While reading the NST sometime last week, I spotted this column by Rehman Rashid, on the breakdown of the Proton and Volkswagen talks. It was a very pro-Proton column, but there was this one paragraph…
And then there’s India, home of Mahindra, Maruti, Bajaj and the Ambassador – and a 300 million-strong middle class with fewer than 15 cars per 1,000 people and 10,000km of new toll roads being built. It’s easy to imagine rebadged Perdanas, Gen.2s and Personas in New Delhi, Chennai and Mumbai. Volkswagen or GM can’t build a car for under RM20,000 to match any of them.
Sadly, neither can Proton… not in it’s current state and not for a long time. And neither can many Indian manufacturers! While it’s true that Volkswagen and GM are having troubles building a cheap car at those kind of prices (perhaps why Volkswagen was interested in any kind of tie-up with us at all to begin with, some say Volkswagen wanted the upcoming New Proton Saga to be its new cheapest car positioned under the Volkswagen Fox), I don’t think the Perdana, the GEN2 and the Persona can be produced and sold in India for under RM20,000 either. One only needs to look at the prices of those cars in our local market to know.
So let’s jump back to reality abit shall we? Everyone who cares about the automotive industry, or has a responsibility to say something about the national concern of the week has commented on the Proton-Volkswagen talks, and all of them – including the big man Syed Zainal himself – have been saying China and India are integral parts of Proton’s turn-around plans.
Proton has already made some in-roads in the Chinese market – a rebadging deal with Jinhua Youngman. An interview with Syed Zainal in StarBiz reveals how that deal came about – Jinhua Youngman (a Chinese coach and truck maker) originally went to Lotus and asked them to design a car for them. It was suggested that Jinhua do a badge engineering deal with Proton instead, since the cars were already there. It seems Jinhua Youngman has already managed 1,500 bookings before the car is launched.
But India is a market in which Proton does not have a presence in yet. Is India a perfect match for Proton and the models it has? Rather than just imagine… let’s take an analytical look at the situation in the Indian market.
INDIA: Current Industry Sales Figures and Growth Potential
India has only 12 motor vehicles per 1000 persons, whereas China has 10 and Malaysia has a staggering 641! That makes us the 3rd most saturated country in the world behind the United States (765) and Luxembourg (686). In comparison, Japan has 543 and the United Kingdom has 426. [1]
Admittedly, the term “motor vehicles” also include two wheelers and not just passenger cars, but this is also the case for India. For Financial Year 06-07, 77% of India’s total industry volume comprised of two-wheelers. The remaining comprised of 1,076,408 passenger cars (14%), 220,199 utility vehicles and 83,091 MPVs. This is a huge amount of vehicles, and the 14% figure only stands to grow as many Indians slowly graduate from two wheelers to cars.
The potential is huge considering as India’s GDP goes up, the market for motor vehicles will increase tremendously. According to Global Economics Paper No. 99 by Goldman Sachs [4], China’s GDP would be exceeded Germany by this year, and Japan by 2015 while India would do the same by 2020 and 2030 respectively. Emerging markets that are considered “old news” in the automotive industry include Brazil, Russia and China. These markets are expected to decline in growth from 2015 onwards, while India is expected to continue showing stable growth. [Source]
INDIA: Penetration Potential and Government Policies
The Indian automotive industry is seen to be “friendlier” as compared to the China. According to a Japanese analyst source, many Japanese vendors are now looking for an “India Plan”. More and more are turning away from China because of cases like the much publicized GM vs SAIC legal case over the Chery QQ, allegedly a clone of the Chevrolet Spark.
The Indian government also has initiatives like the National Highways Development Project (NHDP), and has committed RM 274 billion to the NHDP under the 11th Five-Year Plan. Malaysian companies like UEM and IJM are already in India, working on these highways, roads and flyovers. A clear sign that India is serious about improving its country’s transportation.
Of course, the highways are no use without motor vehicles, and for that India has a clear “Automotive Mission Plan” that covers the years 2006 to 2016. This plan was prepared by the Ministry of Heavy Industries and Public Enterprises of the Government of India and outlines automotive industry investments of up to US$40 billion (RM 135 bilion) over the 10 years. The plan also focuses on exprts, with a 25-point plan. While obviously requiring more consistency and notice period before changes are made (manufacturers are asking for a minimum of 2 years before and major alterations are made), the plan gives investors a lot of confidence. There will not likely be any sudden random changes in policies, something that are unfortunately getting familiar with.
From a Malaysian perspective, the legal system could possibly be easier to understand as Malaysia and India were both former British colonies and are still Commonwealth members. Communication would also be easier, in English if the Malaysian/Indian accents dont distort discussions and negotiations. Lastly, as is Japan, Australia and New Zealand, India is a right-hand-drive country whereas China is LHD. This means less re-engineering cost for the new market.
INDIA: The Big Players
Sales Matrix – Indian Passenger Cars for August 2007
| No | Model | Sales | Delhi Price (lakh) | Length |
| 1 | Suzuki Alto | 17,816 | 2.59~3.13 | 3495 |
| 2 | Suzuki Wagon R | 11,748 | 3.56~4.04 | 3520 |
| 3 | Hyundai Santro | 11,699 | 2.94~4.59 | 3565 |
| 4 | Tata Indica | 11,396 | 2.75~4.58 | 3675 |
| 5 | Suzuki Omni | 7,793 | 2.45~2.47 | 3370 |
| 6 | Suzuki Swift | 7,576 | 4.36~5.56 | 3695 |
| 7 | Suzuki M800 | 5,480 | 2.16~2.38 | 3335 |
| 8 | Suzuki Zen Estilo | 4,596 | 3.52~4.07 | 3495 |
| 9 | Toyota Innova | 3,910 | 8.16~11.35 | 4555 |
| 10 | Mahindra Scorpio | 3,418 | 8.07~9.54 | 4325 |
Source: Autocar India, October 2007
Above are the sales charts for the Indian passenger car market in August 2007 alone. As you can see, Maruti Suzuki India dominates the Indian market with their Suzuki-badged cars, and the Maruti-Suzuki M800 is just about the only car that is priced under RM20,000 (Rs 2.16 lakh is about RM18,500). Yet it is not the top selling model, which shows that the Indian market is maturing – the 1983 Suzuki M800 is OLD and no one wants to be stuck with a stone age car. They want something fairly modern, and stylish even, but being economical in terms of both fuel consumption and initial purchase cost plays a huge factor.
What Is The Ideal Indian Car?
Like I said, fuel economy and initial purchase cost are huge factors for the current Indian car buyer. Petrol in India costs 49.49 rupees (RM4.07) per litre, and diesel costs 32.45 rupees (RM2.78) per litre. As evident from the top 10 sales list, except for number 9 and 10 which is an MPV and a 4X4 respectively, India needs small cars. It would also be ideal if the car had a diesel powertrain, especially if you want to introduce a larger sedan-bodied model. A diesel variant is a must have if Proton were to enter the Indian market, and from what I hear there are certain Proton prototypes with third party-sourced turbodiesel units already. Manual transmission is a must as Indian motorists seem to want to save every single drop of fuel they can.
The Best Way To Enter India
The obvious way is to tie-up with a company that already has a nationwide sales and service network in India, and a gap in the company’s product line-up which allows Proton models to be slotted in. This will provide Proton a quick entry into India.
Maruti Suzuki is out as they have their own brand to run. Tata may be a good choice, but their mainstay is commercial vehicles, although their Tata 1-lakh car and 2008 Indicar/Indigo plans are interesting, as is their relationship with Fiat. Backtracking to the bit about car prices, 1-lakh rupees is about RM8,563.00, but now it seems the car might end up being 1.25 lakh instead (RM10,700). Both Hyundai and Suzuki are also working on similiar projects. Anyway, Tata has 11 variants of the Tata Indica alone, not including the Indigo, so there is definitely no room for Proton in the Tata stable.
Mahindra looks to be a perfect choice. Yes, they have a relationship with Renault to sell the Renault Logan in India, but many who’ve seen the vehicle says it feels too cheap and is put together too cheaply – this is not really in tune with maturing Indian customer tastes. The Logan’s launch in India also did not go as well as expected – not enough ready stock at launch, too high of a booking deposit, slow production, expensive diesel option, and limited variants. [Source]
Business Times reported back in April 2006 that Proton was in talks with Mahindra. In more recent news, Syed Zainal reveals in the StarBiz centerspread interview that Proton is now talking with a company that is currently in the tractors and 4X4 segment but wants to get into passenger cars. I strongly believe this could be Mahindra. Syed Zainal says the deal will be similiar to the Jinhua/Europestar deal – this could mean rebadging instead of the Proton brand being introduced there.
Where Will The Cars Come From?
CKD assembly in India is the best way to go about it because of tax/duty concerns, and the Indian partner would have a manufacturing, logistics, vendor network and system already in place. A combination of various duties – Excise, Customs, and VAT – could hike up the price of a CBU car imported into India by 60% to 100%, but for CKD pack imports it is generally about 10% only. [Source] But it’s worthwhile to note that India is currently on observer status in ASEAN [Source] – there could be a possibility of India moving to establish Free Trade Agreements with key ASEAN countries in the next few years – it already has an FTA with Thailand.
India has had an installed manufacturing capacity of 1.75 million cars annually since the year 2005, but the Total Industry Volume has not reached that amount yet, so there is plenty of capacity to locally assemble Proton cars there.
The Perfect Proton for India
Syed Zainal mentions in the StarBiz interview that Proton will be offering the BLM, the GEN.2 and the Savvy to the Indian partner. He says with the right product offerings, a car company in the Indian market could snag an estimated combined sales volume of about 200,000 units a year for 2 to 3 cars, which should be possible if one of cars gets onto the top 10 list (refer August 2007 sales table above).
India divides passenger cars into different segments, from A1 to A6. There are four Lower A2 segment cars on the top 10 list – the Suzuki Zen Estilo, the Suzuki Alto, the Suzuki Wagon R and the Hyundai Santro. India defines a Lower A2 segment car as a car between 3490mm and 3650mm in length. Then there is the Upper A2 segment which measures between 3650mm to 4000mm long – represented on the top 10 list by the Tata Indica and the Suzuki Swift. Longer than the Upper A2 segment is the Lower A3 segment, which measures between 4000mm to 4200mm and includes cars like the Ford Ikon and the Tata Indigo, but none of them are on the top 10 best seller list.
By just looking at the types of cars that are on the list, you know you need an excellent Lower A2 or Upper A2 segment contender. Proton has two cars that could fit into what India considers an A2 segment car – the Proton Savvy (3710mm) and the upcoming Proton BLM, which could fall in either the Upper A2 or Lower A3 segments.
If the BLM follows the Persona’s foot steps, it will end up being a rather decent car. I believe if the kinks are ironed out of the Campro’s strange torque curve (through the variable intake module perhaps?), the BLM and a Campro-equipped Savvy could be better cars than cars like the Hyundai Santro (we know this car as the Atos here in Malaysia). Proton has cars with modern styling and up to date interiors. What we don’t have right now is a diesel – one of the lasts bit of the ideal recipe.
Small hatchbacks in India are preferred and retain value better compared to three-box sedan cars. One reason could be because sedans in India are more expensive compared to hatchbacks on initial cost – the opposite of what’s happening in Malaysia and around the world where hatchbacks are seen as a sporty lifestyle choice and command a higher price – just look at the Honda City vs the Honda Jazz here in Malaysia. The other factor is the fact that a smaller hatchback is simply preferred in the very busy streets of Indian towns. A hatch simply takes up less street real estate and parking space.
But this doesn’t mean a small sedan will not work in India. For a case study, we can have a look at the Suzuki Esteem 1.3L, which is about 4095mm x 1575mm x 1395mm in dimension. According to the little guesswork I did which I demonstrated below, the Proton BLM should be nearly equal to the Suzuki Esteem in length – an estimated 3975mm to 4050mm length – (to make up for the angle in the photo) so it could either be an Upper A2 car or a Lower A3 car.
You can try doing your own guess-timation calculation on how long the BLM is – the pixel values above will not tally if you measure the image because I did it with a larger image then resized it down to fit this site. Plus the image is actually taken at an angle so it would not be accurate. I assumed the BLM would use the Savvy’s platform and not an extended one, so the same wheelbase would apply.
It could be that the Suzuki Esteem is not doing that well in India because it appears to be an old workhorse, and is not so palatable compared to the newer Wagon R, Zen Estilo and other “newer” models. The BLM will offer a “fresher” Lower A3 sedan choice.
So to answer the question – what is the perfect Proton for India? In this case, the answer would be the Savvy and the BLM, and priority should be to get the cars locally assembled in India as fast as possible.
But the danger with this could be having the Proton or Proton-badged marque be associated with cheap cars forever – a problem that Maruti Suzuki is facing right now. Competitors like Honda and Toyota took a different approach – enter with the more expensive models to build the brand, then move downmarket with cheaper offerings.
Price point is also something to ponder about – assuming the BLM is RM32,000 here in Malaysia, that would translate to about 3.7 lakh rupees. Seems pricey considering most of the models on the top 10 list start from under 3.0 lakh rupees. But then again as I’ve mentioned before it is normal for sedans to have a premium over hatches in India.
Last but not least, with the possibility of India-ASEAN FTA’s being put into place in the not-too-distant future, it would be very good if Proton develops vendors for specific items in India, to cater to regional or global (if I could be so bold as to use that word) Proton production. It would meet the spirit of the CEPT where countries agree to lower import duties while exchanging a roughly equal value volume of components. An added bonus, to take a page from what the Japanese manufacturers like Toyota and Honda are doing, is to use these ‘roots’ in each country to show evidence to the government that the manufacturer is not just there to make a quick buck but has developed local vendors and is serious in creating export opportunities for the host country and/or state.
A wishlist for India-bound Protons: models must have retractable electric wing mirrors because of the danger of two wheelers accidentally clipping the wing mirrors off. The wing mirror mount should also allow for the mirror to detach easily when forced to break without damaging the car body. Ideally the car body could employ a similiar material to the Nissan X-Trail’s fenders which are dent-proof when it comes to little bumps and knocks. This material could be used in key body parts like fenders, like on the X-Trail. Again, something to cope with the huge amount of two-wheelers there. That way Proton (or Mahindra perhaps, if a rebadging deal is done) can claim the new car is designed for Indian roads. ;)
And of course most importantly, a diesel engine.
SOURCES:
[1]: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tra_mot_veh-transportation-motor-vehicles
[2]: http://www.cybersteering.com
[3]: http://www.siamindia.com/scripts/custom-duty.aspx
[4]: http://www2.goldmansachs.com/insight/research/reports/report6.html
[5] http://www.indiaenews.com/business/20060706/13939.htm / Wikipedia: NHDP
[6]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5049398.stm
Looking to sell your car? Sell it with Carro.
However, as good as SZ says, India has one terrible jams, roads etc. You move like inch by inch. People honk all the time. The signal indicators have sounds which goes with it -left and right signal has different sound to warn people. Vehicles are slower than walking and annoyingly not many people are using that toll road which is huge.
Bangalore looks like Putrajaya, outside that small silicon valley area, looks like you are in another country altogether.
Depending on where the people stay (middle class), they may never need a car or if they have it they could not use it. All movements by train, pushing there. But they have a weird lunch-box packing system, not documented, but biggest in the world, not sure how they manage that without any fault whatsoever.
The only other area which I can see proton going in is to somehow convince the government-state/nation to use proton cars as the official car. Lots of handshakes to me but thats just the way I see it.
The rich are just plain rich, use Lambo’s, Range rover just like rich Malaysians.
Gen2 will never work there. What they need is something as big as possible for more than the recommended occupancy. Getting 10 people in a savvy might work.
Interesting but the question here is SPEED. If Proton takes 3-4 years to actually start selling cars in India, it won’t be a success. 2008 will see the latest Honda Accord, BMWs, etc. all coming in. Surely Chevrolet, Fiat, Honda, Toyota are all also looking into smaller, cheaper cars to break Suzuki’s dominance of the Indian market.
Wow, it looks like Paul already do his dissertation for MBA maybe? :-) I agree with Paul. He can make Naza effort to penetrate Indian market as the closest precedent studies/case study for this Proton plan to set foot in India. With help from Samy Vellu for sure, I think it will be a success. Just trying give the double rail track project to Indian company. We can ‘freely’ export or market the proton there. I agree with Paul. Indian is commenwealth company and a right hand drive car. It is easy for Proton to established here.mystvearn seem sceptical on this. Read this. Indian more than 1 billion people, just tap 1% of it. How much is it? I think proton should really make their best effort in India. Furthermore, cars which are assembled in India can easily exported to Pakistan, Bangladesh and middle east with right hand drive. China as the hub for left hand drive Proton. Turky as the hub for European supply. Malaysia as the R&D and South East Asia hub for Proton. This can work. With proper planning and execution. Stop politics, and cronisme in corporate practice. Taht’s the best.
Decent article by PT. Kudos dude.
I rather agree with you, if we offer the Indians with cheap car FIRST we’ll have trouble to change/lift the positioning later when it come to newer yet bigger sedan/saloon models. Even VW was ridiculed by many quarters when introduced Phaeton (or before when unveiled the uber car concept), let alone Proton.
The offering must be relatively cheap BUT not cheapo-looking car and everything must executed solely from business perspective not any single political one.
The car must used as benchmark is Yaris sedan or next City/Jazz or at least Hyundai i10 model.
BTW, Middle Eastern all lefthand drive country.
Savvy with butt – Proton to buntut job again.
the measurements cant be accurate since the picture is at an angle.
Paul, here are the BLM pictures without cover on the front and rear lamp. I believe this pictures capture in the factory and I like the rear lamp as it has the Korean design taste( Design by the LG CNS)
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/63bdbf01b4.jpg
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/9c54c3419e.jpg
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/0244004a47.jpg
PT: Not quite to MBA standard yet. You say that malaysia has 641 cars per 100 people. This means that based on 25 mill people, Malaysia must have over 160 million cars. I don’t think so. Even at 641 per 1000 (the usual measure), this means that Malaysia must have over 16 million vehicles. Also incorrect. Your source is VERY wrong. The World Bank has the highest rate as 539 per 1000 people. Malaysia currently has about 5-6 million cars in total therefore the rate is around 220 cars per 1000.
In terms of India and China…I would have thought that rebadging cars for sales in those markets does not build the Proton brand and therefore does not add to the long term success of the company.
Also, why is there so much interest in trying to sell Proton into overseas markets when the Company cannot make a car that is attractive enough to be a large seller in Malaysia. Surely the focus for Proton should be to limit the number of vehicle types that they make and make sure that they make those into the biggest sellers in the local market.
It seems that Proton is always keen to run before it has learnt how to walk.
freeze: you are right, its just a guess-timate. anyway the wheelbase line was also measured from an angle – having both lines at an angle will increase accuracy somewhat, but far from perfect.
under 20k ?
whao…
ieronico: i did not say cars. i said motor vehicles. and in the next paragraph i mentioned motor vehicles include two-wheelers.
and sorry, it was a typo. should be 1,000 people as you’ve pointed out.
The Saga would also be a candidate for the Indian market. With slight modifications and modernisation, they will be attractive to the Indian market. This is based on the response to a ‘revitalised’ Saga in the Malaysian market after Proton dropped prices for the Saga. With most of component costs already written down, Proton can offer the Saga at a very attractive price, especially in CKD form in India.
If India has FTA with Asean, we have a chance to drive car below RM 10K. Ha, ha, ha, ………. dream on, hopefully it will become reality!
longjaafar, SAGA, talk abou current pricing at RM 26,999.00. When BLM come into market by Jan 08 and selling below RM 30K, then the buyer get con again, Saga 2nd hand value will free fall again.
“Good luck” to those with limited budget buy a piece of milo tin on the wheel!
well, better buy milo tin with 4 wheels rather than milo tin with 2 wheels..
Thank gd proton is here to offer such low priced cars so that those with limited budget that previously could only afford to ride only 2 wheels can now ride on 4 wheels..
I mean the photo was not shot from the middle point of the side view. It is from the left, so it may seem shorter than it actually is. But as you said, just a rough measurement.
Proton, please let Paul work in Proton.
Paul has the isight of the Malaysian people and the vision of what Proton should be.
God bless you Paul. Keep it up. Don’t lose faith in what you’ve believe the automotive industry in Malaysia as I did. Cheers!
yippi33 said,
November 26, 2007 @ 11:36 am
well, better buy milo tin with 4 wheels rather than milo tin with 2 wheels..
_________________________________________________________________________
actually i rather walk or use a pogo stick than sit in a proton
julianlee2 said,
actually i rather walk or use a pogo stick than sit in a proton..
if u ever been on a 2 wheels which i doubt you’ve ever (even a pogo), maybe ull be thankful sitting in a proton..
julianlee2 said,
actually i rather walk or use a pogo stick than sit in a proton..
———————————————————-
A ‘sombong’ statement from a sombong person…
kudos to PAUL.
ur blog just went another notch higher in my must-read-blog-list
a well researched paper.
Dear Paul,
I should not call you bro Paul instead i should call you SIFU PAUL!
Well done and i enjoyed reading every piece of your postings!
All the best to you!
Hey Paul,
Quite a nice piece of analysis you’ve done here mate. Kudos to you.
Two years ago I told everyone in this forum to give the new Proton management some time to turn around things…so far it looks like they are doing quite a decent job. If the reports are actually true (you never know, especially in malaysia) that the Proton management have requested to manage the company themselves and turn around things, I would let them do it. I’m sure they would have a decent enough business plan to penetrate the Indian market up their sleeves. All the best to them.
Big Fish:
What do you mean really by “milo tin”? It is a fact that the material that is used these days for body panels are lighter, but they are definitely stronger. The old view is that the heavier it is the stronger. That is a fallacy. Many auto companies are switching to lighter materials such as aluminium, ie for Audi and Jaguar. BMW’s suspension parts are mostly aluminium.
Kudos Paultan Tan. Very long article but worth to read .
Does this your PHD assigment :p
From pictures, i can see the BLM is very nice look model, i dont care about the engine. As long it cheap.. i will buy 1 for my 2nd car.. maybe.. let see the price first. I think it imposible to get a car below 30K for the next 2 years.
Currently, the ‘besi’/metal/steel price wouldn’t going cheap. As comparison, in the past 2 years, it’s about RM1.5K per ton, now going to reach 2.5K per ton.
Kudos to proton too.. seem they all more productive and active.. Faster movement than ever before. As somebody said, syed zainal was more in factory than his office room.
I’ll glad to see proton to bring up more money for our country beside giving to japan BILLIONS DOLLAR per year.
*but there’s 2 rubbish person spittin here. A toyota salesman and his bf maybe..
While all of this is acedemic,
Even if Proton can make a car that costs $20k RM in India, selling it there will cause a uproar here since Proton will have a tough time justifying why its sellign the same car here at quite a lot more.
Even if Proton uses old tech and rebadges the SAGA for Indian consumption, I seriously doubt they will go as low as 20k.
I dont think the government will want to try to explain itself why it is taxing even local cars so much and or why Proton insists on make “so much profit” yet subsidising exports like they do.
4G63T , i think there’s not that doubtfull.
to be mention.. my indian friend said (i dont know true or not)…
With RM50, you can support a family of 5 in India.
Key = Labour cost sooooo cheap.
RM50 per month i mean.
wah, like CSI got pixel count!
Err… Paul.. after u post this article, the proton share fall to the almost 3.82 from 4.04…
I think a lot of investor are not keen on the G move on too protecting the car manufacturer, coz also delay the open market to longer period…
Hope Proton will bang his head on the wall this time… :P
Anywayz i think the only way proton to sell a car less then RM20k is to built in China or India which have less cost… Beside’s that people are aware of fuel price raising a lot nowadays and people are changing to more economical way.. What i really hope is really a turbo diesel engine, which is also cheaper and cleaner to run now…
Good luck proton… whatever u do today will affect the day tomorrow…
guys, the whole point of proton entering india or this article has nothing to do with proton being able to price the car under rm20k. the car does not need to be under 20k to sell in india. the figure just came up from the quoted paragraph from rehman rashid’s ridiculous unfactual column. if it confuses people i might just remove the reference from the intro.
longjaafar said,
November 26, 2007 @ 3:18 pm
Big Fish:
What do you mean really by “milo tin� It is a fact that the material that is used these days for body panels are lighter, but they are definitely stronger.
———–
“milo tin” – I mean unsafe car!
bmpower said,
November 26, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
4G63T , i think there’s not that doubtfull.
to be mention.. my indian friend said (i dont know true or not)…
With RM50, you can support a family of 5 in India.
Key = Labour cost sooooo cheap.
————–
This is rumour monger to deceive fellow bloggers. With RM 50 can support 5 K. Then I want to migrate to India since my income is more than RM 1K and I can affort 72 virgin girls as my brides at 1 go?
BigFish said,
November 26, 2007 @ 5:10 pm
“milo tin†– I mean unsafe car!
_____________________________________
enough on that area already.. i think you already exhausted that topic in other threads.
i want to see more genuine ideas and constructive criticism to this discussion.. GOOD JOB PPL!!
thanks Paul for making this article easy to digest for simple minded ppl like me.
ieronico: Some additional info for you that I digged up.
Total passenger cars in operation on Malaysian roads = 7,045,466 units
Total units of everything on our roads – cars, tractors, motorcycles = 16,032,719 units
This is as of March 2007.
Proton enters India??? Are Indians easier to be conned meh???
Among Proton’s lineup, savvy and BLM probably has the best chance to sell in India…small compacts sell well there, we can see from the Suzuki success. Indian middle-class who buy mid-size sedans are very sophisticated…they know the good stuff and will buy Toyota and Honda only (Proton will be unable to con anyone there). For grass root consumers, problem is Indian carmakers are actually much better than Malaysians, Tata and Mittal are already capable of producing US$2k cars. For Proton, even US$10k cars also cannot achieve without govt subsidies. In India, Suzuki Swift is Rs4.4 lakh to Rs5.6 lakh (RM40k to RM50k)…our Suzuki Swift is RM70k to RM80k. So Proton, to enter India, will likely to do the usual thing…ask for a lot of $$ frm govt again.
Well, Proton is very desparate now…the management has performance KPI to meet and they are failing big time. Very obvious that Proton is just throwing all the shits onto wall and which one sticks. China strategy, please, the Chinese are perhaps the best in the world, better than anyone of us here. Now India strategy, please again, our Samy V can prove million times that they are really really “good”.
I think making BLM work at a competitive price will be THE major headache for them. If they want to get a foot in, they’d better be working on this NOW. I recommend locking them up in a room until they come up with something.
if want to compare the size of blm and savvy ,
-take a picture of a savvy (with 14 inch wheel) which pose at the best possible distant and angle as the spy shot,
then overlay the images until both (blm 14inch and savvy 14 inch rim) (as wheel size as a constant factor)
then perfectly overlay the simmilarly sized both car wheels,then discover that other differences would be the difference of it, interm size wheelbase ,and so on
not the most brilliant method lah, people who are good at this can try,
BigFish said,
November 26, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
This is rumour monger to deceive fellow bloggers. With RM 50 can support 5 K. Then I want to migrate to India since my income is more than RM 1K and I can affort 72 virgin girls as my brides at 1 go?—————————————-
Wah so strong?
in order to have sales at india, let us cut cost on our beloved potong cars:
no power stereng
no power window
no stereo
no aircond TOO
no back seat (install separately)
plastic bonnet
use gum to secure bumper
result: a car under 15K and most of you can afford
on the savvy picture, i think rear door is bigger than current savvy, so i think wheelbase of BLM will be in 2450mm+ , and length will be around 4100mm++
In that case, it should be assumed that the BLM will be a Lower A3 sedan.
Paul: Agree the number of motor vehicles is around 7 mill. I don’t understand the significance of the fact that there are 16 mill motor cycles; tractors etc…what does this mean for the competitiveness of Proton or Malaysia?
The real issue with being competitive in the Indian market is that Proton makes a plain-Jane, old technology, poor quality car which even then is not really cheap. It is hard to see what the marketing speil will be. This is why Proton has not been successful in any open overseas market.
The world car industry is extremely competitive, with some real big boys playing. Companies are forced to compete and if they cannot they go broke; whether they are car companies or component companies.
In Malaysia not only is the peoples money wasted protecting a marginal (at best) car company, but it is also used to protect a bunch of component companies that are under-resourced; poorly-managed; and completely uncompetitive.
Let’s face facts: the car industry of 2007 is not the same as 1985. It is driven by internationlisation and extreme competition. Proton needed to make many better decisoons in its early days. It is now too late.
India is not a viable long term option. Sure, Proton may sell a few 1000 units here and there but that is not the solution to its problems. Indian consumers already have a number of vehicles from Maruti-Suzuki that they have known for a number of years and that are quite well priced. They also have a number of other Indian producers and of course the Japanese and Koreans. What does Proton bring to the market and how much will they need to spend to get a foot-hold in the market?
The glimmer of light that Proton has at the moment because of the success of the Persona will, I believe, be seen to be a false dawn in the very near future. Frankly, Proton offers nothing to the world that cannot be supplied by a number of other companies. These companies also offer cars that are better and cheaper. I understand the “pride” issue but really do we really believe that the rest of the world will care if Proton disapears tommorrow?
ieronico:
I am not as pessimistic as you onthe future of Proton. Although there will be no foreign partner now, I’m quite sure that if there is a suitable one, Proton and the govt would agree. We do not know how the negotiation went, but I’m quite sure VW asked for too much. I would, if I know that I’m negotiating from a position of strength.
In the case of the Indian market, with growing affluence and increase in population, India’s economy may outstrip even the US in 50 years’ time. So there’s a vast opportunity out there. Besides quality, marketing and product suitability is of prime importance. Many good brands such as Simca, Borgward and even Rover went down because of poor marketing. They were good cars but customers could not appreciate it. On the other hand models like the latest incarnation of the Fiat500 has captured the imagination of car buyers and is expected to rescue the Fiat brand from disaster, because of slick marketing. So don’t write off Proton just yet.
Longjaafar: I think you miss the point. No doubt the Indian market will continue to grow (as will China) and they will both demand more vehicles. The question is: what can Proton offer that others cannot do better and cheaper.
For instance, this is the price of a range of vehicles at the moment in Australia :they have no National pride to protect (prices from the web)
Toyota Yaris. 2 door, manual, 80kw AUD 16990
Honda Jazz VTi. Manual AUD 18170
Hyundai i30. 2dr, manual, 85 kw AUD 20490
Kia Rio. Manual, 82 kw AUD 16990
Proton Gen 2. Low line AUD 18990
Faced with these prices, what would you buy? Not the Proton, I am sure.
So how does Proton compete in overseas markets where it does not have the government to support it?
Of course VW bargained hard. The only thing they want and the only thing that Proton has that has value is the new manufacturing plant. Apart from that: nothing
Why would they not ask for control: the various people in control of Proton over the last 20 years have obviously not been successful, so why would VW agree to let the same people continue to run the company into the ground (with VW money to play with)?
Let’s face reality. Until we are honest about the situation, we can never expect to make the right decisions for the future.
Oleh kerna ada permintaan nk tahu interior blm ni, saya jelaskan. Steering, aircon blower, inter door handle mcm Savvy, meter dia pun sama mcm Savvy cuma roundnya warna crom. Dashboard sebelah penumpang depan ada tissue holder mcm Savvy.Ada glove box. Ada 5 cup holder. Gear manual and auto mcm persona. Single CD 1-Din Player.
N-Line – Manual Saja. Color Solid White only
Bumper depan belakang, Side Mirror Black and meter panel color Hitam. Rim 13 cuma pakai center cap.Tak ada reverse sensor, tak ada airbag, tak pre tensior, speaker 2 dibelakang.Harga Tentative price RM33,+++
Base-Line, sama seperti N-Line cuma tambahan ada manual dan auto. ada 3 color metallic. Bumber depan belakang, side mirror body color. 4 speaker depan belakang. Meter warna crom. Rim14 dgn full cover. Tentative price RM34K – RM37K.
M-Line sama seperti Base Line ada manual n auto, 4 warna, 3 metallic, 1 warna solid white,ada alloy rim size 14.Single airbag, ada pre tensioner seatbelt, vanity mirror, elec door mirror, door handle body color, garnish warna hitam. Tentative price RM37K – RM39K.
Logo Proton atau emblem skrg sudah berubah dari segi warna.Tiada lagi warna orange pd kepala harimau. Sudah ditukar kepada warna crom.
Gambar interior sy minta maaf tak boleh pamir. Sy tak blh menjangkau jauh dari penerangan yg boleh sy jelaskan.Harap ini dapat membantu kawan2 yang ingin mengetahuinya. Qualiti, sy boleh kata, klu yang kata persona dh improved quality, blm ini lebih lagi. Thks.
Heres sumore infos…
Akan dilancarkan insyaallah pada hari jumaat 11 Januari 08. Comfortable, Affortable, Practical and Simply Design.Length 4257, width 1680, High 1502. High dan width kurang dari Myvi skit je….Saiz Luggage compartment 413Ltr. Full tank 40lts.Engine redesigned Campro IAFM, maksudnya ada sistem tambahan iaitu Intake Air Fuel Module.
Ada 6 colour. 2 solid color iaitu putih dan merah. 5 colour metallic iaitu, Genetic Silver, Mountain Blue, Zircon Green, Tranquility Black, Grey. Ada 3 Variant model, N-Line ni lowest spec, Base-Line and Medium Line. N-Line cuma manual saja dan ada satu color solid white je.Base-Line dan medium-line ada manual n auto.N-Line 175/70 Rim13 dan center cap, Base line 185/60 rim14 full cover dan Medium Rim14 alloy. Saiz 2.6 kali besar dari Viva dan 83% dari Myvi.Maximun power 70/6000 94bhp, Max torque 120/4000. Fuel save giler…. 0.11 sen per km atau 100km 5.5sen per km utk manual dan 6.0sen utk auto per 100km. 3 years or 150km Factory Waranty yang mana datang dulu… Tengoklah dan lihatlah akan perkembangan proton kini…….. ok le… panjang2 nanti u all penat nak membaca lak kan. Saya khabou ini utk tujuan kita smua fikirkanlah, proton sudah berubah, maka inilah hasilnya.Percayalah….tiada niat yang tak baik. Kiranya anda nak keta lain yang sama segment dgn BLM fikirkanlah model ini. . Jika kawan2 ingin maklumat lanjut, khabou le ye….
longjaafar may have a point and I will conceed his optimism, however, in terms of Marketing, Proton isn’t exactly very strong either. Sure it does have “Lotus” but will the indian market really need “Lotus handling”? Any up and coming capitalist economy will have individuals with money that aspire to brand names. The question will be, will the “haves” aspire to a Proton?
In emerging markets (or any market for that matter), a new player will either have to be very cheap or very good (usually not both). Proton has neighter which makes for a tough fight. Proton doesn’t have the economies of scale to make cheap cars, and lack the technology knowhow and “brand snob” to make “good” ones.
Proton has been trying to play the cheap and affordable (japanese technology) card at established markets like UK, aping the market models once played by the Japanese and the Koreans that followed. What with now loosing the “japanese technology card”, it has even less to play with. Sure the GTI was popular, because it was technically Japanese, cheap and has a nice niche that was once the Golf GTi’s play field. But what does Proton really have to offer that others can’t? The point is, what is Proton’s competitive advantage. I can’t really see any if you ask me.
Perhaps the Persona has buoyed Proton’s ego, but it might end up as a short term victory.
The indian Market isn’t a void. Other more established manufacturers will have a even bigger selection of cheap models to flood the indian market.
I have doubts about Proton and the indian Market. More likely, as we have already seen, Proton may yet again play the Islamic card for markets in Pakistan, Iran and the like. That is probably where its going to get the better market share….which unfortunately is probably its only “competitive advantage”.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/0332175.htm
Remember this http://paultan.org/archives/2007/03/07/proton-and-lotus-engineering-develop-proton-gen2-eve-hybrid-concept/
+ ZAP
indians arent that stupid
4G63T DSM:
Point taken. But if, like you say, Proton is going to ‘play it’s Islamic card’, then I have only one word to describe it : suicidal! Even fanatics are discerning when buying things, especially big ticket items.
I believe that Proton can bring costs down further, especially for the Saga, and sell them in India. The jigs and dies and a host of other equipments would have been written off so cost of production would be less. Moreover, the Indian market has ‘endured’ the Morris Oxford for decades. Anything more modern than that stands a fighting chance to survive.
The Indian market is a LOT more matured now. The old Suzuki M800 has been declining steadily in terms of market share. Putting in the Saga won’t boost confidence in Proton products IMHO.
longjaafar, be more realistic!
http://www.malaysia-today.net/nuc2006/letter.php?itemid=583
long jaafar must be stuck in malaya for a long time
campro cps in facelift gen 2 shown in thailand,
nobody drive proton in thailand, they have toyota, nissan, kia, honda, wtf they need proton 4? for those semi value mind ppl
Has there been any great sales success (in terms of market share) of Proton export market (in it past 20years of operation) that they can boast about it… It should be coming soon from the new CEO.
Youngman going to take 1,500 unit to test the market response, can’t wait to hear the outcome. Nice to have news about how many 3S (sales, service & spare parts) outlets of Youngmang or a reporter forget to ask that question during the interview..
Here some interesting sales and production statistics of China automobile industry as of June 2006.. latest report required subscription (username and password)… it need hacking (using Oracle database..).
There is too many of data for me to digest …maybe someone in this forum can shield light where does 30,000.00 proton cars fit in..
http://www1.autoinfo.gov.cn/en/Sample/index.htm
Car sales by Brand (as of June 2006)
http://www1.autoinfo.gov.cn/en/Sample/html/ppcx.htm
stupuid potong
I am apalled by the racist and patronising comments that i read in this blog. Much as this may dissappoint a few ignorant guys, I dont think that Indians associate malays with anything except boomiputra policies where, a few jobs have to be given to lazy malays and indians and chinese work !
Pls keep your proton within your borders, or sell it to the pakis or arabs. I dont think its going to last long here. And FYI, we dont endure teh Morris anymore, we have better cars than what you guys have there and growing. The only thing that youall do right is grow palms. Go at it guys !