Those who attended the World Congress on Information Technology 2008 (WCIT 2008) this week may have spotted this display by ePetrol Sdn Bhd. The ePetrol petrol kiosk is basically a way to pay for your petrol via the MyKad.
You first link your MyKad to your bank account (I assume it can be linked to a credit card as well if needed), then you use your MyKad to pay for petrol at the petrol station. The cash will be deducted from the bank account associated with your MyKad account.
The ePetrol team demonstrated a way that fuel subsidies could be controlled and given to Malaysians only. Basically, the petrol kiosk displays and charges the unsubsidised market price for petrol by default. When an ePetrol-enabled MyKad is inserted, the subsidised price will be available. The receipt shows both the unsubsidised price and the subsidy given.
This is one of the possible implementations that could change the way we fill up our tanks in the future.
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hmmmm interesting idea. but does the govt really know how much $$$ is lost due to foreigners buying petrol in M’sia? i don’t think they have a number but a simple estimate could be done…e.g. assuming x number of singaporeans drive through customs per year x RM200 worth of petrol bought in m’sia…. just a wild guess.
anyway, if this can help reduce some of the subsidy from flowing out of m’sia, then please go ahead. but please don’t charge m’sians for this!
look what i found in google cache (the original document has been removed):
http://tinyurl.com/4fdsry
look at the board of directors in EC. isn’t that RHB’s former boss? this system may indeed go live. hehe
if you ask me i would have to say that this system is the fastest way to go to implement subsidized fuel to target population. this is quite practical as almost everybody has mykad these days and most petrol station nowadays can accept credit card payment at the pump which means it shouldn’t be too costly to upgrade to this system.
of course some say that it’s open to abused but which system doesn’t anyway. when there’s a way there would always be people using some sort of loophole for personal gain
then again it’s just 1 of the many ways for the govt to solve the subsidy problem and hopefully they’ll come out with 1 that best benefit the rakyat
I will say no. It is prone to misuse by anyone who want to rent their mykad to their singaporean relative for example. And what a double standard to this company, just telling about their product to datuk2. What is the best in my opinion is, the G just give cash credited into our Malaysian 18 years old and above bank accounts. regardless what car they use. This mean, a Merc owner will also get the same as the Kancil owner. Lets say give RM600 to each of us the rakyat, it will cost RM40billion solidly into our Malaysian pocket. Instead of going on wilth subsidies fuel at the pump. This will encourage people to use public transport because they have those money to spend on if they rather use their vehicle. Furthermore, this double standard company will eventually don’t even get a chance to get our money by installing this facility around Malaysia. Think about it Shahrir. We know the crude oil is USD129 now.
the company is pretty good
the duration that they took to come up with such system since the announcement on the change in the subsidy is rather impressive
let’s hope it’s not a hangat-hangat tahi ayam thing
spend millions to implement, the find that it is not so useful, the scrap it a year later
Paul Tan: ePetrol has been doing this since 2003. that’s 5 years. their first trial run was in 2007, at a projet station in ulu klang.
Agreed. Whether it is linked to bank account or credit card, it is prone to abuse. A Malaysian can earn a decent living by being at a petrol station and use their ICs to buy petrol for foreigners. Why dont they have tax rebate system and remove the subsidy totally? For example, varying tax rebate is given to car owners with different level of annual income. They can even have a formula to tie the vehicle type to a tax payer so that whoever is using bigger car, or have many cars registered under the same name, get less or no tax rebate. For those who dont earn enough to pay income tax but own a car, they could get varying tax rebate (to their EPF or to their bank account) tie closely to the car they own. Again, this may not be perfect and need fine tuning but at least, the possibility of being abused is lower.
I am against giving cash outs… i can assure you that 600 ringgit will finish as soon as it enters the persons account… and it wont be for fuel subsidies…. and after that people will be yelling out how expansive they have to pay at the pump… and ask for more cash hand outs…
Does it mean that this system is to allow all msians to get subsidised fuel at the same rate?
This will not allow the subsidy to reach the target population of the poor… All it does is prevent foreigners from using cheap fuel… Now how many percent you think foreigners used up our fuel? Probably not even 1%… Oil price is doubling and tripling… and we are ONLY solving 1% of our oil inflation woes internally? This is NOT GOOD…
The best idea would be to integrate ePetrol’s system with our Internal Revenue Board and National Registration Dept… Those with MyKAD will enjoy subsidies, but subsidy rate varies at the same categories of which you pay your income tax…
But this is prone to abuse for those who asked their drivers to pump their luxury cars, so each person will have to declare the cars they have and how much mileage they going to use for a year probably… and if they exceed that mileage or petrol consumption per year, then they pay more expensive rates for the exceeded petrol usage… This would also stop poor people from helping the rich to pump as everyone has a quota…
Or the simpler solution that other countries practise… lower car tax and unsubsidised petrol… so the poor buys cheaper/smaller cars and pump less, the rich buys biggers cars and pump more…
I remember that a few months back that G states the current IC that we are all using is a cock up project and wasted RM500 mils of our hard earn money.
Now a company “claims” that IC can be used and link to banks & credit cards??? … sad to say, it will cock up too, i presume.
Our G do not think nor study in the first place but having a hard head started banging on each doors or walls. Later when the head is swollen, started to blame the doors are hard, rather to blame why not using their heads for better use in the first place….
Furthermore it will only solve 1 portion of the problem in which is the subsidized fuel used by non-Malaysian. How about the rich?? It is still the same and it still an abuse to the rest of Malaysian earning a decent living.
So after all the hassle and bussle, we are glad to find ourselves back to square 1 and minus a few hundred of millions gone just for heads banging…
I wonder how much Msia government will have to invest on the system above before they can start controlling the subsi to only Malaysian with MyKad.
i think if this system got the go ahead, maybe the best way to curb abuse would be to link the system to LHDN or EPF or something. i mean it’s easy to track abuse when let say somebody who’s earning around RM1000/month is spending about RM600-800/month for petrol. But hey, this is not the final system and we’ll see what the govt end ups with when they’re ready to announce it…
WreaKing are you sure your mykad cannot link to bank account or cannot be used as credit card…u still not change your old ic to mykad arr…my kad is pretty usefull u know…all detail about you can be inserted on mykad… driving license, pasport…health data….even can be use as touch n go card…you dont have to worry if you forget to bring your driving license…just show your mykad if a police ask your license… its not possible to link it to your bank account…its only us not fully utilized it and lack of G campaign to show us what mykad capable to do…just dont lost you card…the penalty is high…if your mykad is not working just change it with minimum cost of rm10….furthermore…dont speculate things that not happen yet…you sound like this system is already implemented…and like fortune teller tell everybody its a bad system…G never said anything about this system…its only an invention by a private company….a very good one if its combine with quota system
for cash rm600 i do not agree with it…the rakyat will ask for increment year by year just like gaji.hahahah
hmmmm there might be a potential problem here. the folks who stay in rural areas (the ones that really deserve the subsidy) may not have Mykad. problem for them!
I am telling you this will not work in practice. You see, rich people have their drivers to drive their cars around. Most of the time the drivers are poor. So, the driver go and fill up the car then. Can bring 7-series still get subsidies. Or I can ask students, unemployed friends to help me refuel their car. Can also ask grandfather to fill car up.
Second problem is that not everyone has their bank account tele on their Mykad. This will be a problem for the very poor or those who only use motorcycles/cars in kampung area. Most of the time they fill up at the shops not petrol stations. If they visit the station, they will have a hard time as they don’t have their mykad-bank with them. thy suffer more.
Third, petrol station owners get by how much they sell petrol right. So, if the owner can promise cheap petrol (using his card-bank) and people pay him the money, then he will get more revenue for whatever sales he manages to do. More like he stocked up lots of cash in account, then people pay him real cash.
The moment you have this thing up, people will try a lot of stuff to crack it.
I think the system could work if say whenever u pay road tax for a car your mycard can be credited with a certain amount of quota for subsidised petrol base on your car engine… that way…. people won’t simply let other’s use their Mycard for petrol.
Agree that this system is prone to abuse. Does it discriminate between high and low income earners? These days, even the PTIs got mykad, therefore it may not cater the ones who deserved it.
dcwhz83 said:
the simpler solution that other countries practise… lower car tax and unsubsidised petrol… so the poor buys cheaper/smaller cars and pump less, the rich buys biggers cars and pump more…
—————————–
I STRONGLY AGREE WITH WHAT dcwhz83 SAID! Please “normalized” the car tax and petrol. This is what most of the other countries are doing. According to an economic journal which i had read b4, there is NO valid reason to increase the tax and protect infant industry (like auto industry in our bolehland ) from economic point of view. which means this is not helping our country economic.
p/s: I have to clarify that i know our auto industry is NOT considered as infant nowadays…..”OUR PRIDE”……..since 1985..
What a joke. Gee, what a coincidence, the government suddenly announces this move and there’s this one company perfectly poised to offer its services, having just completed testing and trial. No need for open tenders, this company now gets an eternal contract to supply and maintain these stupid devices. How convenient and I’m totally sure there was no cronyism or corruption involved at all lol.
So now people that lose their IC (that they now have to carry with them everywhere) due to snatch theft, robbery, scams etc. also get to have their bank accounts drained. Congrats on making ICs an hot commodity for criminals! It’s like a promotional offer for criminals from the government. SPECIAL OFFER: Rob someone and get the money/cards you normally do, and get a tank of petrol for free!
Meanwhile everyone gets to enjoy longer queues at petrol stations when the pumps are all working but several of these gizmos are “rosak”. Good luck waiting for them to be fixed, as these dodgy crony companies are typically totally unable to cope with the scale of their dubiously awarded contracts. And just trying to imagine this device at the last dirt-lot kampung petrol stand I visited makes me laugh.
Funniest of all is it won’t stop anyone from buying subsidized petrol. You think smugglers will have even the slightest trouble getting around this? Meanwhile Aunty and Uncle from Singapore/Thailand can just pay a couple ringgit to any of the dudes whose new job is to hang around the petrol stand all day with a dozen MyKads in their pocket.
After all, why solve the problem by removing some taxes and subsidies together, when you can fashion the typical unwieldy, flawed solution full of loopholes? This works perfectly for “them”: solve nothing, waste tons of taxpayer money, fill the pockets of a select few, and have people cheer the idea on! Business as usual, especially when it concerns cars in this country.
Ha! cannot agree more with Cetait’s view!
With this new program our by our G. I’m only thinking one thing in my mind.
Another failure project by our G…..
Why can’t they just open up their mind and ask us what to do instead of doing something that will loose our citizen’s hard earn money at the first place.
hei CETAIT, you are so right!!!!i m sorry i shouldnot agree to remove tax and subsidy together to solve the problem. haha….
The dreaded fuel subsidies. Now the concern of abuse of subsidies to undeserving lots. To solve it, they came out with this ePetrol solution. But as Malaysians are very “smart”, we all know that the system would be broken. Some here already pointed out that Malaysian ICs can be “borrowed” and perhaps resale to foreigners.
There will be a never ending debate on fuel subsidies and it is no doubt that the fuel prices are increasing, thus affecting the amount of billions spent to subsidise the petrol. When they made the big hike, the government promised that it will be used to improve public transport but we all know it did nothing. Of course, they could blame it on new crude oil prices, thus voiding the forecasted savings.
Instead of thinking how to manage subsidy, the government should look into improve the welfare of Malaysians. Examples like imposing minimum wages for occupations of various industries. Secondly on improving public transport. If public transport is so efficient, people will make this as primary choice of moving about, thus making cars a secondary/weekend vehicle to drive. If the masses use public transport, imagine how much we could cut congestion and make road travel quicker.
If the average Malaysian earn an acceptable minimum wage plus by having a proper nationwide public transport network, I don’t see why we would need to subsidise petrol. Let it roll with the market prices but atleast our fellow Malaysians can still live and move about with well planned transport system.
Sadly our public transport is quite non existent and couldn’t reach everyone.
Hi, I work with Jabatan Pendaftaran Negara and I would like to rectify some of the comments here.
First on the issue whether MyKad can be link to your bank account or not. Yes it can and the system is already been there from day one. It just that banks prefer to have their own cards (hence the bankcard and the RM8 fees) and people just don’t like the idea of having everything on a single card.
Once your MyKad is linked to your bank account, it act like normal bankcard, which means that you have to have your pin number to make any transaction. It would be nice if the ePetrol can integrate fingerprint identification system on their machine as an alternative to pin number (yeah, I know, people will start to say robbers will chop off fingers… sick!).
Those MyKad being used by PKI are mostly stolen and being tampered on the surface only. So far, Investigation Division of JPN is yet to stumble upon MyKad with the chips (yeah, they are two of them – the MyKad chip which is visible and the TNG chip which is hidden under the flag) being tampered.
Its not that government didn’t promote the use of MyKad, it is more because of Malaysian as a whole always have negative perspectives on everything that is Made In Malaysia. If you still have fear of using MyKad, then you surely seem to be okay with your bankcard thought they basically used the same technology.
Just so you guys know, the chip on MyKad contains only basic data i.e – name, address, d.o.b, fingerprints image, owner’s photo, religion (don’t ask), voter’s locality (not active yet, so don’t ask), driving license information, passport information, health information and a few more. Your information regarding summons, credit, police warrants, bank account details is NOT IN THE MYKAD. All these data can be access using MyKad and will be linked to specific organisation which held those records. Still, you have to have pin numbers, fingerprint ID or digital certificate to accesss it.
I hope this will help a little bit. I know people will still be questioning this and that. But, essentially, ePetrol is a good idea/concept and should be implement if it can benefits us all.
Thanks
still doesn’t stop the problem of me renting my Mykad out to foreigners who wanna buy fuel.
and by linking the mykad to credit card or bank accounts, we may be even more susceptible to crimes like stealing IC and making purchases with them.
the government has to really implement a foolproof plan to counter the negatives. but with my constant observation, it’s gonna be a case of implement and forget. tak apa lah!
Hi. Interesting comments. I have been following this blog site for awhile but this thread took my attention.
Fuel subsidy has serious implications to our nation. Do it wrongly and all of us will take a hit on our wallets and savings. Not to mention the stock market and investments. Massive inflation. Our folly was to allow a big different to arise between our fuel price (which is highly subsidized) and the volatile priced “processed” fuel market. Our G kept us in good living conditions (low fuel price & other subsidized goodies) but this actually drove us further and further away from global fuel price reality. We thus live in a “goodie” bubble provided by our G.
Our low fuel price then accounts for our low priced “char koey teow”, nasi lemak, teh ais, rice, etc. you name it. Try eating these overseas. yikes.
Imagine if our fuel price suddenly is changed overnight/shot period of time from “Controlled” to “Market” (i.e. price determined by global/regional supply & demand of “processed” fuel). Our current RON97 price (processed fuel) is RM 1.92/L, abroad RON97 is above RM5.
Our wages will need to keep up, the businesses that employ us needs to keep up, our exports needs to keep up and I can bet that our nasi lemak & teh tarik will have no problem keeping up.
In short, our economy will suffer alot to make this change suddenly or in such short period that the economy cannot keep up. Rakyat be facing a hard time.
Do not get me wrong. Market price at the pump is inevitable. It is just how we do it that matters.
Whatever the G do, either macro policies or system implementations, we need to do this gradually. Targeting the needy with this system may not be a bad idea. The needy gets help and the rich gets less or none. I would agree with this. However I hope they know what & how they (ePetrol) are doing this.
If it works fine, if it does not work … politicians are renewable now a days ;)
from an ex-Oil & Gas employee
too much speculations…
I am just curious why the government seems to have decided to basically force the driving public to carry their MyKads everywhere they go. After all, the more recent trend has been to de-emphasize everyday carrying, given the cost and difficulty in replacing it. Many people now only carry photocopies in case they are victims of snatch theft/pickpocket/forgetfulness.
The use of a PIN for bank link is good additional security. Though one wonders whether petrol stations, already less secure than ATMs, will soon be overrun with scammers offering to “help” aunties and uncles confused by the new system.
As someone noted earlier, where are the studies showing this to be a major drain on the country? Why is everyone so quick to support a multimillion dollar scheme without any real proof it’s necessary? Especially when the money is so badly needed elsewhere.
Basically the plan has a lot of holes and it all boils down to: Is introducing this level of hassle to what is a routine transaction everywhere else in the world REALLY worth it? And who are the REAL benificiaries in this whole scheme? Don’t say the rakyat, because the expense of installing and maintaining this system nationwide will likely exceed any savings it will bring. (as explained in previous post, plenty of loopholes)
but then again, not surprising since we have other stupid creations like MSC, proton, A.P’s etc. queue up the ePetrol.
by the way, they call this ePetrol an ‘innovation’? the only thing that you do is swipe a card to get the lower price and perhaps they record it down and send u a bill. like a discount card or a shopping centre member card. but i suppose its an ingenius method to make money out of nothing. like the AP system.
lower car tax and unsubsidised petrol helps everybody not just the rich. since proton is doing so well now, its time the cashcow subsidize our petrol back for our 30 years support. subsidy is based on how many proton and non proton cars you have bought. how they calculate this out we can leave it to the ‘innovative’ people to think about.
i beleive car buyers should not subsidize things for the rest of the country and should be reimbursed in that sense.
paul…your blog have become politics blog rather then automotive blog..hahahha..not you fault this happen…but seems everything related to p1 and oil subsidy….the comment will outburst with many lame speculation and non constructive opinion…like everything the G do will cause failure….even G not even state anything about this epetrol…i not supporting the G but its boring to read about politics everywhere in the net…better works hard rather then sit infront of computer and speculate things…peace in mind
wonder how much it will cost the govt to install this on every pump in the country
Instead of speding potential millions on another system (the MyKad is a perfect example of a good technology but an underused/underoptimized system), the government should just remove subsidies all together, and with it car taxes and road taxation.
Move the economy to pay per use. Its a simpler model and not prone to inherent abuses.
If I want to drive a big car (or drive like a madman) I pay for more petrol use. I don’t need the rest of the population to subsidize my fuel. If I want to be responsible and drive properly with a fuel efficient car, then I shall spend less on petrol. Or if I have public transport, I will use public transport.
There will be a self correcting mechanism once these are in place. People will invest in cleaner more efficient cars (now that they are more affordable without the stupid taxes). This will also curb the general wasteful habit of malaysians when driving (leaving the engine on at stoplights for example).
The trickle down effect is substantial in the long run.
Now ..if only they can remove more of the other government crony money making schemes…….(ahem..APs anyone?)
Hmmm how a datuk-looking person typically looks like :)
Can we have stat how many ‘rich’ ppl vs ‘poor’ ppl. Or how much fuel used by rich ppl vs poor ppl. I think most of us in the middle and with this sys we are the one suffered…..
I fully agree with PT, it’s sad that the company choose to focus more attention to Datuk-types. Are these petrol kiosk exclusively for the well-heeled? Don’t us normal rakyat deserve equal attention since we would normally be the majority user of this ePetrol thingy? Some things never change…
Asalamualaikum/Hello,
We had this similar discussion (using MyKad to verify users buying subsidized fuel) at another thread before in PaulTan.Org. I believe the majority would want this system to be implemented as soon as possible but with less hassle. Originally it was a good idea, to implement the system just like swiping your “Bonus Link Card” or “Mesra Card” at pump station and the pump station computer will automatically set your fuel price per-liter to say RM 1.92/liter for Malaysians. Simple as that.
Unfortunately, I have to admit, it is still prone to misuse (just by lending that MyKad to another foreigner) at least it will make it way harder for non-Malaysians to have direct access to the fuel. Furthermore, redundant identification system should be installed by allowing MyKad to be use together with finger-print technology to verify the MyKad belongs to the person purchasing the subsidized fuel. Even if I want to lend MyKad to another foreigner, which means I will have to go together with that guy to the pump station and that would be a lot of hassle for me isn’t it? We can even set only Mykad owner who has a valid driving license can buy subsidized fuel. If not, even my 12 years old little brother can but subsidized fuel (although he doesn’t have a valid dirving license). I agree the system should be linked to Jabatan Pendaftaran Negara (JPN) and Jabatan Pengangkutan Jalanraya (JPJ) but only for the sake of verification whenever the card is in use and NOT to be misused to track our expenses (it is still private). I don’t entirely like the idea using e-Petrol Kiosk UNLESS they received CASH as well. In conclusion, the system should be flexible to accept;
[1] Swipe My-Kad at the pump station
[2] with finger print verification technology (or better)
[3] for people with valid driving license (it means the data is stored in MyKad)
[4] the pump station will accept CASH, Credit Card and e-Bank transactions (for flexibility purposes).
[5] You can even limit the amount of subsidized fuel per person per day to avoid bulk buying that could be used for self-interest. (It is really weird if someone drives a Proton Wira but buying subsidized fuel equivalent to 1 big lorry isn’t it? Thus, avoiding a direct abuse).
Only with this minimum requirement (or better) the subsidized fuel verification system can be implemented with less abuse. Please implement it right a way big “G”! Any other problems we will adjust it later. Owh yeah, there’s another thing, DO NOT charge us extra for it. ;)
Stoopid idea from the pea-braineds.
If implemented, NRD will be teribbly crouded by ppl coming for IC replacement. How durable our IC is?
Can my 13 years old daughter buy petrol with her IC?
with the system there going to be alot of need to monitor. monitor this monitor that. look out for people who had thier fingers chopped off etc. waste of tax payers money, waste the police time when they should be preventing crime, waste the people you have to pay to monitor it, extra work for service station attendants, and extra bills to foot up for the station owners. waste tax payers money to fund epetrol which basically does nothing.
all this just for 1 or 2 thousand in savings a year. when your paying like 30-60k in car taxes when u buy a new car or old. or risk getting mugged everytime to take public transport.
We’re about to see a recycling process happening in Parliament. And also, people in the know have already spoken too. The JPN person, the O&G person… just weigh the possibilities first throughly before making assumptions. Have some empathy, maybe together we can come up with a viable solution. A compromise of some sort that we can forward to the G.
Hi,
I’m seeing a mini parliament in here (PaulTan.Org) which is good for the sake of the discussion BUT if we over do it, then we will never find the solutions. We have witness a lot of bloggers/forumers who just know how to do cheap talk or blind-bashing, but not actually a problem solver. I actually read all of the forumers’ reply from the first post until the latest one so I don’t have to repeat things which are said earlier or I might slow down the thread by asking the same question over and over again or I might bring out a stupid blind-bashing statement. These are simple rules for a true forumer, please take your time reading thru all the replies (only the good ones) only then you can start posting yours. We are gather here in PaulTan.Org to provide our very own careful thoughts for the betterment of Malaysia automobile industry (as well as other “small-small” irrelevant topic). Unfortunately, they are “small” numbers of forumers who just know how bash but do not provide a better solution for the problem. It certainly defeats the purpose for setting up this Forum in the first place. Hence, we should be having an intellectual discussion in here. I personally think MyKad is still plausible (as stated in my earlier posting). Hopefully the blind-bashing-without-proper-reasoning stops now.
Why stop at fingerprint technology, why not retinal scan and DNA match? This ain’t some science fiction utopia, this is Malaysia, where things like that cost a lot of money, don’t work very well, and break easily. It’s totally impractical for something as high traffic and common as petrol stands.
“Please implement it right a way big “Gâ€! Any other problems we will adjust it later” — this is a total recipe for expensive disaster. everyone knows this is the government’s favorite way to do things and we’ve seen the terrible results time and time again.
Spending millions on elaborate and easy-to-break technologies isn’t the answer. The answer is to remove the incentive for people to abuse the subsidy. This is by removing it and compensating by removing excessive tax on cars and spares. Government spending is offset by savings, same for rakyat. Of course this would make it harder for certain connected people to make money, but haven’t they stolen enough by now?
i agree with someone’s suggestion of removing the subsidies altogether so motorists pay petrol at the current price. but my fear is that freight costs will increase too, giving excuse for traders to increase food prices. i can cut down on my car driving and take public transport, but i cant take anymore increases in food prices.
the idea of this mykad machine at kiosks sounds good, but i agree with someone’s comment that the nationwide rollout will be costly. banks and kiosks had disagreements before on who should bear the cost of chip-based machine at the pump, i am sure this new machine will create even bigger ruckus.
blind-bashing-without-proper-reasoning stops when useless-policies-that waste-tax payer’s-money-without-proper-reasoning stops which of course ties in with the topic of the thread. epetrol is not a solution. it just adds to the problem.
want to stop people from stealing your subsidized petrol. stop subsidizing and offset by removing excessive tax. stop burdening your own citizens just to save a few bucks from theft from other countries. if they want to steal it they will get it one way or the other even with useless security provided by epetrol or mykad. remove the subsidy and they wouldnt have a reason to steal.
less tax on cars means people can buy what car they want and be more concious of how they spend thier own money. i.e drive less, spend less thus managing thier own finances better instead of asking the government for handouts.
Now they think of new way to suck more blood; after a year or two, if the thing turn up to be a failure, very easy, just close shop, anyway the money that ‘sacrifice’ in the project does not come from their own pocket, never mind… moreover, when your bike or car need petrol and there is a stupid kiosk does not work in order, what to do then, push your bike and car to next petrol station? I have not been through all over the world yet, but at least in Singapore, Thailand, Hong Kong/Macau, China mainland, India, Europe, Dubai… not such thing happen yet… I really can not understand this, this is like when a crime happen, they blame the victims instead of catch the criminal… ridiculous !!
Having go ahead of this idea? erm i totally disagree first of all how much taxpayer money will be spend to emplement this system!!!!and the outflow of the gasoline is between the gas station and the consumer is between logistic of the gas. Does the government know if they implement this sys. they double slap their own mouth to promote malaysia as a second home. How does people think if they treated differently. Less first world country people will not consider malaysia as second home any more. What if your mykard chip spoil at that time you malaysia also have to pay the unsubsidiesed amount. haiz this day all system implementation is implement Ikut Suka Aku. no study on the impact and the efficiency of the system.. DISSAPOINTED!!!disappointment
well i think the best way to solve the subsidy problem is to remove it all together.
1st: remove all fuel subsidies, over a period of time, no sane person can take a sudden increase in oil price overnight, plus the amount of hoarding before unsubsidying it.
2nd: remove all taxes on the cars coming in from overseas countries, i am talking AFTA! government. so don’t bloody delay what is inevitable. start making our lives better for god’s sake.
3rd: increase in fuel and prices no dount we have to increase our wages to counter the effects. the savings from taxes can be used to offset the high fuel prices.
besides, with the fuel price at market rate globally, see if there will be cases of foreigners using our fuel.
this is not my opiniated view. this is what the rakyat has been wanting for a bloody long time. just the damned government keep delaying and pushing it here and there.
proton/perodua can die for all i care. once AFTA sets in, no one will buy local makes anyway. i rather have money in my pocket than national pride.
learn from the british, even they are willing to give up their concorde plane project.
underpayed and overworked for far too long.
see if anyone will complain about fuel prices hikes when their pay is increased.
Remove subsidy and liberalize the market? We will be dead. Oil companies will form cartel and suck you dry.
Two sudden changes that compliments each other.. will it work? Decrease car prices down to actual market force value and increase fuel price to unsubsidised level. Load road taxes onto Oil and Gas firms. That would be current practice in the States, right.
What about cars bought at current prices… owners will be fuming. Maybe can decrease and increase at slow speed, taking up to one year or so. Cadangan oni ar.. coz I see a lot of people kinda suggesting this too.
Actual market force value means what ar? RMxxx.xx divide by three to get actual car price? Izzat it?
Chap_D_X,
Yeah rite!
You can ask all the guys around in the blog who even dare to input or upload the simplest thing, let’s say Medical Infos.
I dare to say less than 10% dare to do so.
And now we input our bank details in it?
Private company or GLC or what company needs G approval before proceeding. No matter what it will involve G. So u r saying not G problem?? U sure arr??
It seems u really support to the all n 1 card thing, so u fully utilized your IC then??
Hi,
I notice a very convincing discussion above there, good for the sake of the conversation BUT, keep on removing subsidy, taxes, duties and et-cetera … we will end-up BANKRUPT! No money to implement major projects, no money to provide security, no money to do this to do that… When everything is so mess-up, blame it on the Government mis-managing it. Very clever of you, brilliant-Malaysians (I clap my hand). Good, I’m seeing our “mini-parliament” is in motion.
The good news is they’re seems to be a lot of you knowadays. The bad news is, we are not going anywhere with it. We are totally in dead-lock. In mathematical terms, if you can’t resolve a simple equation the answer will comes out ERROR. As I mentioned earlier, there are more troublemakers than problem-solvers these days. If this ideas comes from my fellow countrymen, I’m reading your comments with high enthusiasm and analyze the the pros and cons BUT, I notice some foreigners (Singaporeans, Indonesians and Thailand maybe?) in our “Fuel Subsidized Blog” ??? Eh… conflict of interest ??? Trying to turn the table so Malaysians do not need to approve such policy.
Personally, MyKad is still plausible. I say we go for it. Who says politics is about making glamorous decision; its all about making the right one. I’m sure the big “G” is doing right this time. Don’t get me wrong, I ain’t a “G” guy. If the opposition comes with a better idea, I’ll support them. It’s all about serving the “rakyat” needs and not the individual’s needs. The only issue we are valid to discuss is how to implement it. Many thanks and appreciation to bloggers who actually criticize and provide better ideas. Owh yeah, there’s one thing; In the late 1980’s when Tun Dr. Mahathir announced he wants to build the world’s tallest building (KLCC) so it could catapult KL into a higher iconic level the oppositions said; its a waste of money. Now, my friends, Malaysia is like a business-magnet attracting business here and there just because we smack a twin-monument right in the heart of KL. Before that, Malaysia is the LESS known country in the South-East Asia. Apart having a very medium-size populations (estimated 27 millions populations) we still manage to bring constant development just under 50 years. Not to mention with the 3 major races who’re in total conflict at all times and political “tsunami” lately, we still can grab hold to peace and prosperity. I wonder how long Malaysia could last with “semua orang nak jadi politicians” attitude. Just my 2 Ringgit and 50 Cents.
SY0H said,
Now, my friends, Malaysia is like a business-magnet attracting business here and there just because we smack a twin-monument right in the heart of KL.
————
Riiight. Keep telling yourself that.
Just in case you have not noticed, we seem to have a little bit of problem attracting FDI. Oh BTW, Singapore is younger than our 50 years on “independence” and they make do with little to no resources…hell they even need to get water from us.
You are right, Malaysia is doing fine…. just not as good as all our neighbours.
And why if you ask me? The country is rich in resource…only issue is, it has only been …how would you put it….”mismanaged”? Ask yourself that the next time you buy a nice car, and wonder what the (at least) 10-20k premium that went into whatever additional statistical documentation crap was for. For the betterment of the country or to line someone else’s pocket?
The country wont be bankrup if they remove taxes and road taxes on cars. Our market for new cars isn’t big enough to make a dent. Whatever they forgo in car taxes they will make it back in additional spending (GST..etc) and generation of additonal consumer demand which would stimulate GDP.
WreaKing
that what your ignorant type of thinking….dont blame other…no body can overwrite your mykad data without your fingerprint verification…correct me if i am wrong…and for the bank account link with mykad…why not…even with your bankcard you must enter pin number before making any transaction…its the same application…not just swipe n go…plzzz i can accept good critics…but baseless nonsense critics…yuks… and lastly i am agree with the idea of 1 kad for many application if the implementation is good….
chap_de_x, you’re right. nobody can overwrite the data inside MyKad except JPN. And nobody can change its core data such as name, IC number and finger print images as it will render the card unusable if tried. Not that anybody know how to do it yet…
When you link your MyKad to your bank account, it will act exactly the same as your current bankcard/credit card which needs pin number confirmation. If you’re okay with having your petrol pump transaction using bankcard/credit card, why not MyKad? It is essentially the same tech and mind you, ever more secure as it has additional security in the form of finger print data embedded into the chips. You don’t get that on your bankcard/credit card.
If this system is develop by a third party, it is their job to implement it (with oil companies), not the government. The government can at most, spread the words only…
4G63T DSM said
Riiight. Keep telling yourself that.
Just in case you have not noticed, we seem to have a little bit of problem attracting FDI. Oh BTW, Singapore is younger than our 50 years on “independence†and they make do with little to no resources…hell they even need to get water from us.
You are right, Malaysia is doing fine…. just not as good as all our neighbours.
And why if you ask me? The country is rich in resource…only issue is, it has only been …how would you put it….â€mismanagedâ€? Ask yourself that the next time you buy a nice car, and wonder what the (at least) 10-20k premium that went into whatever additional statistical documentation crap was for. For the betterment of the country or to line someone else’s pocket?
The country wont be bankrup if they remove taxes and road taxes on cars. Our market for new cars isn’t big enough to make a dent. Whatever they forgo in car taxes they will make it back in additional spending (GST..etc) and generation of additonal consumer demand which would stimulate GDP.
you just spoke my mind!
great idea. it has it’s flaws but its a good start to at least stop foreigners from buying our subsidized fuel. Yes there will be abuse but potentially the abuse will still be less than the foreigners denied of buying cheap fuel. nothing if fool proof, lets just take it one step at a time.
just leave put a ruleup at check points. full tanks only upon entering malaysia. or close to full tanks.
seems fair to everyone. we do not want to hurt our tourism. we just want foreigners to use our subsidized fuel in our country, contributing to our economy.
this selling of diesel at marine points and all, tankers selling diesel across borders, will still continue to have a problem.
then again just float the price of petrol to world market prices. thats the best. then lets see how malaysia can compete on a level platform.
ooo.. some datuk is is getting rich soon.
10,000 kiosk machine for change… 1 machine 10k.. waahh..
no wonder simple thing, they have to make it so susah.
subsidise the petrol, or imply tax. Simple as that.
But this is not, they come out with identification for petrol kiosk
Obviously, want to change all kiosk and earn big laaa.
So many comments in just a few days! Wandered back to this blog thinking to share more from the Oil & Gas industry.
One thing for sure, try stating facts and stats when making comments (I hear ya). This will help the blog thread to be more realistic in our approach.
Thanks frossonice, SY0H & mukhri88. Your insights are enlightening & constructive. csv posts are interesting. Idealy where we should be ;)
In brief, my constructive proposal is “Restructure Fuel Subsidy Effectively & Responsibly”
Anyhow here are my items for everyone’s considerations:
– Largest foreign investment company: Shell. Investment > RM 70 Bil.
– Largest Malaysian Company: Petronas
– 9th Malaysia Plan: Allocated RM 40+ Bil a year for implementation
– Subsidies in Malaysia: Estimate to use RM 40+ Bil a year for fuel, sugar, flour, etc.
– Malaysia Total Revenue 2007: RM 140+ Bil (www.treasury.gov.my)
– Malaysia Total Expediture 2007: RM 120+ Bil
– Expected National Balance change 2007 & 2008 = 13% & 2.1% (i.e. how much the G earns (total revenue – total expenditure) changes per year)
– Revenue from Company Direct Taxes = RM 30 Bil / year
– Revenue from Petroleum Direct Taxes (PITA) = RM 22 Bil / year
– Revenue from PETRONAS (non-tax revenues) = RM 24 Bil / year
– Revenue from Licenses & permits (all) = RM 9 Bil / year
– Revenue from Road Taxes = RM 1.7+- Bil / year
– Revenues from Income Taxes = RM 12 Bil / year
Principles of thoughts on Fuel Subsidy Restructuring: –
– Implementing market fuel prices are inevitable.
– Make changes to fuel prices effectively, correctly and/or gradualy that enables positive economic adjustments.
– Always understand economic truths
– Do not stress companies with positive incomes. Protect their interests.
– DO MAKE DRASTIC CHANGES AND FRIGHTEN FOREIGN INVESTORS
– PROTECT THE RAKYAT FROM ECONOMIC CHANGES THAT WE ARE POWERLESS AGAINST!
– Effectively place subsidies to needed people or industry sectors (agriculture and etc).
– There is always a cost in implementing a policy or a system (admin/service vs system)
MY COMMENTS:
Looking at the facts, like it or not, fuel is very much part of our Malaysian life. Screw it, we screw ourselves.
Taxes from companies making profits accounts for RM 30 bil/year (21%), petroleum taxes RM 22 Bil/year (16%) and from PETRONAS RM 24 Bil/year (17%). Together it makes RM 76 Bil / year (54%).
Our income taxes accounts for RM 12 Bil / year (8.5%). Significant but not entirely strong for the nation.
This means any changes we make that affect companies, petroleum incomes and other petroluem realted incomes, we are messing with 54% of our total national income.
Try making 27% (54% divide by 2) adjustment to our paycheck. We will feel the impact immediately even with a partial change.
What we know is that we pump RM 40+ bil into subsidies. That is more than 2X our net income of RM 18 Bil (2007: Total Revenue – Total Ependiture, see www.treasury.gov.my). At a macro scale, we need to change. no doubt.
Now if we have a method of reducing subsidies (policy or system), to say 50% of now, we will save Rm 20 bil a year! That is more money for 9MP! 50% more to grow the nation! That is at least RM20bil to pay for TOLLS and car import taxes (do I hear any cheers!)
MACRO POLICIES:
By making economic policies (macro) that affect fuel subsidies is by far the fastest but is also far reaching. It has a blanket effect.
– Making it too simple: Clear and simple to public. Fast to implement. However it may not be efficient (i.e leakages and abuses), adverse effects on the key sectors of the economy due to blanket effect
– Making it to complex: More efficient (i.e. correctly target the right people or industries). However it becomes complex implement and to understand for the public & companies, difficult to administrate. Alot slower to implement and may have several adjustments (seen as undecisiveness)
It need not implement any complex machinary or months of integration. Its immediate tomorrow or at least as soon as the G decides.
Reducing taxes will immediately decreases our nation’s revenue but the subsidy of the volatile prices of fuel is still here. Not a good position to be in.
Less income vs increasing costs. Hmmmm … Then tax other things, more. Companies, income and other taxes? That is the approach that other nation had taken. It works for now but they have more than 30 years to do it.
Caution if we try to do it in 1 year. Try having a baby and change your job at the same time? It is bad enough for me.
Thinking about national changes in so many tax structures & policies. All of us will have to make these changes work immediately or face the consequences.
However changes in economic policies have adverse effects on foreign investors. Remembered what happenned to our Riggit being pegged. It was a very good decision but it frightened foreign investors. Our funds pulled out, our stock market got hit, which was a visible indicator, and then the rest of our industry got spooked and affected by the sudden lack in liquidity (moving money). Remember? We really felt it hard then.
The G must also be considering this as our nation is on the positive track at the moment. Foreign money is again on the rise (hurray!) and we have been seeing increse in projects, sales, work and salary.
The last thing we want to do is jump out at them and frigenten them again. And so our nation wait another 10 years to see the money again?
Foreign investors like, stable economic policies that they can work in (less complex), economic advantages on taxes and other elements (e.g. cheaper & highly skilled work forces, friendly tax programs, etc), and other goodies to stay and use their money here.
Shell is just one with RM70bil invested here. There are others with also substantial amounts. Talk to Penang residents and they will tell you about spooking Foreign Investors.
By far, I think the G may settle on this one. No body is sure about this.
HALLO! Any G men out there who wants to talk on this ;) ?
IMPLEMENTING A SYSTEM:
I am not against a system if …
The consideration of an effective Fuel subsidy system (i.e. “ePetrol” or other like it) must achieve a few criteria: –
– Gov need not change policies that spook Foreign Investors or critical industries
– Public MUST not pay for it (hey I agree w u lot out there)
– Does not introduces complex systems to Oil companies
– Effectively target & providing subsidies to needed individuals and industries
– the G is able to gradually increase fuel prices while keeping needy individuals and industries protected (foreign investors’ companies).
– Simple user experience at the station. Easy for the uncle & aunties out there to use
– Use MyKad (I do not need another card) since we all have them. I do not want to line up to apply for yet another card.
– Secure (I do not want my card to be scammed like back in my magnetic credit card days)
– Convenience & Use at the pump with Cash handling equivalent. Hey if at the end I cannot use this system at the PUMP, its not worth my time.
– No logistic Nightmare! Please no more queing up again and definately not on a regular basis.
– Implement Public Trial Period: show the public that it works initially before a massive rollout (Please remember Heathrow Terminal 5 nightmare).
Yes. Systems can be expensive and complicated to implement.
GOOD PART OF IT: Complexity will only involve the G and the oil companies. We as public will be shilded from the complexity.
BAD PART OF IT: Money. If it costs like RM 20 Bil, then its not worth it at all. I want my money at least in growing more rice, build roads, etc. However if it cost like 1-5% of the total RM40 Bil i.e. One time and below RM 2 Bil (fanned out over 5 years) at least, then it is considered economically feasible in light of the cost of the problem.
Our Malaysian systems seems always to have “visible” faults :D Aisey embarrassing max. However, no systems work perfectly anyway.
Even economic policies can be faulty but its waaaay less visible because no one (public) can objectively measure it or see the gaping cracks.
IMPLEMENTATION RISK CONSIDERATIONS:
I am thinking aloud about the what ifs … what ifs. Please spare more thoughts on this as I am writing on the go ;)
IF FUEL SUBSIDY POLICY IS NOT WORKING PROPERLY:
The G will need to re-work on the policy and fix it. Image of G in Malaysia might not go well with local & international investors. Economy might take a blow with foreign investments. Stock market might show signs of drop. Recovery from this will be very difficult (our last recovery took us 9 years)
IF FUEL SUBSIDY SYSTEM IS NOT WORKING PROPERLY:
The G will need to fix it until it works. Really embarrassing stories (like Heathrow Terminal 5). May not affect us that much if pilot is done properly. Might not affect economy since no policies were changed.
CONCLUSIONS:
Please G hear my comments. As a citizen, family man & good neighbour my wants are: –
– Do not do drastic changes to economic policies that will affect the nation. I got my income, home, investment (stocks, mutual funds), savings (cash) and my family & future to safe guard. My RM 1.70 can buy a bottle of coca-cola, I don’t want to buy at RM4 for a bottle of coca-cola. All my savings will have less value.
– Do not spook investments into Malaysia. Please continue our positive growth. I hope that our changes in national revenue for 2008 will not be just 2.1% and hope it can be like 2007 at 13+% or more. Malaysia do well, I do well. I hope new mix in G will sustain our growth in revenue ;)
– Do not put Malaysians at risk. Please have good advisors and do the right thing.
As for myself (for my personal risk profile), if I were to make a choice, I will probably go for the system as it has a lower risk for us all. Please just keep the costs affordable and do not make us pay.
And KEEP IT TRANSPARENT.
Hope my rantings makes interesting reading (at least).
Bye for now.
Ex-Oil & Gas employee
How many of you really embedded your bank account with MYKADS? And how many feature that we have used base on what it can provide
Will you let someone know that you are Rich? And more ease to target for.
How many times you see from news than even the MYKADS embedded with your license, but policy still didn’t have equipment to check on it?
If the robbery able to see / read your MYKADS, guess what will happen next?
How many people didn’t pay income tax as they income was below 24K, but keep in mind those acted as bosses in the food court actually early more than us J (Sorry)
Rich people always have Driver who income below 24K, so ….?
I guess it was not an ease WIN – WIN status.
Maybe they shall as individual patrol status open a counter just for NON-Malaysian car and station owner hold full responsibilities / accountabilities on it, include on putting CCTV to prove the honest to the rules. At this same time can help reduce crime rate and protect users who pump patrol on they stations.
Hi,
I QUOTE from:
TravelDriver said,
May 25, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
That’s a total in-depth discussion Mr. TravelDriver. At least somebody in here is talking sense. Keep it up!
jo_crv,
It is not embedded, it is linked. Your real bank account data is NOT inside the MyKad chip, it stays with the bank and can be access by you only provided you have the appropriate access i.e. login and password.
In reality, all MyKad reader available in the market can only read basic personal identification data only plus driving licenses. Other data such as bank account, health info (mind you it is only available if you’re dealing with Hospital Putrajaya), police records and immigration info can only be access exclusively by the relevant parties such as the police, hospital and banks. Even JPN cannot access bank account records linked into your MyKad.
Don’t make assumption if you really don’t know anything about it, okay.
Agree with what Frossonice said above … its unfortunate too many people lack the correct understanding of what this ePetrol company is actually trying to do, as well as the proper understanding of the technicalities involved behind it.
I have a friend who works there and have known about the intentions behind this project for some time now. What differentiates this company against others is that – (a) to begin with, they have not solicited a single cent (sen) from any government body, and the owners of this company, (apart from being individually rich themselves), have spent actual millions of RM over the last few years, to move from pure concept to real life pilot implementation of such an end-to-end solution, just to make sure it works.
Having worked in the IT industry for more than 25 years, and the last 11 years specifically in the oil & gas industry, i can understand the tremendous technical challenges this company must have overcomed to get to this stage.
This is where they (ePetrol) have invested in – by acquring technical know-how and domain expertise from subject matter expert individuals from the oil & gas, smart card, epayment, and banking industries – in short the full spectrum of knowledge; to develop, test and prove this system.
Here, i offer some fundamental truths to this subject matter:
(a) the Mykad has an open area that allows smart card readers to READ its information; mainly the IC number, Name, etc. This information is authenticated and securely written into our MyKad chip by JPN and its impossible to change without the encryption key from JPN. Occasionally, fake or stolen MyKads have been used for various unlawful purposes, but these are with fake laminates on the card, where the original MyKad owner’s picture and printed information had been changed. BUT the CONTENTS of the smart chip still contains its ORIGINAL information; because this is practically impossible to change; and to-date, none such case have been detected by JPN yet and they can attest to this.
(b) linking an individual’s bank account to the MyKad – let me clear the air here … firstly, NO additional information is written into the MyKad, as there is no need to, simply because the “linking” is easily achieved by reading your IC number in your MyKad, and routing this information to your bank. Your bank of course would undoubtedly know who you are based on YOUR IC number … therefore, linking your bank account does not mean having your bank account information in your MyKad. The ePetrol system also will NOT have any of your bank details, because the ePetrol system only reports fuel purchase data to your bank, your bank then debits your account and pays the oil company the respective amount, so you are safe. Your privacy is still preserved and protected. Furthermore, if someone steals your MyKad, and tries to buy subsidised fuel, unless the person who steals your MyKad also knows your PIN, they can’t activate the purchase of fuel at any petrol station. Its just like using an ATM card to pay for fuel purchases.
(c) the bank account linking feature is NOT mandatory, meaning an individual has the option to link his/her bank account to the purchase of subsidised petrol, or not to link – in which case, he/she simply just pays using cash or credit card. There’s no magic here. Please understand that the method of payment and the subsidy is two entirely different things. Please don’t confuse and complicate things here. Using the MyKad allows the government to securely and irrevocably grant fuel subsidy amounts to qualified Malaysians, in short this ePetrol thing is a system that enables the gov’t to accurately provide subsidy to individual citizens. How we pay for our petrol purchases at the pump is up to us to decide …
I hope everyone has a better understanding and appreciation based on these facts.
Hi/Asalamualaikum,
I QUOTE from;
WaiserWoo said,
May 26, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
Another intellectual discussion from a knowledgeable blogger! Many thanks and keep up the good work!
I am probably one of those involved in the development of an early prototype of that showcase system when it was still in a laboratory somewhere in a technology park. While it can serve as yet another mode of payment, making a certain gas company attractive to a certain group of consumers that has a certain preference over mode of payment, it is unlikely to be feasible for a national subsidy program that applies to all vehicle owners, such as that indicated in the 2010 national budget. This is because substantial investment is needed for the pump-based payment terminals and the related software infrastructure. I suppose each gas company will have to bear at least several million dollars of upgrade or conversion cost, while getting almost no benefit in return, unless the government reduces fuel taxes payable by the company.
It is much cheaper to implement such a subsidy program with existing loyalty cards (while it is hard to link them to engine capacities, it does allow subsidies based on extent of consumption, a more meaningful way of subsidy allocation). It means those without loyalty cards will not get subsidies. But this does not matter, as they are probably infrequent users, and so subsidies have little meaning to them.