This is a story on what happens when you do not manage your outsourcing properly.
I just got back from an extremely tiring day at work thanks to Dell.
My company does system integration and development as well as provide IT support services. A client of ours just ordered a new Dell laptop with us helping in the purchase process. The order was worth more than RM10,000 and included a 19″ LCD monitor, a Dell D410 notebook and a docking station. (I recommended IBM but the client insisted on Dell!)
The first problem came when somehow the sales personnel forgot the order included a docking station.
“Oh you want a docking station ah?”
“Yes, it says right here on the order.”
“Oh okay.”
After the sales personnel finally “believed” we ordered and paid for a docking station, the item was built. We requested that the goods be shipped before Friday as the country manager wanted to take the laptop on a trip. He was flying off on Friday morning to visit remote sites. Normal lah, oil and gas industry.
This was a week ago. The days passed by and it was Wednesday. The next problem. The notebook is ready and has been shipped to the depot in Shah Alam. But the delivery person might not be able to deliver on time. Fine, we said we’ll collect it from Shah Alam ourselves.
On Thursday morning, we find out the notebook has already been shipped out and will reach the client’s office at Jalan Tun Razak at around 4:30. We were told we would be called when they arrive.
4:30 came, still no call. No sign of the delivery person. 5pm. 6pm. Still no sign. We were getting pissed off. We had to setup the laptop and they were wasting our time.
Suddenly we got a call. The courier company told us that there was something wrong with the delivery truck driver and the notebook could only be delivered tomorrow. We insisted that we needed the notebook today. Then the courier company told us the truck driver just admitted himself into General Hospital because he had a heart attack or something. The courier company said if it was really urgent we could go over to the GH and take the goods from the truck.
At this moment, I was thinking could things get any worse? Life shoved the answer in my face later.
So we left the office at 6:30pm from Jalan Tun Razak and struggled through the jam to General Hospital which was actually not too far away.
We were trying to call the delivery person throughout our journey there. His phone seemed turned off. The courier company could not contact him either. Once we reached GH, he finally picked up the phone. Not bad for a guy who just got a heart attack. He sounded fine!
“Where are you? We’re at GH now.”
“Oh, I just left GH.”
“WTF? You left GH? Where are you now?”
“I’m on the highway.”
“Stop wherever you are, we’ll come and get the notebook.”
“Oh oh, cannot I didn’t drive the truck. I’m in my car.”
“In the car? Where are you? Where’s the truck? Hello? Hello?”
The bastard cut our line off.
We called the courier company. None of them knew what was happening. Both the courier company and Dell were very apologetic but none of them knew what was happening and how to contact the guy who was driving the truck.
The courier company that Dell had outsourced the delivery to had apparently outsourced delivery to another smaller courier company. Communication between all three parties were terrible. The only people who knew the big picture was us, the dudes who were suffering waiting around for nothing and driving through all the jams on a wild goose chase.
Dell said they would speak to the courier company.
The courier company said someone was coming over to open the truck and pass the goods to us. They gave us the contact of the seconded courier company. We gave them a call.
The seconded courier company said no one was coming.
We called the courier company again and told them the seconded courier company said no one was coming. They said they would sort it out for us.
We were waiting at the mamak. Making alot of phone calls. Maxis must be happy.
Anyway time passed and we got fed up. At 8pm when we were about to leave, the courier company called and told us don’t leave as someone was coming over. They gave us contacts to call. We called the contact.
They said they were already at GH for quite some time and were looking for the truck. WTF? I thought you said no one was coming over?
They said they couldn’t find the truck. They described the truck to us and we helped them search. We drove all around the General Hospital trying to find the truck. Searched the sides of the roads and every parking lot. Nope. Nothing. Did the truck driver drive off with the truck? Who knows how much worth of notebooks and computers were in there.
We got fed up. Went back to the client’s office around 830pm. We admitted defeat, and the country manager said he would have to make do with an old laptop that was a hand-me-down for his business trip. We considered the case closed for today.
At roughly 10pm, the courier company called. They found the truck. Delivered it to my partner’s house as no one was at the client’s office.
Apparently the truck driver never got a heart attack, and never went to GH. The courier company went around searching his known addresses and found him. Since the truck left the depot in Shah Alam in the morning, he has been at his aunty’s house somewhere. He did not deliver any of the Dell goods.
Basically because one person didn’t feel like working and curi tulang, we spent the whole day on a wild goose chase. Wasted plenty of petrol. Wasted alot of money on phone bills. It also costed the client support fees for after-office hours work. Gave Dell a headache and a big mess to clean up. We were not the only ones who didn’t get our order. Like a big screwed up domino effect.
I was told there was about 20 orders in that truck and none of them got delivered. Not sure as I wasn’t there. That should be around 100-150K ringgit worth of Dell products. Some of them were big long-term clients of Dell.
I suppose Dell has alot of patching up to do with the affected corporate clients after today’s mess. Apparently this is not the first time it’s happened… why are they still using the troublesome seconded courier companies? But I have to admit Dell and the courier company was trying their best to sort out the mess that the courier company made. The courier company should compensate appropriately.
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i had never trusted Dell, i have been hearing too many complains from too many person bout Dell, It seems that they are slacking more n more. They are good in pushing the responsibility to others, for god's sake its your own bloody sub contractor! call them yourself! sort out the problem! its not your customer's problem its YOUR problem! damn … they even got the guts to ask u to call the courier company yourself huh ? thats totally sickening! … now u ever wonder why Dell sounds alot like Diao ?
thats the problem with dell, thy dowant to sell products using deralers and shops,only online n delivered by courier service….if i hav a day like this,bcos of some idiot ,i will go to that company hq myself n make huge noise,otherwise,wen thrs no ticking off,thy wont learn the lesson n get away with it….n i tot geting stuck for 1 hr on ldp was bad..!!
My, my, my!
What about sueing that lying trucker to offset your time and money, not forgetting bodily and mental fatigue of today.
Go on. It would make a precedent!
mamatd … loves justice and good governance.
mamatd: dell's relationship is with my client, not me. my client will reimbursed my company accordingly for after office hour work charges.
ka-soons: Dell did not push responsibility of handling the courier on us. we insisted on trying to get it sorted out ourselves as it would be faster so we asked for the number.
that really sucks man!!! i hope the courier company fired the bloody truck driver…and Dell terminating contract with that courier company
that's suck man…. mind to tell us what the courier company name…. ?
That's a sad case, really.
Just because of a irresponsible driver, all entities were affected. Dell has very good quality control on their products, they should perform the same in picking courier company as well.
Somehow, my Dell deal was 100% satisfaction when they sent me the LCD back in March, 05. The courirer company delivered it timely, and the follow up from Dell was excellent too.
May i ask, what do you guys actually think of Dell??? Ignoring the courier part, what you guys think of their computer, quality and after sales service???
No comment. I assembled my own PC. I seldom use laptop, either.
To me, normally( correct me if i'm wrong) the person who drive truck,lorry or what ever is very low education lavel, so the way of thinking and act is as what it is happend to paul.
dont u think this thread is a bit sensitive?
if someone who know you see this not good lo. :p
Oh man… their laptops are pitiful and their battery? cant even survive a two hour bloggin'….
hey paul,
I felt sorry for you and your company
but
Is this dell discussion should be on this Paul Tan's Raves and Rants on the Automotive Industry anyway?
(don't get mad, just asking)
a not bad company……..
giving trust to a too bad company…..
dats the consequence
haha. talking about courier services, i had a bad experience with poslaju just a few days ago. i got a notice in my house saying that they came and no one was around and ask me to call the customer service to arrange for a 2nd delivery.
so the next day i called them up, and they say that since its a credit card i'll need to call the bank. so i called up the bank and gave them my office address. i waited for a day and no one came.
the following day, i called up poslaju again and gave them the delivery number. and the damn fella told me that the delivery number does not exist!!! i told her that i just got this number 2 days ago and i haven't got the package yet! then only the stupid fella explained, "dunno la, sometimes our system down". *($&@$^@&#^^$. then u shouldn't tell me it doesn't exist right? worst thing is up to now i still haven't got it. i think i need to go get it tonight.
Tsk Tsk , Careful or you might be asked to pay a 10k bail like some people in SG did.
A Racist suck , Racism sucks big time.
What a Long story! DELL should be responsible!! Damn they should pay you the Kopi bills and give you some discounts!!
Actually most of the carrier company has the same problems.
I had a similar experienced like Paul, FedEX has the same problems. I remember my goods were delayed to be sent to overseas, About 2 days!!! They said the same story like the TRUCK in accidents…bala …balah!! Real case maybe Sleeping in the TRUCK and do nothing!
But just lucky that I didn't go to chase the Driver nor Calling him, I went to FedEX office and made complaints the day after. Let's them do the jobs for me.
Anyway, they gave me some discount upon delayed. That's why I didn't angry so much. Surprisingly this problem just happened once, maybe they wanna to keep me as their loyal customers!…HA..ha…Good service!! Complaints is IMPORTANT!! Jangan take "TAK APALAH" attitude man!!
Pity u.
Truthfully, Msian customer service S**K, big time. But we are overall friendly.
Dell is very good at keeping price low with various cost cutting measures, eliminate dealers, improving business process, strategic mktg etc. BPO ( business process outsourcing ) is a part of their strategy. The outsourcing part must be carefully trimmed in order to give a quality and exceptional products and services.
Secondly, most companies still implementing old production concept ie, TQM, Six Sigma, JIT etc. This concept emphasis more on the product and services they offer. Now, companies are moving toward the concept of "Enterprise" which emphasis on the relation between the king of the market ie "customer" and the seller/producer/enterpreneur.
In your case, definitely Dell had forget these principles and leave the stupid S courier company deals with the most treasured assets ie the customer. If they give an excellent service, fine, but if they screw up with the delivery, it will tarnished Dell's image….big time….
Customer is king…..But Paul, do you feel like a king on that day……???
Msia boleh.
i used Asus notebook, no doubt bout their services. ok, skip that. my whole office, actually, the whole corporate, 90% of them are Dell Optiplex, the rest r g4 and xSERV, and we've been using Dell for more than 5 yrs. this yr is the 1st upgrade of Dell pc, and i fink Dell's pc is nice, works well, no problems, (*ok, a few mayb, but that's just a few bugs). all this time the services of Dell is very efficient. and so i trust Dell quite well. but most of the time our IT department can tackle those problems by themselves, so we rarely wake Dell up.
not being racist, hey, even chinese like me, some also very lazy wad. what i want to say is that not only bumi workers know how to curi tulang, but other races too, juz that mayb they know of a better way to curi tulang which makes it not so obvious. :)
but in this case, i think that its wise if the courier company sake that driver, cause i don't think that driver can compensate for such a big mess. i personally don't like delays, once i ordered it, i want it immediately, that's y i build my own pc. i think i'm pretty lucky to have my Asus and ToughBook delivered to me in just a short period of time, a dy earlier than my estimated time.
Paul, you are a very good employee, willing to work OT for this kind of mess, nice one there. keep it up.
c'mon….its the courier company should be balmed since thy already have a black history in late deliveries,thy r responsible for their drivers nt the othr way around,n btw, as some guy mentioned above,this topic is nt really an automotive news! perhaps the truck impressed paul somehow! body kit all round! 30inch rims! 15.0 v12 turbo diesel!???
What's the name of the courier? I got a 90% feeling it is Nationwide Express. I had a near similar experience with them when I was expecting a high priority document. That cost me a whole day worth of time and hell lot of frustrations too. After that, I rather leave high priority delivery to DHL. Much much pricier but I have better peace of mind.
Dell!!! what's Dell, I only know IBM
Cobaan…cobaan…hey paul, didnt u think u learn abig lesson on that day. No matter how hard u tried, u just had to let things go. I think when u reached GH n bla bla bla….u should just inform ur boss n the client that DELL screw up big time and get ur company to get compansation from DELL, u might receive some free laptop instead hehehe…I know now days 10k is not big but if 100 of this cases happened in a year then how? 1mil…so I think u should push ur boss to take action on DELL and let DELL take action on the courier company after DELL lost a lawsuit from u guys…
IBM……..??? Worse….I even called the call center. They just give a very sarcastic reply….."IBM core activity is not selling PC/laptop, but merely providing solutions……"
Hehehe, wat to say, i think Ah chong shops at Low Yat will give a better customer service than those all big IT corporations……..
I don't know la… I've been using a Dell Inspiron laptop for about 5 years now and I haven't come across any major problems yet. However, as some of you mentioned earlier, it can be a problem when trying to contact the Dell Online service. This is especially so when you have a 2nd hand laptop, like me. They will ask all sorts of questions and when you can't provide the details, they will ignore your request. Mind you, this was for another battery and for the removable CD ROM, things which can't be bought store wide.
Yes, please DO NOT involve racism in this issue! Heck, with the bloody heat nowadays, ANYONE would be inclined to "curi tulang" and chill for a bit!
Paul, bro, I think you should "tiao" Dell habis habis! Its very easy for them to blame the courier. But who picked the courier? They did! It would be like me complaining to Toyota about a bad fitting part in my VIOS and they replying "Oh, we don't make them in Japan. Its made in Thailand. So its not our fault!"
I had a good experience and a bad experience with 2 different couriers:
good:
I sent something to UMW in Sitiawan by courier. The office told me the charges and said the courier would come the next day to take the letter and collect the charges. I wasn't at home, so my mom told the courier to take the letter first and come collect the cash the next day… This was in June. I'm still waiting for the fella to come collect his cash! :p
bad:
I got a call from my financier saying I was behind on a loan payment. I told them I hadn't got any documentation yet. They said they had couriered it. I told them nothing had come and it was no fault of mine. The next day they called and said the letter was returned. I had to go get it myself. They insisted on me paying interest for being late but I made enough noise to make them excuse me. Later, I go home and clean up my garden. I find the Pos Laju delivery card wedged between some pots! Hmmmm… Maybe the postman thought the dog in the house would fetch it from there and deliver it to the owner!
DHL is the best courier co……tapi the most expensive….(those goons even ask me to look for other co. if I want cheaper rates).
Lorry driver (low rank) plays the most important role, bosses can afford not turning up, kerja still can jalan, but if LORRY driver got PMS syndrome…mampus!!! ( I know as I use to deal with drivers before)
Let the Dell's management know about this.
Dell sell services, other than that, it's the same with other computers' manufacturers.
They do take serious comment about their service.
I bought a Laptop from Dell this year Feb, and it was delivered to my mum's office in JB without a glitch, the delivery person was from Dell themselves.
From what i analyse in the whole issue, the main problem here is with the inflexibility of the Dell side and the obxiously poor working ettique of the sub-courier company. Although the blame falls squarely on the courier company but the person in charge(co-ordinator) should have known the situation better than giving "don't know" as answer.
Hmmm POS LAJU, one of the worst night mare for me, they were supposed to send my credit card to me 2 months ago in JB, but then after waiting for like 4 weeks, I recerived nothing, no card, no notices…
I called the bank and they told me they will check, after one day I called again only to find out that the credit card was returned, finally I make arrangement for them to send to my office in Singapore, -___- it came in 3 days….
u hv such a bad experience.. pity u ~
anyway, i bought a dell laptop 2 months ago and ,honestly, i never suffer anything on the delivery. the truck driver did call me to arrange time schedules with me while i was working, their delivery is very limited, they can only give u a certain time period in each day, let say if u cant catch up or match wit their time, u hv to wait for the next day. but i wont mind about that because the truck driver rang me 2 days earlier before the actual delivery day that the sales personal promised me. i would conclud that if u r not hurry for the stuffs that u order from Dell, u wont suffer such bad experience. Agree ?
but i do hv somethings to comment bout the dell laptop. My dell laptop 510m seems to be functioning well now, except the stupid battery, it sucks !!!!! usually a laptop battery can stand for at least 1.5-2 hours or even more, while my battery can only stand for less than 1 hour !!! somebody said that i hv over charged the battery but i dont really agree wit what they said. one more thing is bout the internal bluetooth.. i'm hving problem in receiving data from other devices (like hp, PDA, other pc) but the weird thing is i can stil send data via bluetooth to other devices. i gone through many methods to solve this problem but it stil not working. i rang to dell service centre(australia) to look for help but nobody answer me… shit !!
overall i'm quite satisfy wit my laptop, cause laptop is very unstable n easy to break down, in contrast of my laptop n my friends'laptops, i reckon than my laptop is working better then their laptops (asus, toshiba), n it is cheaper!!. some of u may argue that the performances of the laptop may vary due to other factors n other circumstances, yeah.. it is true. but i'm satisfy wit my dell laptop now. true
Cool down Pet, dont F**K Dell, the USB port ain't big enuff to accomodate your C**K……..hehehe………
Apa pasat mau garang-garang……chill man…..chill & slide……..
Dell suxx. But I love Dell.
Refer Dell Hell
i'm working with Trasporter for Dell,actually in this case (pls refer DELL HELL)
i'm the one who spoke to cust.But i never ask him to pick-up the system by himself,i only inform tht the driver will send the goods to cust a little late bcoz we have some prob with the driver.The CUST GIVE ME A SUGGESTION,WHY NOT HE COLLECT THE GOODS HIMSELF since HE NEED IT URGENTLY.I inform him tht i hv to ask my leader about it,then i'll get back to him again.After asking my leader,she said IF CUST AGREED to do so,he can collect the goods by himself.
actually our site handling the case & looking for solution until 11pm,no one know tht we are doing all the best to make the delivery happends by tht night also.Unluckly,somebody backstabbing at us,saying tht we didn't do our work but we have tried our best to make all of the cust happy.
Nevermind,we know tht every people hv different character. They can say whatever they want & they can blame who ever they want.NEVERMIND,GOD's KNOW WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING.
We already apologize to customer due to some circumstances that might occur during deliveries, and since we might not know what happen in future…we are trying to help to make any delivery posibble and to make customer satisfied.
hopefully that all of us can understand what actually is happening before blaming one another….eventhough all this may not disturbing our relationship between us, customer, dell, U??
Thanks for choosing Dell !!!
Ja: No one said you guys were not doing your work. You followed up with the process very well and I know there was nothing you guys could do about it until the driver could be found.
I also did not say that you forced us to come collect the notebook from the depot. I made it clear that it was our own choice.
wah, an excellent supply-chain mgmt disaster story. hope your client can claim from Dell.
just for info, i am using a Dell Latitude D410. no issues except for the supplied AV slowing down WinXP. changed that and semua ok liao. almost 4 hours of battery time. initially had some minor issues with their ordering as they missed out some of the upgrades i wanted but were sorted out fairly easy b4 delivery. all the PCs in my company are Dell and all photocopy and fax machines are Canon. hahaha, you could say we are extremely dependable on these two!
paul,
hope tht u'll forgive us for the inconvience tht happend to ur order.
Corrective Action is needed in order to prevent this from happening.
I strongly believed Feedback from client are the best idea to improve.
Think if a unsatisfied customer decided not to do complaint?
this mean the company will lost a cutomer.
Think of if this continue to happen…
I think the root of the problem is at the courier company's side.
It's really intriguing to see so many people putting a blame on the MANUFACTURER.. *shakes head*
I guess it's obvious that the fault lies with the courier company. Thanks, Paul, for letting everyone know about it.
May we know who selected the courier service provider?
Cos we customer are powerless to choose the courier service provider.
what have Dell done in oder to prevent this matter from happen in the future?
I undersand that Dell alwas deliver to customer in short lead time.3-4 days??
Bt if there is no corrective action , will this add a black mark to the fast delivery that Dell offer to their high expectation customer in the future?
Sigh~~~~~ just want to know whether the driver know how serious if the goods not deliver to customer on time. Those courier company must start thinking out a test or a way on how to hire a better and responsible delivery guy. Dell reputation recently not good. This i'm already know among my friends that work in IT or computer industry field. Today i'm only know more futher detail from paul. Dell vili need to take some action regarding this. Customer care service is the primary concern and Not the products first. Dell~~~~sigh~~~~~ hope you can notice how serious u are~~~~~
Paul,i am very emphatic with your bad history buying a dell notebook.Don't blame dell 100% and write a formal latter to dell customer service tell them of what you disspointed.I am sure they will rectify their problem and i hope this could not be happen anymore to others dell customer. For your info, until now i already sell dell pc and notebook total amount is more than 16million ringgit to large gov. agency and i am very satified with thier after sales service and ontime backups for system breakdown.
I have to agree that the driver should be saked for causing all this problems. So sad to say that's Malaysian attitude problem.
I came across similar problem you faced if not as stressful as yours. Sometimes agao, I've ordered a notebook and told Dell Sales that I needed it in 3 days time. Just a notebook anyway. Will it be possible to be delivered by then? The Sales person without hesitating told me that no problem. (i guessed they might have sales target to meet). On the third day, at about late morning I called the sales person to double confirmed but I found out that my notebook has jst been shipped out on the very day. So now how can it be possible to reach me the same day??
I would like to share some facts that I've found out.
As you mentioned, the item was shipped out on Wednesday which I believe is from Penang (Dell's warehouse located at Penang). It should only reach Shah Alam depot by midnite the same day or Thursday morning. After all the unloading process and maybe documentations stuff to be done by the courier company's staff it may takes whole morning to complete. I believe there are lots of items to be delivered out on the same day as well as URGENT delivery.
URGENT is the common word and excuses all customers like to use. Same goes to me.
How on earth you expect the items to reach you on the same day? Yes, it may happen but be prepared for delays… and I mean delay till the next day. Well, it happens to all transporter irregardless whether they are world class or not.
Secondly, one week before the incident. Dell has promised you the delivery will be done before Friday as requested.
Therefore, Dell has 1 week time to shipped your items to the depot at Shah Alam.
Why it takes them so long to shipped it out from Penang to depot at Shah Alam?
Why they commit the delivery without knowing whether its possible or not?
Who should we blame now?
I suggests, in future if you have any urgent items to order, please give Dell at least 2 weeks notice.
Akina: In this case, if I gave Dell 1 month's notice and on the day of delivery the exact same thing happened, there would be no difference.
Paul, I agreed you should write a complaints letter to the management of DELL. If DELL do no actions, Who knows someone will be the next victims!!
Hi all,
Just found this blog. Believe me or not its up to you guys. Dell does not emphasize on quality product>
Explanation:
– Dell uses 3rd grade parts from manufacturers. For example you LCD might have dead spot (black dot). By right they have to replace for you, but they dont unless it is more than 5dots. If you were to call their helpdesk, they would say it is the Ãndustrial standard'. Yes, they are right, but its the standad for 3rd grade, which you dont see in other manufacturer like HP.
– When you call up their helpdesk for problem they would run you through unnecessary process of troubleshooting which waste your time. If you did manage to convince them its a faulty part, it would be replaced by refurbished part, and not new.
– Dell practices double standard, comparing home users and companies. Companies that bought many units get replacement and service better, even after warranty time part replacement óut of goodwill' which home user will never get.
There are still many problems which you would find with their system, which i think you guys should find out yourself. I would suggest HP or any other, but if you would insist on Dell then buy their extended warranty and claim as much as its worths.
paul i think you should blame the courrier company for this…
and to other we should blame the postmalaysia for it………
why not? i had a same problem too the letter getting late these days…
my astro magazine getting late each month.Now i got that magazine by this week! wtf , what happen next month? may be i got it by end of the month for next month show……
and some times we get different address and names on the letter.
in some comment I read , I think your letter is send to diffrent address…..
e.g. 123 jalan estima taman EX but send to 123 jalan unser taman AP….
they read number olny not jalan…. names……
and my brother re-apply his mesra-realrewards cards…
then my brother starh complaintning at mesra..
the letter arrive 3 sekali gus….but 1 thing odds
1st letter it looks like 6month olds with side of that letter worn out
the rest are ok with register letter……
pelik pelik pelik
what they do to our letter inside that post office?
Hallo….where's the concept of enterprise??? If u blame the courier company, u will improve a delivery, but if u blame Dell, u will improve a brand….
Despite all this, what will be Dell/Ja next course of action…..???
Ja, do u still want to blame the courier company……???
Case study,
would u blame the mechanic at the Proton Edar service dealer for bad service or Proton Edar for appointing them as their service dealer….???
Too bad……..
blame the driver's aunt!! and all the staffs in GH!! hauhauhau
i'm going to buy a laptop but not sure which brand to choose, anyboby can give me suggestion? i want to know the quality of laptop, customer service and is it easy to get their spare parts?
***** WITHOUT PREJUDICE****
It's been almost a month since I returned a defective system to DELL Penang office. They promised me a refund cheque within a week. I am still waiting for that cheque. I'm not surprised that if I dont remind them, they will KIV my case forever.
They told me the cheque is ready but they cannot release it. I have given up calling them as they always reply with ' we shall monitor your case but the cheque is ready'. I have given up calling them and listening to that same excuse. I am in no urgent need for the refund cheque. I am just wondering if they would sit on it forever if I dont call them. First and last purchase for me as far as Dell PCs and laptops are concerned. I will never purchase another product from them.