The Edge reported on Monday that Proton Holdings Bhd is exploring partnership options with other automers including Mitsubishi Motors Corp of Japan. Talks between Proton and Volkswagen AG seems to have run into difficulty.
It’s interesting to hear that Mitsubishi has popped up among the possible partners that are Volkswagen AG and Hyundai (well, mainly through Sime Darby). Proton had a 20 year old relationship with Mitsubishi which broke down. Mitsubishi disposed it’s entire 16% stake in Proton, most of which were picked up by Khazanah Nasional, which holds 42.7% of Proton shares now.
The Mitsubishi-Proton partnership was deemed a failure because of the lack of technology transfer. What would be different about it this time? Does NAZA and Peugeot’s partnership on the Peugeot 206 involve technology transfer? It’s an outgoing model after all, due to be replaced with the Peugeot 207.
If talks with Volkswagen really break down, we may not see the proposed use of Volkswagen’s Sharan and Passat platforms for Proton’s new MPV and Perdana replacement model.
Whatever the result, everything has just been speculations so far from industry sources. We eagerly await solid outcomes with official announcements.
Looking to sell your car? Sell it with Carro.
woohoo..i am the first to put comments….I think proton should go for mitsubishi + VW + audi + hyundai…..with different partnership..maybe proton can come up with adifferent theme for upcoming models.
aiyooooooo
After 20 yrs still cannot delvelop our own platform.
After 20 yrs I think I can oreldi votelah maybe I more yr more
Come on after 20 yrs I oredi been kick out of skool and earning my own dough.
I ain spending my hard earn mony on sum counterfeit like POTONG.
Puting a Potong Badge on another Mitsui … better get d original Mitsui lor … 2 nd hand oso original lah.
JNAGAN CETAK ROMPAK……..LOL
You mean come up with ROJAK!
we are malaysian ma….got malay,chinese, indian , sabah and sarawak clan…why shouldn't we rojak leh…mixin up the nation with asian and european influence….
it's ok if we are able to get the best of everything. What I am afraid is we get the worse of everything.
i like the idea. probobaly we malaysian can enjoy the benefit and drive better quality car knowing that the same model is found else where in other parts of the world. i believe, through proper partnership, we can learn better especially from VW who has audi and so on under them.
I think it is a good move! Because POTONG's original platform are from JAPANESE, also the Factory layouts, production lines setup and Spare parts control system. I think by sharing a common engines from Mitsu will bring down development cost of POTONG RND and better Reliability too, I strong believed Mitsu engine is Good and reliable than POTONG one. furthermore I don't believed LOTUS engineering had the capabilities on Mass-production cars.
I personally feels that POTONG RND technology still a distance far (maybe 1000km compare to other only 1m different) from other AUTOmakers even with the supports from LOTUS engineering. It is very clear that, when we talks about Aluminium body design, Fuel cells, AWC, SUV, 4WD, CVT, Hybrid, Electric Cars, VTEC…..MIVEC,…..Safety features like Crash impacts experienced. Mitsubishi is Much better than LOTUS.
Technologies Transfer issue for me is Subjective, and it is the same to any other partnerships too. By natural EVERYBODY is protecting themself because we are doing business. I don't believed anybody in this WORLD, who willing to SHARE their knowledge with YOU without any BENEFITS or Advantages return. I think only YOUR PARENTS will do so.
Some more, VW is not a good partner I believed. The German ppl are not that friendly to transfer the NEW technologies to POTONG. They will do the same as Mitsu before and yet the spare parts cost will be much higher than Mitsu. Don't you think SO!!
Honestly, No one will spoon feeding the knowlegdes to you, unless you have initiative to LEARN with hard working.
Simple example: Even though you hire The Best Badmintion Coach (TOP RANKING in the world) to teach you, but the coach still cannot guarantee you skills will be the same as him or Higher. It is depends on you and your talents. Same goes to RND technologies transfers issues, POTONG should not blame Mitsu or VW or others partners don't TEACH POTONG well. WE should SPY in a professional way!! :)
Anyway, I don't think this will happen soon. Just a RUMOR!! :P
YAU MOU GAU…..CHOR!! I want Mitsubishi Outlander RM80K!! When????
why still use POTONG not PROTON …. ???
i guess it didnt work becoz mitsubishi had to spoon feed everything to people who didnt want to learn.
after being burnt in that partnership for 20 years…..i dont think they gonna take up another without significant benefits….of which i think proton would be willing to do just to stay alive…..so much for all that bullshit they feed you about developing thier own models when its not even real and all those models are significant failures.
btw…i thought mitsubishi had already set up thier own centres here and already brought thier own cars in……even with the penalty tax structure on thier cars
Look at proton's R3 . What have they done so far ? Converting Waja into an FR by using Nissan's engine ? Shouldnt they be doing some reverse engineering instead of fueling Tengku Djan's crave for drifting ….. This is one of the problems of proton ..too many BIG SNAKES sacrificing the company for the sake of themselves
wel , its jus an option , its nt done and dusted….and even if it materialize…it mite be diff kind of partership…maybe only R&D , Or product design….or engin collaboration,i dont tink it wil be like last time wer it was everyting..it doesnt make sence…mitsu thmselves are sinking with their huge debts and r nt really doing wel , beside,u tell me which company doesnt do platform sharing nowadays…everybody does….its common..it saves costs..or it could be jus a rumour done by proton in order for VW to speed up buying stake in Proton….
i dun think there will be really any partnership with mitsubishi, and i am sure are not like the past 20 years. IF there is linking with mitsubishi, it will be mitsubishi selling newer engines(although not the latest one) to proton. Technology transfer………….nolah, i dun think that will happen after the past 20 years, there is no much tech transfer . What do ya think?
come to think of it, since mitsubishi has started selling their cars here, will there be any partnerships?
I doubt this will happen if potong is willing to gip up its control…juz like what VW demanded…its a bluddy fact that all these foreign co. knows local mgmt is suxxx and stupid…they are more keen on digging from the co. to add to their own wealth instead of sacrificing to improve the industries and make wealth for the people…from this, would anyone want to throw their $$ to deep blue sea and feed all this octopus and jelly fish (species with NO backbone!!!) they have to be responsible to their shareholders unlike our POTONG mgmt…oni responsible to their own pocket!!!!
KNNCCB!!!! dont make me swearing in this festive season!!!!!
doc2mee: Its not because we cant develop our own platform, its more about whether it is cost effective or not. In todays open world, everybody know about economy of scale. That is the main reason.
why would mitsubishi want to give proton tecnology info. Do you think Proton will apprecate Mit and allow them to increase their share in proton? Proton themselves are also selfish so what you expect from Mit?
maybe one day we will see proton evo 10 T_T at 80,000RM
People talk about technology transfer as if it is like transfering durians from my father's kebun to the chinaman durian seller. In the case of transfering durians, my father gets money, the chinaman durian seller gets the durian. In other words, mutual benefits to both parties. it is as easy as that.
Technology transfer is different…it is knowledge and application. It is a non-quantifiable thing. In terms of Proton and Lotus, Proton owning Lotus, Proton sends their engineers to learn from Lotus, about callibration, analysis and design, ride and handling, supply chain management etc. They come back to Proton, full of the new knowledge, and now Proton can do everything themselves. That is one form of technology transfer. Can it be quantified? No, it is priceless! I guess the only way we can try to quantify this achievement is when the costs are down in the next project, as they don't need to pay Lotus anymore for their consultations. Now when a new batch of Proton workers come in, the experienced engineers would teach the new ones how everything's done. And the cycle goes on and on. This is the number one benefit of owning Lotus.
What people see are the actual new technology that Proton are lacking to come up with. One question, if you want the most up to date technology, you have to pay for it right? Yes, obviously. Does it come cheap? Simple answer no. Can Proton with the relatively small volume of cars (at most 250,000 a year compared to millions of Mitsu, VW or Hyundai) afford these new technology without increasing their car prices really drastically? No. If Proton actually did increase their car prices drastically, would anyone buy them? No. Would they be bashed like hell especially in blogs like this? Yes. Are Proton stupid enough to do it? No (not entirely true, because I know of an example when something like this happened. I can't share this info though…sorry, confidentiality!). Please guys, again I'm telling you… please don't talk from your arses. It is becoming a bad habit.
The main problem with Proton now is the lack of quality, not technology transfer, not platform sharing, not lack of new models, but quality. Their QC is abysmal, and Proton (albeit not out loudly) wouldn't deny this fact. They know they have problems with quality control. The previous management failed to improve on it, probably they had so much vision for proton, seeing far across the horizon, but failed to see the main problem right underneath their noses. Probably, the lack of quality originates deep from the vendors, and Proton couldn't reject those parts and components because the vendor is a bumiputera company. (Even though I am a bumiputera, I really hate the fact that all these bumiputera companies are fat on their arses becuase of the privilages they get, without even caring to improve themselves, without caring to compete, without earning the right for those privilages. These people should be shot right in their nostrils! And those privilages should be long lifted, "sampai bila melayu boleh nak berdikari? buat malu je…chiss")
Now a new management has taken over. What I'm saying is, just give this new management some time. At least a couple more years for them to rectify everything. After that only should we judge them. Lets hope for the sake of Proton workers and their families, that this new management get it right. If not, it might spell the end for everyone.
…and a new beginning for the rest of us ^^
Hi Zongtwi bro, (KAWAN) :)
You got the points there! But only some areas, I am talking about competitiveness issue.
Okay fair enough to POTONG to improve the Quality issue first, as everybody knows the customers are complaining about it. So, once the quality issue done, can POTONG models be competitive with others? That's me biggest concerns and the main argument over here.
If POTONG mission is only to survive in Bolehland, then this strategic might be good as Temporary countermeasure (Like PANADOL again) just before the G takes away the protection in BOLEHLAND. Then what next?, How about Global markets and after the AFTA implemented in Bolehland??
Just an example, New Mitsu Outlander 2006 model with all those safety features (JNCAP 6 Stars) and High tech systems available (Including Aluminium roof panel, ASC, CVT 6 speeds, MIVEC,….., new chassis) but the price is only from RM70k to RM90k. If POTONG models is cost RM60K without any safety features like Airbags and New high Tech systems, Do you think it still can Sell?? I bet 99% customers will goes to Mitsu!! So, could you please explains us, What POTONG's long terms plans is???
YAU MOU GAU……CHOR!! I'm Just wish to know more about yours and make clear of my points!! No angry one …Ha…ha…ha.. :P
aiya.. i think every move proton does is wasteful and ridiculous.. the smartest way for this weak company to do now is to CLOSE DOWN! therefore, this company should now make proposals on how to transfer its workers and employees to other companies.
proton in mandarin means MORON
therefore…forever cannot be GOOD
Iamgood
yo,
If we cant develop our own platform,
might as well dun have potong…
When in business we must have sum selling points.
After 20 years .. no original selling points still copying ..tats wat I call cetak rompak.
Wat economy of sacle… if u think of economy of scale might as well dun waste our money on potong .. go for sumting small lah.. nooooooo we go for d whole car then talking we cant develop d platform becos of economil of scale.. How myopic lah….??????????????
quality is one issue that POTONG need to improve, but on the other than, new technology have to come in at the same time. we can't wait phase by phase in this kind of situation… but go at the same time to face the AFTA era coming soon. am i right? if we go phase by phase, until then, POTONG jadi TAK DA lo…
cheers…
Short term…increase quality. Long term, improve brand name (especially to all the Malaysians) increase sales, and increase volume of production. Hopefully by doing this, the vendors would also respond and improve the quality of their parts with more competitive prices. Increase volume production, lower prices (hopefully!!!), better quality cars.
People are comparing Proton with Mitsu, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai etc. They have huge global customer base, with car sales in the Millions. They can afford to have all those technology and improvements, with only a slight increase in their car prices.
The total volume of cars Proton are coming out now just doesn't justify adding new technology into them without a price hike. I'm very sad to say this but the previous management somehow didn't realise this fact, and these steps (of improving quality and brand name) should have been implemented like 10 years ago!
Right now, since they can't compete with other brand cars technology and accessory wise, they have to justify people buying Protons. As SEE FU said, people would definitely buy the Mitsu even though it is about RM20k more. So Proton NEEDS to give the cutomers more value for their money in other ways. 0% interest for 5 years, for example, or probably to reduce their profit margins to further reduce their car prices, WITHOUT loss of quality. These are all marketing stuff, and I am no marketing expert. I'm sure there are loads of experts up there in Proton. They sure can think of something out.
Two short term steps, firstly improve quality. secondly increase car production volume and sales. Then they can start thinking of competing with the bigger players, and look at long term steps to be taken.
Mr. SEE FU, no hard feelings man, this is just a blog, we are free to give our views, and we have to always agree to dissagree.
The Chinese Believes OLD LOVE STILL BEST…………………….. well Proton.. is time for u to go for it since MIT in trouble tooo.. buy them over…….who knows… in future.. we will hve EVO GEN X ,,,, hehehe
Yes, that's how discussions should be. If it comes to a point whether no resolution can be agreed to – we'll just have to agree to disagree. Everyone has a right to a different point of view.
hrmm…20 years after 1st model roll out..nothin happen much..even NO 4wd family sedan..only hav rebadged lancer..useless design..why dis happen?shouldnt be like this..
short term is what they are looking at, if it works then maybe they will flesh out a feasible (new) long term plan and stick to it
the way i see it the long term is already over, its been 20 bloody years. maybe we shouldnt have compared them to japanese industry giants, but look at hyundai which is 2x younger and is given less market protection. They even have their own bloody platform and managed to break into the USA market which is the most demanding automobile market in the whole (with strict safety and emission regulations) world.
the only place where proton is selling is malaysia because the government have us by the balls. more rebadged lancers is not what we need. maybe a rebadged evo though, not some rubbish R3 or Gti model with old-ass engine.
Swee: Bro, Hyundai is 2x younger in comparison to who? Maybe to the Japanese big guns i.e. Honda, Toyota, etc, but certainly not to Proton. They have been around since the 60's. Check it out at:
http://worldwide.hyundai-motor.com/
Go to "About Hyundai" at the top navigation bar.
Just sharing some info with another of Paul sensei's readers la… :D
But your point about rebadging cars is so true man! Other carmakers are coming up with new models every 6 months on average. Our Proton? "Wira Limited Edition, Satria Limited Edition," and various other "Editions." The same chicken shit cars with stupid addons!
I think a good idea for a "Limited Edition" Proton would be something like this…
"Here's the new Proton XXXXX (whatever model la) Limited Edition! Truly a masterpiece of creation as everything is guarranteed to work fine! Yes! Even the POWER WINDOWS will not get spoilt within three months! All rubber linings are made from the highest grade rubber and are assured to fit in perfectly!
Our Service Centres will give you our customer, our number one priority, almost royal treatment when you bring your masterpiece in for its routine checks. No more delays! Only the best, newest and original parts will be used! Charges will be miniscule because at Proton, we reward our masterpiece owners!
Order your Limited Edition now, as you will probably never ever see another Proton that is guarranteed to work in 100% order from the time it is bought until the time it is sold! BUY NOW!!!" :P :P :P
sounds like a scam if they released THAT tomorrow haha
Whatever there are trying to do, a market survey is a must. They must have customers feedback service. Kia@Naza do this. They call the customers back. Perodua do a market survey before releasing any new car. From this only can the manufacturers know what people want and need are.If not Proton only become 'syok sendiri' car manufacturer. I think lotus acqusation is enough for proton to go beyond but it seems like although Proton is the mother company, her 'daugther' doesnt want to help her mother and worst the 'daughter' don't learn anything from her mother. Not like the Petronas ad for Hari Raya.:)
i will say, just close proton… final.
close do not just close, sell the factory and everything else.
just let proton be in the history book only, for our childrten to read.
zongtwi… hope u r right about the new management… cause i believe all the rakyat wanted a value for money product.. and if this product comes from malaysia, we will support it. but then again, is sad to know that the previous management have done so much damage to proton's image… why is there no law suit to those vendors, i mean warning letter or termination!! anyone that responsible for all this? i think proton is weak… the whole management is weak… i want to know if anyone who will stand up in proton and bash those f**king vendors who give low grade product… i just wonder if there will ever be a hero in proton doing that for the sake of proton… savvy = sux (period), Gen-2 = good look, quality sux, Waja = good but expensive, iswara = sux, perdana = good but expensive, juara = pls go to hell, arena = pls go to hell hell, wira = the best seller but quality a bit sux…
What abt. the faith of EON-Mitshubishi JV? I also heard abt. Proton interested to form JV with Hyundai, and also the faith of Sime-Darby ~ Hyundai & Oriental ~ Hyundai. I believe ONLY Malaysia have a unique, 2 Franchise holders with same brand, if Proton join in the crowd, don't you all think THREE are too crowded?
Dear Zongtwi,
If we have develope own own platform
Y r we exchanging technology with other company on their old platform?
Dun tell me we develop a new platform using old technology or we jz developean old outdated platform and called it new….hahaha …
Concerning Lotus .
I am sure the company was sold to us ” lock stock and barrel “.
I dun think Potong is stupid enuf to buy only d brand and not d tech, r they?
If d tech is there Y cant we use it???
Y should d daughter help if we dun kno how 2 use her help?
Y buy if u dun want 2 use it?
“Y buy a server when u need a simple computer for internet or email .wasting money”
“Can always say for long term investment mah. LOL .. tech gets outdated as fast as my computer .. if we can develop it dun pay for it lah” Want 2 learn and develop tech? …..sent more bright student to the tech U overseas .. cheaper man.. Look a Taiwan and India … So much manpower … real manpower.. real brain.. real tech.. even new tech.. Look at our UM.. whrere r we on the tech chart … hehehe??
doc2mee said,
November 4, 2005 @ 2:40 pm
yo,
If we cant develop our own platform,
might as well dun have potong…
When in business we must have sum selling points.
After 20 years .. no original selling points still copying ..tats wat I call cetak rompak.
————————————————————–
Waja was build using Proton's own developed platform…Proton are capable of developing their own platforms. But by sharing platform can save time and money, which makes a lot of sense.
Also Perodua are just rebadging Daihatsus, with a touch of Toyota technology and quality. Nothing original, except probably some face lifts here and there…I don't see anyone complaining?
haji said,
November 5, 2005 @ 6:59 am
… I think lotus acqusation is enough for proton to go beyond but it seems like although Proton is the mother company, her ‘daugther’ doesnt want to help her mother and worst the ‘daughter’ don’t learn anything from her mother. Not like the Petronas ad for Hari Raya.:)
———————————————————–
I agree, Proton – Lotus UK relationship isn't the best. This is caused by so many reasons, and I think both parties are partly to blame.
close proton said,
November 5, 2005 @ 2:24 pm
i will say, just close proton… final.
close do not just close, sell the factory and everything else.
just let proton be in the history book only, for our childrten to read.
———————————————————–
I assume you're a very rich guy, Mr. 'Close Proton'. By suggesting that, I assume you would be the one then to support all the workers and their families if Proton close down.
Paul said,
November 4, 2005 @ 8:09 pm
Yes, that’s how discussions should be. If it comes to a point whether no resolution can be agreed to – we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Everyone has a right to a different point of view.
———————————————————–
Paul, I love how you manage this blog man! You post interesting and controversial articles, and then just sit quiet seeing everyone else argue and talk about it. You just chip in a few words once in a while. hehe Brilliant!
Doc2mee my friend,
Proton have developed their own platform, but it was only designed for the Waja, and similar sized cars. If Proton wants to come up with an MPV, it can't use the same platform. But to come out with a brand new platform, it would cost Millions of ringgit and at least 1 and a half years of development. It makes sense to share with other OEMs, everyone is doing it. So with the money they save, they can hopefully bring the price down, which is what everyone here in Malaysia wants. It's not like Proton are buying a platform of 10-20 years old, if they actually buy a platform it would be of 2-3 years old. If you've got RM200M lying around in your back pocket, then please donate it to Proton, they can definitely develop their own platform with no problem whatsoever.
The situation with Lotus is very complicated, I know, because I am working in Lotus, here in UK. Proton bought Lotus as share holders only, they didn't take over the company. In other words, Lotus and Proton are 2 different companies, it is just a coincident that Proton owns 100% of Lotus' shares. The main reason for this is that both companies don't want Lotus to lose their brand name.
Lotus are rich with new technology, they pioneered a lot of new things, ride and handling, callibration, weight reduction, NVH etc. But these things were developed in the UK, and they are expensive IPs. These new technology are at Proton's disposal, but they just have to pay the same costs as other OEMs to use those new technology (probably slightly cheaper, owner's discount heh). Like I said before, Proton with their low volume of production just can't afford to use the new technology without a huge price hike. Everybody would be more turned off buying a Proton. The one technology Proton is using, ride and handling, and no one seems to be impressed with that. I wonder why is everyone so obsessed with Proton's lack of new technology, but the one new technology used by Proton in their new cars aren't appreciated at all. Hmmm..anyone knows the answer?
Yes, you're right, more students can be sent to overseas unis. But the only way to learn these new things is by doing it hands on, by working within the industry. Proton are sending their engineers here to learn and become more advanced engineers. That is the best form of technology transfer, because it is very cheap, and that knowledge can be passed down to new engineers in Proton.
From what you are saying, you see technology as actual physical things, like hybrid engines, or vvt. Yes, you are right to say that, but it goes much deeper than that. Technology is a concept, a kind of knowledge to do things in a different and more efficient way. Say hybrid technology, it is a concept of assimilating mechanical power generator with an electrical power generator. But each OEM has their own way of doing it, don't you agree? 4wd systems, it is a concept of power distribution to all 4 tyres. But OEMs with 4wd systems do it differently, some more advanced than others. Some with 4wdd systems, i.e. 4w dynamic drive systems, the power distribution on each tyre change depending on the road condition etc. And concepts and knowledge can never get outdated man, it can never get outdated.
Aiyooo panjangnya aku tulis…sorry!
do you think by closing proton, the price of your beloved dream car will go down?
well said ztongwi…. most of wat u posted here are quite sensible and rational… i salute u! well as u had said, well we can give Proton a few years to see if it will improve or not… but then again within these few years, Proton will have to bear with a sizable loss of opportunity cost… meaning, most buyers nowadays will have their sight set on some other models before considering Proton…
what ride and handling? that one oso curi from the mitsubishi evolution cars one. same piece, same part, even fits the same! hahaha! the only reason why the cars sell, is because of the loans and its the cheapest thing you can buy on the market. coz every other good thing is hiked beyond what its worth for!! imagine if the cheapest thing you buy here is alreay much more expensive than the medium range cars overseas. fork, dont you feel pumped?? imagine, all of the bmw/mercedes owners can have jaguars, or rolls for the same money!! hahahah! damn we get pumped like hell for old tech. what a ripp off. and they say the gov is helping the people, well some of the people… just not the majority…
Wht's de point? If p1 r willing to learn, absorp they r gd enuf & being responsible manu by now. Why revisit them? Tak tau malu kah? Just get rid of those fatty-stomach management team tt suck $. Go for another head n try use non-bumi.. Wht they know abt their prodn as themselves r not drivin it?
Does anyone out there agreed that "Product itself does Sell itself and not the Salesman did selling the products"
I'm strongly believed in most cases (99%) the PRODUCTS itself sell itself NOT because of The Salesman SKILLs are good and making the Sales. Apparently, the Salesman can only explains the products performance and find out customers needs, keep on finding customers but they can't change CUSTOMERS mind or their budget, requirements and needs. Unless Salesman are cheating those customers!!
Example: SAWI and MAWI case. Let's say the price are the same and SAWI got Airbags and ABS, but MAWI doesn't offer any as standards, can the salesman convience the CUSTOMERS said that MAWI is safer than SAWI and better crash performance without those features!!?? I guess Only the customers who doesn't understand what is Airbags and ABS system will agreed and buy it because of the salesman said. In other words, the Salesman is cheating customers especially to moron customers.
Therefore, if POTONG's models really valued for Money, I think the products itself will sell itself no needs depend on Marketing stuffs, like POTONG car's sales records 10 years ago. And I don't think the ZERO interest for 5 years ~ until 10 years or lower the profit margin is a good long terms plans for POTONG. I don't think the "PANADOL" can helps in this case.
Conculsion is, without High technology and quality products (New technologies and Brands) come out from POTONG in the next TWO years, I don't think ppl will continued buying POTONG, I means the market share will be continued dropping to less than 10% in such a HIGH competition environment soon. Especially Direct competition will come from NAZI auto and P2. :(
So, Ztongwi bro. How do you think??
Don't you agree with me?
YAU MOU GAU…..CHOR!!
Why would Volkswagen partner and transfer tech if they own 5% or 10% proton shares? If they own 51%, then, its a different ballgame. Would Mitsubishi consider transfering tech if they don't have a place on the board of directors and dont own controlling shares?
Any business is about money. No 51%. No control. Why would anybody transfer their business secrets or tech?
So here's the meat guys.
VW wanted 41% of PROTON; the government does not want to give that much.
I have it on good authority that on Wednesday October 26th Azlan Hashim of PROTON met up with William S Botwick, the MD of General Motors Thailand.
The meeting was in Malaysia, and although the promoters of the meeting was informed that the meeting was to "explore how GM can play a part in PROTON's future post AFTA", it is believed that GM made an offer to become partners.
GM's request: 21% equity in holding, but management seats in R&D and Sales i.e. Edar.
Government is apparently seriously considering the opportunity, as the VW talks expired in late August.
Yes, Mitsubishi in in the picture, but like most of you pointed out, nothing really solid came out of the 20 year deal previously. The government is very unlikely to repeat history. Japs will be Japs.
It's an interesting story really. Astro News first broke the story on Friday October 28; it was carried in the Edge Weekly the following week's edition.
GM and PROTON is to meet again before the end of November, likely in Bangkok.
Keep you posted…
POTONG after all these years pi mai pi mai tang tu jugak, nak rujuk balik dgn Mitsubishi. nampak sangat management POTONG memang tak ada vision. Nak team up dgn Mitsubishi lagi, satu-satunya company Jepun yang dok asyik rugi. Company dia saja yang rugi, Toyota, Honda, Mazda etc… semua untung berlipat kali ganda.
Satu lagi aku tengok, kebanyakan company kereta CEO dia ada background dalam engineering. Tapi POTONG punya CEO (mahaleeel lah) ada degree dlm ….. HISTORY (sejarah). Memag patut POTONG jadi sejarah pun. Ha!ha!ha!.
Tak boleh nak salahkan pekerja POTONG. Patut disalahkan management POTONG yang tak ada wawasan. Dia orang tak boleh tengok ke, industri kereta global suffering from over-capacity, sebab tulah semua company consolidate. Ford dah team up dgn Mazda dan Volvo,Chrysler dgn Mercedes, Subaru dgn Saab dan macam macam lagi. Tapi POTONG ni berlagak, macam lah dia boleh berdiri sendiri. Patutnya dahlama dia cari partner untuk survive. Semua ini sebab management tak ada wawasan lah.
Macam mana dgn komen aku ni.Betul tak??
Why ppl like to hold on something which is unprofitable….
Tengok lah!
Quote from Zongtwi
"And concepts and knowledge can never get outdated man, it can never get outdated." Itu lah konsep POTONG.
For me
NO CHANGE NO PROGRESS LOR
BUT NOT ALL CHANGES ARE PROGRESSIVE.
Sebab itulah kita kena pakai tech 10 tahun dulu sebab concept and knowledge can never get outdated.
Yo any u guy still use a XT for ur computer .???. Me think potong still pakai XT atau AT lor….for their dept ahhhh? afterall old PC is as good as new PC.. XT samalah saja dengan Pentium .. sama concept tapi cepat sikit saja.. sama Tech .. silicon tech lor… wafer fabrication lain sikit saja
TODAY TECHNOLOGY TOMORROW ……tapi MS untung POTONG rugi……
Aisehh…ingatkan dah tak payah nak komen lagi…tapi kena jugak…
Mr Doc2mee, please understand that the CONCEPT and KNOWLEDGE can never get outdated. How we apply them, obviously can get outdated. We just need to make improvements on the concept, try to make it more efficient and cost worthy. If you don't believe me, then here is an example. How long ago do you think the hybrid technology has been available? 2 years? 4 years? 50 years? Wrong!!! The hybrid technology has been available for 105 years. Yes, 105 years.
History
"The first successful hybrid-electric car was engineered by Ferdinand Porsche in 1899. A recent working prototype was built by Herman Wouk's brother Victor Wouk (known as the Godfather of the Hybrid) into a 1972 Buick Skylark provided by GM for the 1970 Federal Clean Car Incentive Program, but the program was killed by the EPA in 1976."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_car#History
Ever cared to check this out before commenting on what I said? Please people, bad habit…remember? Don't talk out of your arses.
Of course we have to change, of course we have to improve things. but the most important thing is to have basic knowledge of the whole thing. Without basic knowledge, you can't do anything. I am an automotive engineer, currently designing airboxes. If you ask me how to improve it, then ofcourse, I can try and improve it based on the CONCEPT that, a good airbox needs to have the smallest amount or pressure loss possible. If you ask me how to improve on…say, wireless applications, ofcourse I would fail, because I have NO IDEA what the concept behind it is. And that is where benefits of buying Lotus comes in. To train Proton engineers on how to become more advanced engineers, so that later on Proton can develop their own technology based on all the concepts and basic knowledge that they have.
Seefu, if what you say is true, than no one in their right minds would spend millions of cash on marketing and adevertising. Radio and TV would go bankrupt, as well as magazines and newspapers. You've got to do all you can to compete mate, and marketing is the essence of business. Especially, in a non-level playing field that is Malaysian automotive sector. What, you think all the other OEMs trying to sell their cars aren't doing it? They are competing with local car brands by putting all those accessories in their cars, without a price hike. If they didn't do that, they can never compete. But they can afford to do that, because these companies are backed by millions of car sales gobally. That is al part of their marketing strategy. If their cars sell without them bothering to put all those extra features, of course they won't put them in! Common sense, isn't it?
Choi, Mahaleel dah xde dah kat situ…skrg new management. Kite tengok dulu la macam mane management baru ni punye polisi. baru la komen atau kutuk. bagi chance kat diorg nak majukan Proton. Lps 2-3 tahun kite tegok, klu xde improvements, baru la kite maki hamun Proton sama sama.
Sorry, ah zongtwi. You're off by one year- http://www.hybridcars.com/history.html
"1898
The German Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, at age 23, built his first car, the Lohner Electric Chaise. It was the world's first front-wheel-drive. Porsche's second car was a hybrid, using an internal combustion engine to spin a generator that provided power to electric motors located in the wheel hubs. On battery alone, the car could travel nearly forty miles."
I couldn't help but do a little research myself as I didn't want to talk out my arse…
Emm… I'm afraid that Malaysian can not "pump" Proton any longer. Economy no good, fuel price increases, salary remains the same…
If Proton fail to look for a partner to open-up the foreign market… then no need to talk about "2-3 years ahead". Good luck for Proton's new management…
zongtwi, interesting facts.
we all agree that our patience are running out. to some others, even gone long time ago. but there are some others who still have faith and hopes. i hope the new management sees this and wake up.
i drove a gen2 auto last raya belongs to my cousin. he got it late july. lucky for him he got a "close to perfect" car, means no problem with it (so far). except for the autobox, felt sluggish like the hyundai matrix that my brother bought last september. (made me thinks they shared the same transmission!)
i think proton are not too far away from their objectives. they just need to get it right. they need to start doin it now. what happen in the past is history that they should've learnt.
me? i'm still waiting….until then, the Kelisa and C5 will do.
Ahah…nice one marmitecrab. Thanks for the correction. I just quoted what wikipedia said. I guess someone needs to tell them they have the wrong year for that…
Since when did buying a car turn out to be a gamble instead? Why should we be made to buy a car only to return it to the workshop for warranty claims? Everyone is right. We're tired of second-rate cars from Proton.
I'm reminded of the TM billboard ad where it shows a Lotus in the background and someone vandalising a public phone booth in the foreground with the tagline – 1st world facilities, 3rd world mentality. This brings to mind Proton's facilities, 1st class assembly plants but 3rd world mentality QC. And the beauty of it all, we're still buying them cars.
Beautifully said, Mr Marmitecrab. Brilliant.
yo,
Concept macam hipothesis mesti pakai otak untuk development,
Takakan tak pakai otak atau knowledge .. mana dapat development.
Kalau lah selalu pakai concept lama dan knowledge lama .. dapatlah POTONG LAMA.
No wonder TM ( a history graduate) jadi BOSS
I am sure TOYOTA Pirius tak pakai Hybrid engine yang Ferdinand reka?
Kalau pakai kenalah bayar royalti yang banyak ..
Tetapi rekaan baru mereka sendiri…..
Concept itu idea saja tapi kenapa concept dan idea orang lain lagi baik ??
Kerana kompani lain ada visi dan idea … POTONG ada KONSEP & KNOWLEDGE LAMO…kalau tak oudated pun sudah " tak dipakai lagi" ataupun sudah di impoov …
Bilakah kita dapat HYBRID POTONG ??? Gasoline banyak mahalah … Lamo sikit mungkin kena kayoh basikal .. LOR
Is there any possibility Proton will develop powerful yet efficient diesel engines, as diesel more cheaper and cleaner than petrol.Its a trend now in Europe for small cc diesel engines. Hybrid is ok, but any other options is welcomed.
Hei Zongtwi, :)
I think you have mis-understood my points. I never said Marketing is bullshits or not important and not necessary. But, I said MOST CASES, Products itself sell self at the first.
Let's do a test now. You and I are cusumers too. Just ask yourself, how did you decide to buy any products especially VERY Large and Expensive one (5 to 30 years loan), Example like House and Car??? Based on marketing advertisement or someone recommendation or you yourself judgement based on badget and needs. Of course as a prudent consumers (not a moron customers), they should understand the products in details. For examples: The maintance cost, spare parts cost, warranty and service, safety features ABS, Airbags, crash performance, Alloy Rims size and type, Exterior styling, interior styling plus comfortable seat for long distance travels, audio system and all those gagdet in TOTAL. I don't believed your decision is only based on the Salesman talks or Marketing advertisment only. RIGHTS!!??
I am talking about if we have choices to choose, not like 10 years ago where only POTONG and P2 are available with affordable price to RAKYAT. When you have no choice it is totally different. And it is not really a true Market in Bolehland, please compare to other countries like JAPAN.
For me, the marketing strategic and planning is important and should work together with the Manufacturing and R&D at the begining of Developing a New products. The input from Marketing ppl to Engineering ppl is very very importants. The feed back from customers should be informed to Manufactuing especial R&D ppl to make a good products. I strongly believed, It will be less effective to boost the products sales after the products had been developed especially the products itself is out of customer's needs.
Just another Example: let's say 90% of custormer demanding MPV with hybrid and price RM60K and it is available on other OEM now. But POTONG only have Satria (3 doors) old type engine and price RM55K. Please tell me how your marketing ppl can promote these Customers to buy POTONG instead of other OEM MPV. If you hire DAVID COPPERFIELD maybe there is a chance of 1% those customers might change their mind to Satria. Where those ppl are CHEATING by the MAGIC!!! Ha…ha…ha…… :) Agreed???
Keep on reducing the price is not a good Marketing Strategy and is provent to be failed someday. (Oversea marketing plans of POTONG, is FAILED!!)
YAU MOU GAU……CHOR!!! Please correct me if I am wrong. :P
See Fu,
You're wrong. You make so many incomprehensible points….I don't even know where to begin. In the first place, products do not self-sell. I don't know which product in the world you are referring to that has the ability to self-sell without some form of marketing/advertising.
Secondly, you use houses as an example. How can??? Just thinking about is giving me a headache. Then you talk about buying a car and looking at the TOTAL package first. What country are you living in? Can you afford that kind of car? A simple example of adhering to your criteria – someone who might be able to fulfill most of what you said would be Toyota. Their cheapest car is the Vios at over 80k. How many of us can afford it? And in terms of exterior styling, it's not as pretty as the Altis, and the Altis is over 100k. Some more cannot afford.
And then, you have another paragraph about something that is most likely taken out from a Marketing textbook. This is Bolehland, lah, not Lalaland. Things you said will only work in a matured and saturated market where the customers actually matter. We're not there yet.
And you last paragraph…..headache getting worse! Anyone got Panadol???
Crab arr!!
Sorry for the confusion, maybe you don't understand the issue that I foresee about at the moment. :)
I am talking about Future market trend (From 2 to 10 years), not at the moment. Also I had mentioned that, Bolehland's market is not really a real market too. Some more POTONG is a global company not only in Bolehland. I think if POTONG wanna to Sell their products to other countries like JAPAN or USA not only in 3rd world countries, then what I said before is true, Rights?
Altis, Vios??? It is current products choice we had. In the near future, due to AFTA and tax reduction more New models will be selling in BOLEHLAND. Also, I say "FOR EXAMPLE ONLY!!!!" can you understand "Example" means???
Don't just look at Bolehland only. Looks beyond it, I don't wants to be Jagur KAMPUNG only!! Please look farther!! Especially in Japan and other countries. We want POTONG to be successed in GLOBAL like TOYOTA.
HONDA CIVIC HYBRID models 3 stage i-VTEC 1.3L +IMA (performance similar to 1.8L engine) plus all those ABS, Astandards gadgets…the car PRICE is only RM70K in JAPAN now. Why not possible??? Pls find out from the website.
YAU MOU GAU….CHOR!!! By the way, I got PANADOL with me, how many you needs? RM10 for two!!
Dear Zongtwi,
4 Years ago I bought Proton Satria 1.3. I have been using it for 3 years before trade it with a used Waja 2001. Well , I hate Proton for all the bad quality (after 3 month aircon compressor broke down, 6 month later water pump not working, after 2 years all the vibration noise started to entertain my journey, ride and handling not that good as compared to continental car, which the Satria feel like other Japanese car). For 3 years I curse Proton and I keep telling all my friend how I hate my car for all the problem it gave me. Well, at that time I'm still young. I'm an engineer too Zongtwi.
Owning a Waja (I cannot afford other Japanese car or a used BMW) for a reason I'm married and have a kid and I became a family oriented man. Honestly, what Proton telling their customer about Waja "Safe and in Control" is true. The handling is superb in winding road. Engine is reliable (I'm using an auto version) and the autobox has been correctly selected for engine power output. Now my perception about Proton has changed, I do believe Proton have improved much starting from Waja and so on. For other people who might think I never drive another make, well, my father own a 1992 Volvo 240 and a E220 Mercedes 1990 Masterpiece (I like the car thou I cannot afford to pay road tax), I also have test drive my friend's Nissan Sylvia S14 Single Turbo and a Nissan Skyline GTS Version (auto), test drive also 1996 Honda Accord 2.2, Civic EK4 1995, Kembara, Kelisa, Kenari and many more. For me, the ride and handling that Waja has to offer is like a magic when it came to drive through corner without braking at 120km/h. I have followed a Singaporean regiestered Nissan Sunny 1.6VTC last week at Jalan Mersing-Rompin (whoever own a Civic must try this road) and all I can say is, Sunny is suck for too much understeer ( I still can overtake it at at 120km/h sharp corner). After that a 2.2 Honda Accord overtake me on a straight lane at 130km/h and guess what he still need to brake to enter a corner at just 90km/h while my Waja are just a few inch from it's tail and keep pushing the Accord infront, then I overtake him easily on 100km long widing road. I do appreciate the Lotus ride and handling installed on new generation of Proton. For Proton engineers out there, I salute you guys and please keep up the good job. May you guys succeed in the future.
Regards
Fizie49,
You sound like you were racing in F1. Kinda dangerous to be driving like that on winding roads, isn't it? Some more you are family-man. Tsk, tsk.
You are also a strong advocate for the Waja with the handling being your main selling point. Put most people's contentions goes beyond handling itself and must look at the entire package. After all, a car is the second biggest investment for most ordinary folk and must be wisely spent. You cannot overlook the fact that it has amongst other things: power window problems, poorly designed dashboard, cheap quality materials all round, weird noise from engine and a host of other complaints if you really ask around. My dad drives a Waja and I get to drive it once in awhile and I have to say, the overall package is somewhat lacking for a car that costs so much.
In reply to Zongtwi's post.
You have already seen the writing on the wall. Why have a national car at all?
Imagine the impact on the economy if we are to give up on Proton. Many more ppl will have more disposable income. They will definitely spend it. Some will invest it and others will just save it. It will be a boost to the economy rather than subsidizing a project that has no hope at all except for national pride.
you're right fizie when talking about your exp with your Waja… but I think you're one of the lucky person owend one without any annoying probs…
I think its time now that Proton need to think any future models that can be sell in other countries (eg. for US or Europe market or elsewhere, NOT in Bolehland) where they can applied the most advanced tech they got from Lotus (or where else, even it tiru punya..). If those new models are selling like kacang putih over there, with resonable price I think those bashing to Proton will reduce more :)
After then will be lots of profits to get more and more tech that R&D Proton need, agree? why need to close down wan? tak sayang harta sendiri ker? The quality must come first, if they cannot get the best with the lowest price of those parts, just discard the vendor (its the vendor that needs to close down, not Proton) takkan takde lagi reputable vendor in this Bolehland? tak payah la nak import lagi those parts, it makes our money flow outside more…
Put the politician aside, the management should not be burden to them, the management should know that they are responsible to the shareholders only.
Sapa kata hantar students to overseas is not incur cost? its also costly la wei… kalo nak the best staff is to urge our grads to work in the reputable car – making companies in other part of the word and asking them back to work for Proton after working some eg.10 years… so they will truly bring back the exp and tech or whatsoever that Proton was lookin for…
so then we will gets whats-so-eva thing in our local Proton with the cheaper price compared to another brand model, right?so then the Proton will be the best choice after all !!
no need argue much… this is bolehland and it's how things are gonna be no matter how much we bising and cry… wat? threaten them with our election voting power ah? pls, do we even have any other choice? ditelan mati bapak, diluah mati emak….
i have already give up lah… if want good car, be ready to be strangled and pumped, if cannot afford, buy smaller or 2nd hand car… we don have to buy Potong if u don want to… heck i don even care how Potong is gonna be…
petrol naik, tol naik, elektrik naik, air naik, harga barang naik, gaji jugak tak naik… how to improve on standards of living?
dapat gaji kena bayar income tax, duit yang baki tu bila nak beli barang lain pun kena tax lagi… beli rumah tax ni tax tu, beli kereta kena duti ni duti tu, beli makanan, baju dan keperluan lain pun kena cukai lagi… hah, ni start tahun 2007 kita kena bagi GST pulak… cukai yang merangkumi semua barangan dan perkhidmatan… janji, apa-apa saja kalau kena korek dompet, maka kena bayar cukai sekali…
cuba fikir… barang apa yang kita beli tak kena cukai??? dah beli kereta kena bayar harga kereta+duti eksais, bayar loan kena interest, lepas tu governmet ambik tax dengan bank. beli insurans? government ambik tax dengan syarikat insurans… beli sayur dan ikan dan daging? hah, macamlah kerajaan tak tax mereka? and do u think those businessman will so baik hati absorb all the cost? sorry-lah… semua cukai will be pass on to the final buyer… in fact the price of things that we pay, a large portion of it are taxes instead of for the thing itself…
this is boleh-land… where more than half of our income goes to the tax coffers of the government… wat are u gonna do about it? no, wat can u do about it? nak lari cukai? there's nothing we can do but to shut up and swallow the bitter pill…
aku dah berserah nasib dah… rezeki kurniaan tuhan… berapa banyak yang aku dapat, berapa banyak aku tak dapat, berapa banyak aku kena perah dan cekik, aku dah tak kisah… bukannya boleh bawak masuk kubur pun… kalau dah ditentukan bila nak mati, jangan nak kata bawak kereta Potong, kalau bawak kereta BMW atau Volvo atau Mercedes pun accident mati jugak…
Dear Marmitecrab and Stewpid,
My Waja has a power window problem (driver side) but I can still correct the problem DIY. Dashboard also produce a vibration noise. Glovebox cover still have problem like Wira. Engine mounting's rubber cushion cracked. Other than that, I'm still looking forward to complete my list of problem for my own Waja. A lot of my friend use Waja and most of them satisfy with their car. One of my friend once told me like this "aku paling puas hati kereta nie". So am I the only person in this country who have this kind of feeling? And yeah, even at the launch of Waja back in 1999, I heard a lot of rumours about how bad is the car. Some people say it is still using Mitsubishi base, engine underpower and so on. To the people who talk about this thing-rumours,slander etc, I want to ask them a question, do they actually involve in the development of Proton car? Do they actually have a clear picture of what really happen in Proton R&D? Do they actually work in Lotus and seems to know everything about Lotus-Proton teamwork? From my opinion is, they just make an assumption based on nothing, and they keep on talking which they know nothing at all. But hey, people tend to like this kind of conversation thou. I want to ask you guys something, say like this, you gather all of your friend who have the best knowledge, best degree,with the high class engineering skills, the best ever management which you think the most perfect team in this world, and with their ability with given a million of capital, I challenge them to design and mass produce their own car. The car must have a world class package, safety standard comply to international safety body, high powered vehicle, good ride and handling, good brake, overall package must be very good. And I challenge other country also, e.g Singapore, Philippine, Thailand, Taiwan, Australia, to design a car in their own country (local people, born and live in the country) and mass produce them. I want to see how well the product will be. Anybody dare to take this challenge?
Fizie49,
I'm looking forward to seeing your list of Waja problems in the future :-)
Actually, I've posted this awhile back before in another topic. I was one of the few who went to see the Waja a few years before launch to give feedback/comment of it. Like I've said before, the engineers/designers was not even present to listen to the feedback. Instead, it was done by marketing research personnel (women) who admitted they knew nothing about cars. In my opinion, it was a waste of time. I did give some feedback regarding dashboard, design, etc. and how they should go for a more original look. Guess what? They didn't listen. Because everyone else there was telling them how much it looked like a Mercedes/Honda/BMW/etc.
Finally, they asked how much we would pay for something like this. It ranged from 50k to about 70k as we didn't know what type of engine they had in mind. Test drive? Couldn't, as the whole car was made of wood.
So before you shoot of your mouth and say the rest of the world doesn't have any idea what they're saying, – "From my opinion is, they just make an assumption based on nothing, and they keep on talking which they know nothing at all.", please check first. I don't think you are in a position to claim to know everything as well.
Finally, I want to ask you. Who are you to "challenge" people/countries to come up with your so-called dream car? That was a total waste of time and energy.
Agree with you Marmitecrab, I don't know everything and I don't talk for anything that I don't know. For things I've posted earlier, it is best at my knowledge and what I've experienced.
A question for you Marmitecrab, do you have actually visited a Proton R&D? Have you participate with Lotus and Proton R&D discussion or meeting? Do you sit there and watch them working? Do you know how they design a car? Do you make a decision for them for design approval? Do you know what kind of tool they're using? What kind of software? How they test a car? What kind of tehnology/skills did Lotus transfer to Proton? How much money to develop a car? How much time to develop a car? What kind of material for each part? What is the cheap part everyone claiming? A lot of question actually. Can you give me an answer? I really want to know because a lot of people seems to know more than the Proton CEO itself.
I have some experience in the questions you have asked fizie49, unfortunately I am not in a position to share them with you. What I can definitely say is that I have mixed feelings of those experiences. Most of the time, I am proud of the Proton employees. Hardworkers, eagerness to learn etc. But sometimes, Proton makes me feel ashamed of being a Malaysian (once I stood red faced in front of my boss because I felt so ashamed of how things were dealt with by Proton…I'm not a Proton employee, so my boss asked me a few questions on how Proton was doing things. What they did was so unbelieveable. seriously, that was the worst experience of my life). I'll leave it there for now, because it is a bit off the subject.
I see your point, Fizie, and I also see yours, marmitecrab, and I think they are on two very different points. Fizie, correct me if I'm wrong, your point is how people don't know about the things going on behind the scenes, yet they still bash Proton like hell, talking as if they are the best engineers in the world. Crabbie, (can I call you crabbie?) you're saying that Proton's products are a dissapointment, with low quality interiors, very low value for money, and in the case of the Waja, they didn't respond to feedbacks from people that came to see the car. (I'm not suprised, as the previous CEO was a dictator. Everything has to be approved by him, and he decides based on HIS own judgement, not market research, not expert opinions, HIS own judgement. He costed Proton millions of ringgit. I've got loads of examples…a long story for another day)
I think both of you are right. Fizie, we can't control how other people think. All I've been preaching all this while is not to speak from their arses. Talk based on facts, not speculation and rumors. And always look at the bigger picture. Crabbie, a new management is in control. The top people are now not wannabe racers with a history background, but people with backgrounds in finance. Hopefuly they will treat the company as a true business, and move Proton forward.
Ford takes 150 years to become what they are today. I would say we should give Proton another 120 years to prove their worth.
Hey Fizie,
Looks like you're the only one qualified to post anything here. Happy blogging to yourself. :-)
This is a blog site for us to share our experiences/opinions/etc. The trick is to not take it personally because when you do, then you alienate yourself and you'll find no one will want to contribute anymore to your comments.
I don't remember seeing any clause indicating we have to be in the automotive industry/work in car manufacturing/automotive engineer to be able to contribute opinions because if so, then hardly anyone will visit this site. You seem to sound intelligent enough but then you go on and on and ask questions you know no one can answer you. What are you trying to prove? That you and only you are qualified enough to talk here? Or you want to shut anyone up for disagreeing with you? If so, then it looks like you're fit to be the CEO of Proton.
Fizie,
good question about the technology and cost involve in making cars that only someone from PROTON can answer and of course you know I know not all the question can be answered as testified by zongtwi( u are Proton personnel is it, sorry if you not)
So it left us Proton user to share our experience with our own national car, and the story differ with bloggers background. Some of them well technical, and some of them coffe shop talks-'cakap kedai kopi'. Both of them make up the response for this blog and I believe not all bloggers interested to read some automotive technical jargon, costing or whatsoever that entitled to be published in journal or annual report.
All the bloggers have the rights to say and they just practice the rights. And the readers practice the rights to read whatever they want. You don't like it, jump to the next story, as simple as that. This is an interesting blog and please don't let it be so rigid and boring.
Good Morning Everyone,
I would like to wish Selamat Hari Raya to all Muslim friends here in this blog, Maaf Zahir dan Batin. And Happy Deepavali to all of our Hindu blogger.
To MarmiteCrab, Shai, Zongtwi, I think I've been expressing my own opinion in provocative way which I think it is too much. Sorry if it has been hurting you guys. I'm not a Proton employee nor a Proton Vendor, and I was once a Proton basher also. I don't get any benefit for supporting Proton and deep in my heart I really want to see Proton achieve world class car manufacturer.
Peace everyone……
bashers, be who you are (be tough, hehehe..) …..and dont cry baby, sulking when people bash you back or disagree or have different perspective….hehehheehe…
I agree with Jake. Be tough but be sensible at the same time. I'm thankful for a blog site like this where we are given the freedon to express how we feel about things and can verbally spar with one another without fear or favour (mostly because we don't know each other personnally).
Make the discussions lively and interesting and like shai said, most of us may not want to read highly technical stuff (some is ok but not too much) as it can get too intimidating. But don't let your passion and fervour die down by thinking "I'm gonna hurt some feelings if I say this or that", instead, say it with passion and level-headedness but don't make it too personal by calling each other names. Some other blog sites actually make it a condition that contributors must refrain from using derogatory or demeaning terms and strictly no name-calling or your post will be deleted and you will be banned.
Keep the discussions going and keep it lively and we can all have a good laugh at the end of the day. Let's continue "whacking" away till our hearts content. ;-)
salute you Marmitecrab!
*sigh*, 20 yrs is very long enough, and for 20 yrs ppl keep complaining bout proton's quality, did ya realise it PROTON?
common lar PROTON, wake up lar!
dun bullshit ppl again with partner news and so:P
But Flannel, who to blame? Proton for not making any improvements or consumers who still buy their cars when the quality so poor?
I think the answers are coming soon. Proton looks like they are doing something…., not sure what but I hope it's something good. Stay tuned!
But Marmitecrab, common lar 20 yrs making mistake, and 20 yrs more to improve?? why ppl in proton know the defect and using low quality but till now we can see the pimples come out from their roof, why??? lots of thing we must react and think, for an example Honda Civic, from 1993 to 2003 there were several models changed, but proton? still wira, wira , wira!!! with same models(put few side skirts, change new lamp,seats and so on-then they call it limited/special edition, WTF??) and the worst thing is same defect with the same complain from buyer:P
But Flannel, if what you say is true, then why people still buying the outdated Wira? Simple law of demand and supply. As long as the consumers keep buying the Wira, Proton will keep making them.
The Japanese however, has a policy that ensures they come out with a new model/facelift every 4 years. That's why you will notice that some cars are still selling well when the new model/facelifted ones come out.
Btw, Paul? I just checked your Makan blog and the last time there was anything was almost a year ago.
Nothing new?
The posts recently have become very hot and maybe the guys need a bit more variety in their diets :-0
But Flannel, if what you say is true, then why people still buying the outdated Wira? Simple law of demand and supply. ….
lol, honestly its FORCE DEMAND AND SUPPLY, *sigh*, why ppl still buy, cox cheap cheap mah! import car a bit expensive lar, if ya say we are very cheap, but dun lar give poor quality , please do better to malaysian lor
Flannel,
Cannot agree with you more. I remember the days when so-called "options" were being forced down our throats. "Don't want the alloy rims?, can, wait another six months".
But you know what? The cars Proton makes are actually not cheap. If you can remember when KLIA was about to be opened, there was a request by KLIA Limo to import in Merc C-Class (without import duties) instead of using Perdanas. Reason? It was cheaper! A Merc was cheaper than our own Protons. That's why Malaysia is deferring AFTA like crazy. Once duties are removed, foreign makes become cheaper than Proton.
Sigh! Although we wish it were, the truth can't be further away. Removing duties will kill not only P1 and 2 but also second-hand car market. So what can you and I do? Save up a bit more and buy Korean car. I know I just did and it is years ahead of Proton.
To everyone in here, why keep on condemning Proton? You people only believe that Proton 'seperti Kacang Lupakan Kulit.' Close Proton (aka ANTI PROTON) wants Proton to close. U ni BODOH kaa!? Proton would NEVER close. YOU are the one who's gonna be history, people will know you for being a fool, going against Proton AND Tun Dr. Mahathir. Let Proton be Proton. No fool can become a professor in 3 seconds. Proton needs more time to design their own car, chassis, engine, etc. If they have the money, they can even buy Mitsubishi. Give PROTON a chance to rest their minds, okay?
Dear mr close proton (aka ANTI PROTON), do you know what will happen if Proton closed and sold everything they have?
Answer:
-The workers will be unemployed (penganggur)
-Lotus will also be closed, since the majority of Lotus was owned by Proton
-People will spit (LUDAH) on you, the cause of Proton's closing
close proton, just admit that you hate Malaysia. If you don't like Proton, just say don't like. Slandering people is SUICIDE. People will hunt you down and smash you to pieces if you continue forcing Proton to close.
Mr. Iamgood, you are so good in INSULTING PEOPLE. Get real, you FOOL!
To Tuning_Professional,
I think you a bit sesat, lah. The last time lamgood posted anything was 5 days ago. And it was only 2 sentences. So much has been said since then, some more teruk than what he said. I'm just wondering why you pointed him out of so many contributors?
You made a few points and I was just thinking, "Proton would never close" is a strong statement. As you may have recently heard, the world's largest car maker, GM, is in trouble and they may be looking at possibly downsizing or even closing. If GM can head in that direction, I don't think it's too far-fetched to say Proton would never close. You also said we are going against Tun Mahathir. I think that is another way-off statement you just made. Nobody is going against him, how can we? He is the former PM. You're saying a bunch of bloggers can go against him? Get real!
You also said to give Proton more time. They've had 20 years, not 3 seconds. Would you be willing to give them another 20 years? How old would you be by then? Are you saying we should be made to bear with Proton for another 2 decades before we say they are on par with the rest of the world? At that time, the rest of the world would have progressed 20 years. We will never catch up.
And Sadam. Do you even know what you are talking about?
1. Firstly, I don't care about the workers being unemployed. That is for the company to figure out. Would you care if suddenly all the employees of Giant Hypermarket were to be unemployed? I don't think you'd give two shits about that.
2. You said Lotus would be closed. That's a stupid thing to say. If Proton was to close, they would sell Lotus and try to turn in a profit to pay off their debts. Lotus was around way, way before Proton and will be around for many more years to come.
3. Who exactly will spit on who??? I don't get it. Proton CEO gonna come to my house to purposely spit on me? What nonsense you talking about?
4. Yes, we don't like Proton and many people have said it. But did we slander anyone? Who was slandered? It's a big word and I'm sure you know the meaning of slander, or do you? Slander is when I say something that will damage your reputation. What we're doing here is done in writing. It's called defamation. Get your terms right and also clarify what you're talking about before saying things.
It's people like you who give blog sites a bad name and it's people like you get the legitimate ones, especially those who care enough to contribute, into trouble. If you've got nothing constructive to say, then stay away!
some ppl if they choose to buy Proton, then let them do… why should we stop them? it's their money after all…
if we are smart enough, we know we wont spend our hard earned money on craps and junks… although yes, we have to pay more than what we should to buy foreign brand car, but actually the same goes to Proton car as well…
paying 50k-60k for a car that has problems all around, isn't proton buyers also kena cekik darah like the rest of us? but still everyone is entitled to their choice so let them be lah… if they buy bcoz they wana be patriotic, so let them be, it's them who pays for the expensive services and parts anyway, not to forget time wasted and cuti tahunan lost tobring cars to SC…
eventually, if the trend continues, meaning if proton dont start coming out with reliable and fair-priced car, chances are, many will start ignoring proton till one day, even the government will find it impossible to continue supporting/pumping money into it…
by the way, with or without proton, foreign car price would not come down easily as the government finds this as a very lucrative income, either for the government or for the AP cronies… so for me, i have already set my eyes and target of my first car… (current car is parent's) and u can damn bet that not even a proton made it onto my top 5 choice!!!
you all kutuk and bashing proton pun..
everyday i saw it's more and moree savvy on the road!..
yeah.. more and more.. my jiwan oso.. before owned kancil2. buy a savvy too.. nak pinjam try bawak ronda2 tak bagi lah pulak..
Crazy people with no vision talk about closing down Proton.
Do you know, at least 6 out of 10 new people I met all have jobs related in some way to Proton? Kill the country lor, close down Proton. Cheeeee sin.
20 years not that long in Auto industry terms.
Europe, US, more than century old Auto industries.
Japan, 60 years.
Korea 40 years.
Sure, maybe Proton would have moved faster without the internal inefficiencies & attitude problems. But at least Proton got signs of trying… 3 self-made models so far…
If Proton suddenly close down, maybe we got recession lor. That's y have to keep trying. Until die-die cannot try anymore…
whose these people o make such comments about slander and stuff. crazy nut. can handle it leave the blog. agree with you marmite……….
wow what a nice forum we have here, actually i just point the proton's weakness, not to closing proton, what a joke…
theres only 1 thing to focus defect( that proton knows for 20 yrs and we r facing the same problem yr by yr) and quality itself.
if ya wanna say u r patriotic, then go lar, we never care, thats the problem with our malaysian attitude, when u do somethin good but dont have a quality, then get a comment for others, u all cepat melenting..poorrraahhhh…yenna da!
just think of it, the hardest thing to do in this world is THINK….bye all:)
Flannel,
Don't know if you know but you just semi-quoted Henry Ford, "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it."
Marmitecrab,
Nod, if ya know that u must be reading a lot too, hehe, yeah thats the diff between foreign and our local product/service or whatever:)
btw Marmitecrab, u can contact me at, telnet aardmud.org 4010, type whois flannel:)
GUY… GUYS…
some want proton to climb higher.. and some want it die……………………………………….if protin die
the real losser is we the malaysian….. not the management…. they got big pay.. but us.. we are still driving it…
well….. we need public power to wake the management term up…
proton u got my support
Flannel,
Not sure how your contact address works? Is it www.telnetaardmud.org? Or something else?
Dear Marmitecrab. if I was sesat, I would never komen about what IAMGOOD said. You guys are so sombong that you only think want to kutuk Proton, one small defect, THOUSANDS of condemns. Better stop. The more you kutuk, the more trouble you get. I don't want to kutuk Proton. Let Proton be Proton. If they want to make their cars their OWN design, let them do it. It's up to them.
Unfortunately, the company named MORON (PROTON) was the one that owned Lotus. Do you get that? I don't like to condemn these guys. They have feelings. Even you guys have feelings. And that goes for me and that hot-headed sadam. I know the guys at Proton will feel pain if they saw one of your comments. I don't want them to feel that. Give them a chance. stop giving people pain or the pain will return to you. This a WARNING.
Important- thanks a lot, Marmitecrab for your DESTRUCTIVE comments!
ALL RIGHT! THAT'S ENOUGH YOU GUYS! I know about those two guys (angry SADAM & frustrated Tuning_Professional). Marmitecrab, you action is too KETERLALUAN. Why would you want to halau these guys? If they are cats from the rubbish bin, then you can halau them. If they did something wrong, do it nicely. Don't just halau them like you're some kind of BIG BOSS. For example, SADAM. He is already 'exploding'. No wonder he said that some people will 'ptui' at the people who caused Proton to bankrupt. So if you want them to forget their rude words, tell sadam and Mr. Tuner Guy to apoligise in a nice manner.
And to sadam and Tuning_Professional, please. If you can, try to apologise for your rude words. and that goes the same for you, Marmitecrab. Forget that you ever said to them to stay away. They are humans. They have feelings. If you force them to stay away, they WILL go berserk at you. Trust me. I'm giving an advice for your own good. Remember this saying-
To bury the hatchet- to forget past quarrels and become friends again.
Thank you.
To everybody in here (and to Paul Tan), I am SOOOOOOOOO Sorry for my rude comments. What S15_Silvia said is right. If we do something wrong, apologise. By doing that, we shall never be enemies. Thank you.
To Marmitecrab, Please forgive me stop forcing me to stay away. PLEASE
Pening kepala T_T
I've checked out one of the comments from Tuning_Professional. He's already getting VERY ANGRY. Marmitecrab, please reply his message nicely. If he confessed of what he had done, he will reply nicely. Don't scar his heart. PLEASE.
Oh, Paul Tan. I'm glad to see you. Please tell them not to do KETERLALUAN actions, like what Marmitecrab had done. Doing that might scar that person's heart. PLEASE. Tell them. Thanks
Ohhh. Sorry, S15_Silvia. Bad news for you. I will NEVER FORGIVE MARMITECRAB! EVER!!!
Oh dear. Bad news. Tuning_Professional had already 'meletup'. See now? Marmitecrab, I have no idea what to say but…. he's already angry at you and he doesn't want to forgive you. Do something. Speak with him nicely. Forget your anger at him.
See now? Anger can be constructive, but most anger are destructive. Anger can scar one's heart, like what happened to Tuning_Professional. That is why I came here. I saw Tuning_Professional's comment trying to prove Proton is NOT a MORON. I saw SADAM's comment saying that you guys slander Proton. I also saw Marmitecrab's comment, forcing them to stay away from here.
What happened after that? See this one.
Sadam is a good one- he returned and said sorry to everyone including Paul Tan.
Tuning_Professional? He's already angry and doesn't seem to acknowledge.
Marmitecrab- Just halau them like that? What a shame. You should say nicely to them if you want to correct their rude words. What you've done have scarred Tuning_Professional's heart. If you're happy to see him leave just like that, just wait and see what will happen to you. Better forgive your rude words like 'stay away from here' soon before it's too late.
Marmitecrab, if you want to reply my message, do it nicely. I will IGNORE any RUDE words if you did throw in those words.
I've checked Flannel's comment just now. If you want to tell jokes, just put in words like 'joking only. jangan marah….', then you can say it doesn't have anything related to the closing of Proton!!! Marmitecrab, don't get angry if you read my comment. I know what you're feeling. You should correct what SADAM and Tuning_Proffesional said. Don't simply say 'rude words, get lost!'
EVERYONE has th feeling of being patriotic. I know that. But SADAM and Tuning_Professional are NOT over-patriotic. They were frustraded with your comments. Telling jokes that could risk the loss of Proton for example.
Dear Marmitecrab, forget that you EVER halau them. Forgive your rude words and say sorry to Tuning_Professional. If he doesn't acknowledge you, don't say 'padan muka' at him- he will get ANGRIER and throw in the RUDEST words he can find. This is not a wrestling arena. Anger and quarrel could lead to division (perpecahan). A good advice for everyone.
Paul Tan…. Why pening kepala? anything wron with SADAM's comment?
It's so sad to see Tuning_Professional leave this place. However he WILL return in the future, if he wants to bury the hatchet (the saying Silvia gave). so sad…. :-(
Kenapa buat lawak jenaka seperti 'Proton mesti tutup, jual kilang'? Awak tahu tak yang komen macam tu lah yang akan membuatkan orang MARAH! Tengok si SADAM. Komen dia ganas sangat, sampai boleh kata korang bagi fitnah kat Proton. Walaupun korang tak fitnah Proton pun, korang mesti faham perasaan orang lain. Kalau nak buat lawak, cakap saja nak buat lawak. Lagipun, bukan semua orang suka lawak jenaka seperti yang saya sebutkan tadi. Flannel, rave, tolong beritahu SADAM dan Tuning_Professional dengan sopan yang close proton melawak sahaja! Diorang bukan NUTS (GILA). Cakap elok-elok kat diorang.
Marmitecrab. kalau nak betulkan kata-kata yang diberi SADAM dan Tuning_Professional, buat dengan cara yang sopan, berbudi bahasa dan tidak menjatuhkan maruah orang. Sekarang awak tengok apa dah jadi kat Tuning_Professional. dia dah mula rasa BENCI terhadap awak. Kalau awak nakkan dia berubah semula, lebih baik awak mintak maaf kat dia. Guna cara yang sopan. Saya hanya nak bagi nasihat saja. Samalah macam ANGRY_MAN dan S15_Silvia tadi.
Jelaslah bahawa meminta maaf akan menghapuskan sengketa lama. Ingat tu.
hei. has this blog turned into a warzone?
Forget about POTONG lah
Let talk PotongGM or GMpotong.
All talk on action here…….
I am driving POTONG. Afterall it is the only car I can take a loan from Gomen six years ago. With all its problem it is still functional . jz like my cheapo pentium III ..I jz hoping for a better car .. hopefully sum1… in d Potong notice it … and hopefully make some ammendments… Potong jz cant turn a blind eyes to all the problems Potng driver and owner faced .. U jz cannot … but unfortunately Potong have been turning a blind eye to all d problem … and keeping buying newer technology without ever correcting simple problems faced by the owner.
Crabbie has highlighted many many problems with Potong … tell me how many has been solved .. we jz cannot upgrade with new model.. without correcting the inherent problems of the old car…. I have never remember a recall by Potong for their faulty power windows or CLU …. or any recall at all.
Potong must be very good because there was never a major recall … or they jz let the problem goes away.
Anyway I will still be buying a Potong for the next car.. wat 2 do .. no money no talk… please jz improve … so I can get a New and improve Potong.
One thing I can tell u,U can never feel proud driving a Potong… dun kno Y.. When u see a Toyota .. Honda , BMW or Mercs .. U always feels that maybe one of this day .. I will own ……that…. YYYY?
doc2mee, this blog DID turn into a warzone. All because of me and Tuning_Professional. Okay, I would like to repeat this one more time:
I AM SORRY FOR THOSE RUDE COMMENTS I GAVE.
I was angry at close proton. He said that proton must sell their factory. Thanks to AKU_MARAH, it turned out that it was a joke. I know what you're feeling, rave and FLANNEL. I know i was wrong. I confessed myself and what i want to do now is to change. I came here not to speak rudely. Forget about it. focus on the topic.
FINAL WARNING TO MARMITECRAB: Don't even think of kicking me out of this blog. I admit that i was wrong, okay!?
STOP
OKAY! OKAY! I ADMIT THAT! FINE! THANKS, AKU_MARAH!
WHAT'S THE FINAL VERDICT? ME AND SADAM WAS WRONG! SO STOP KICKING OUR ASSES, MARMITECRAB! YOU MADE ME TEN TIMES ANGRIER THAN BEFORE!
ARRRGH!
Haaa. itupun si Tuning_Professional. Dia mengaku bersalah, tapi kes ni takkan selesai selagi si Marmitecrab tak minta maaf. Tuning_Professional dah mengaku bersalah. tapi kenapa you halau dia!? Hormatlah sikit. Sampai Paul Tan pening kepala…
Aku sokong komen pasal Proton, Marmitecrab, tapi tindakan awak untuk MENGHALAU si Tuning_Professional tu sebenarnya SALAH. Macam saya sebutkan tadi, betulkan kata-kata orang tu dengan cara yang sopan. Kesopanan menunjukkan identiti kita. Si Tuning_professional tu orang baik. Tapi dia ni sensitif. Jadi, berhati-hati masa typing komen korang. Kalau nak buat joke, taip saja ' i'm joking '. Sesetengah orang tu (tak kira pro tuner dgn. SADAM tu) sensitif dengan joke. Buat joke pun kena fikir.
SADAM ni lain sikit. Dia tak maki hamun walaupun dia memang bersalah dalam kes ni. Dia dah bertaubat, jadi tak payahla korang anggap dia ni musuh.
ARRRGH!
WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, MARMITECRAB!? THIS IS NOT YOUR WEBSITE! I HAVE APOLOGISED, NOW WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO!? HALAU ME!? GO AHEAD! I KNOW YOU WILL FEEL HAPPY HAVING ME ABSENT!
AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Tuning_Professional already mengamuk. This is bad! Cool down, my friend! I know that Marmitecrab WILL forgive you.
Marmitecrab, please apologise. Forget what happened yesterday.
ALL RIGHT! THAT'S ENOUGH! Focus on the blogs, not the quarrel. Tuning_Professional already admit he's guilty, but Marmitecrab is so stubborn. Do something to extinguish his fiery anger, okay?
MARMITECRAB, ACCEPT HIS APOLOGY. PLEASE. It's the only way to stop him from running amok.
Ughhhhh. Thank you for cooling me down, ANGRY_MAN. Ughhh…..
i need a rest. Please. I already said sorry. SADAM AND I HAD DONE WHAT SHOULD WE DO. WE HAD APOLOGISED. WHAT WOULD YOU DO NEXT!?
my final word. forget those past quarrels……. let's become friends again. ughhhh…….. Thanks ANGRY_MAN. Thanks AKU_MARAH. Thanks S15_Silvia.
I need a rest. No more halau, Marmitecrab. ughhh….
Okay, guys. stop threatening each other. Don't scar Tuning_Professional's heart anymore. Let us focus on the topics.
Sorry for what had happened, Paul Tan.
Okay. Everything's clear. Proton must close, Joke only. Proton to re-visit its partnership with Mitsubishi, Topic. Tuning_Professional, take a rest. If you want to come back here, tell me. SADAM, forget past quarrels.
MARMITECRAB??? Don't halau them. Give them a chance to cool down before they think again on how to give a good comment.
proton should be find a parthner ship, if not, proton wont can be improve, and get a high technology.
Even though proton is a ECONOMIC car for malaysian, but the quality is too bad. so have a lot of bad comment, espcially like Gen 2.
If Proton really have a partner ship with Japan techonlogy, i think i will be a supporter..
Marmitecrab,
the correct step is goto Start, then click run, type telnet, type op aardmud.org 4010, u must create ya own char there, then type finger flannnel or whois flannel, see ya there. Paul, sorry for non related topics *bows*.
ok back to this topic, lol, what a suprise comments from others ya
Marmitecrab? honestly guys i'm using proton wira 1.8 DOHC (M) Limited Edition 1996, but the engine is still smooth like new, just take care of its engine oil, just using synthium semi synthetic, err i'm looking for 17 inch 2 piece sport rims, contact me if ya found it, thanks, sorry again Paul for non related topic again…
Looks like I missed a lot or is ANGRY_MAN, Tuning_Professional, S15_Silvia, AKU_MARAH and SADAM the same person making comments using different names. I say that because the time between comments are too close together and judging by the way comments and replies are posted, it's normally done during waking hours and with a significant time apart. Those comments were done barely minutes apart and the language and style is too similar. I'm onto you!
Looking for an apology should be sincere. I made those comments as a contributor and also with sincerity. Paul, I think only you can ban or delete posts that are not suitable and as such, I have no control over who should be prevented from contributing.
Finally, if you guys/guy think this is funny, then have a good laugh but stop wasting peoples time, ok?
Flannel,
Sorry but I using Macintosh. Got no Start button. Maybe some other time.
Paul, sorry to hijack this post but I think it's nearing it life cycle already…:-)
Hope you don't mind?
Can someone summarize the blog? I am am confused.
haha
Actually we all luv POTONG
Except it is bleeding us dry .. in the end our blogger started a verbal fight
Now everybody is confused and I am still driving a POTONG..
Get d idea?
aiyoh…. proton already partnership with so many car producer eg, mitsubishi, Citron. now somemore want to partner with VW. it is so difficult with the people who selling spare-parts. batter ask proton to shut down !
Dear Marmitecrab.
The return of the guy who has LOTS of names. I prefer to us this name instead. No more Silvia, AKU_MARAH, TUNERGUY….
Topic now.
Proton to revisit Mitsubishi partnership? Good move perhaps. I have no idea what to comment.
Once again, to Marmite crab.
I ACCEPT YOUR WORDS. THANK YOU.
Dear eMalaysian. Let me summarize this blog.
I AM THE IMPOSTOR BEHIND THIS. I AM VERY SORRY, I PROMISE AND I SWEAR TO GOD THAT I NEVER DO THE SAME THING AGAIN. Ughh… sounds painful.
Marmitecrab, reply nicely. I admit what you said. Thank you.
I don't know both of these companies suck ass. I drive an Eclipse but im getting rid of that POS… So to me Proton could join with Mitsubishi but who cares? You can keep ur 2006 POS Eclipse non turbo RS (really F@!$n slow)!!!!