
dafi said,
January 8, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
———————————————————–
la vie en rose………..
Stop commenting out of the topic.
since the proton management in such a selling mood; later maybe they'll selling zongtwi's working place, why dont the gov sell proton to these two TMs, abis cerita….see how it goes….
duhhhhh…just let the board explain la..
First and foremost, regarding the management, how could they decide that they are capable of turning around Augusta. Their record in marketing Proton outside Malaysia is dismal. Proton cars could be sold only to a captive market of Malaysia by putting all the competion in a difficult position to sell in Malaysia. If they had a good record of selling Proton Brand cars outside Malaysia against all the competition as like the other International brands then we can understand the logic of purchasing Augusta at more then 300 Million and then turning them around.
Hence i find this full argument baseless and has got no ending.