One of the main peeves on Proton cars have been it’s notorious quality control, as evident from a previous post I made on how to fix the Proton Gen2’s door latch. The problem with the Proton Gen2 door latch was the assembly line personnel did not align the latch properly, thus making it abit hard to open and close.
Word is that this particular QC issue has been fixed with new Proton Gen2 stock, so if it’s true that’s good. Other common jokes about Proton QC are like “buy a Proton, get an aquarium free! Best deal for Koi lovers ever. Where’s the aquarium? Your Proton car’s boot of course. It will be filled with water leaking in.”
It is good that Proton is aware of this. It wants to reverse this negative perception that Malaysians have on it’s cars, and is doing more than PR spinning to get rid of the brand image. It is going down to the core of the problem; evaluating it’s product range and it’s suppliers to weed out the quality control issues.
It hopes it’s recently launched Quality Control campaign would address employees, production practices and components manufactured by it’s suppliers to make improvements to Proton quailty.
Proton MD Syed Zainal acknowledged that many complaints by customers on Proton QC were true. “It is important to accept that this is something that has to be changed. The first step is changing individual attitudes towards work,†said Syed Zainal.
I’ve blogged about this attitude towards work before in my post The Korean Advantage. But Syed, I seriously hope that weeding out bad suppliers are part of your plans, otherwise I do not see this going anywhere. Proton personnel attitude especially those at the assembly line can only go so far.
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Good, so how can I give him some opinion on what to improve?
hmm… give them some time and see if there IS any improvement. only then, we can talk.
Now, can someone get Proton MD to read this post or maybe email him what Jeff said
mistake, Joe, not Jeff :p
NeedGoodCar: Are you saying my blog is not for people of substance? -_-“
Good to hear that Proton take the initiative to improve the quality of proton cars. i hope proton won't be just talking but no action taken. I also hope that proton can put more efforts in R & D and its technology. I'm quite suprise that proton hasn't fully utilised the facilities and expertise in Lotus.
Wake up and grow up proton, don't rely on G. If the people of Malaysia have the choice, they won't buy proton. 20+ years is long enough for proton to grow up and face the challenge ahead.
Hope to see new proton models to roll out soon… i mean all new cars not just modified or facelifted cars.
yaa proton must wedding out their bad suppliers…. most of the qc problem arise from this small small parts that made customers irritating.
Heard this MD is from P2, I hope this new MD can really fix the QC, and pour more money and utilises on Lotus to have better engineering capability…
Walk the talk, Proton, walk the talk.
pls make sure u do it , Proton. i actually very interested in Gen2 , only the quality is stopping me to own one. i will give them 1 more year let's see whether Proton can act or just talk
It's about time, proton….Please bring back customer's confidence to proton's cars
i heard from one of the proton salesman that most of the suppliers of proton parts are chinese companies.
but, as we all know….errr…due to some….non-bumi companies CANNOT deal directly with gahmen….so…they have to go thru another bumi company….
hmmm…..goyang kaki terima mani…
make sure yall do something on the SRM before release… AND DONT TAKE TOO LONG!! no car to drive la…
Ha ha ha…..Rome is not built in one day, they want to change P1 after 20 years? The culture is so deep ingrained in every soul of P1.
No need this quality control campaign lah…listen to me…
Reduce yr car price, e.g. Waja 1.6 auto to RM50,000.
Offer 3 year warrantee + 3 year free maintenance and service to all yr cars.
100% work. See? I can give this advise without being appointed yr CEO, FOC.
People in Bolehland sure buy one…but not me lah.
Enaf problems with yr car scared alreidi.
About "ubah gaya hidup" – I am 100% agreed with its advocate, what he meant was u ubah gaya hidup to lagi SUSAH so that certain people could ubah gaya hidup to lagi SENANG…pafam semua?
Really fed-up with NAP, just asking decent people to take a short sleep, "NAP".
Joe, any comments….till now I have been agreed with 100% what you said.
Please allow VW to manufacture their cars here. I want Passat with so many incredible features. RM120,000 for Passat 2.0 FSI with cruise control ….
as we all agree.. it is attitude that needs to be changed. I think we should give them time to prove and improve. This MD is new in proton. i believe he had a hard time in P1 especially handiling some lazy and reckless staffs. Let the SRM be our judging point. else.. but a second hand imported car better or get a Modenas. cheers..!!
No offense to our Malay frens. But this is a true story. One of my Malay fren said," Honda Melaka is the best automotive factory in Malaysia (May be one of the best of the world). Because their quality is so good, they are supply world wide Honda cat factories, the Constant Velocity Joint (CVJ) Components. A key component is the car, which requires high precision quality. The workers in Honda are Malayu juga. In Proton pun semua Melayu. But, the quality of Honda is top of the world and Proton’s quality is at the bottom of Malaysia. Same Malay workers, but different standard!!!! The root cause is the management style and attitude. If the kepala ikan dah busuk, of course the badan pun busuk lah!!!! Let's hope the new ikan, boleh tukar the 20 years of so-called national pride excellent "Tak apa" attitude.
without P1,2
m'sia will generate bigger auto economy value and jobs
for all rakyat…
as an indisputalbe auto hub in asean…
what a sxxxxck auto Plan under previous heads.
anyway,
from economist 's point of view,
it is still not too late
to close them down,
or just sell it to big AUto players…
for national rakyat interest sake!
"The problem with the Proton Gen2 door latch was the assembly line personnel did not align the latch properly, thus making it abit hard to open and close"
This is the main problem. Genarally, it applies to Malaysian. Not all but most of us. It's part of the culture here. The "tidak apa" attitude. Can u just imagine what's going on in that so-called assembly line personnel's mind at that moment? "Oh, guess it's a lil out of place… hmmm, hey… the door still can open maaah… ok… what the hell". I'm sorry for the would-be owner of that particular car but guess u are one of the thousands of unsatisfied owners of Proton cars.
I must agree it's good that Proton do take such measures to make their name better but to how successful this will be… I wouldn't place much hope. This is what happen when u have a bunch of blood sucking and useless biatchesss up there. The first thing in their mind is how much profit they can get by doing this. Well, not profit for the company but to their own pocket! I would say, unless they change their own attitude, i don't see how Proton can change the public mind set to their bad QC problem. Let us all hope that they do not make it any more worst…
Joe Ooi! That is absolutely so mother-freaking CORRECT! damn… it just makes my blood boil every time i read such things. I really wonder where's all our taxes are going… Like I said, change the management and Proton will be better. At least kick out the old scum so the new ones can try. Ya never know if new ones can perform better unless they are given the chance.
main local suppliers are the main culprits of poor proton quality,anyting from the plastics used for the dashboard ,door panel all the way to leaking brake fluid container….damn thse bast**ds , bt its a good step,atleas Syed looks to mean business not like TM , he never liked to admit the poor quality…i hope it works this time…
Joe, r u sure u really belong here? from the way u write and the arguments u presented shows that u r a person of something, someone who earns high salary n drives a BMW, Mercedes or Porsche or the likes… i belong to those living in the Bolehland hoping some miracle to happen…e.g. to be able to buy Passat 2.0 FSI selling for RM130,000….thanks anyway…your comments really impressive…
if i work in P1, i rather re-sign than seeing all this…..
how to improve if u all keep on complaint?
It it good move to set "Quality First". Eventhough it is rather too late (because
many people have already lost their trust) Proton must ensure each unit of
car is free from defect. The After Sales Service is very improtant, meaning Proton must make sure to replace any defect part (related to design, material) FOC regardless the car already out of warranty. This is to bring
back proton's image toward better quality. They have to analyze each customer complaint and keep tracking the defect records. If it is related to
design failure, they have to pull back all units that already sold, and replace
those defect items FOC. This after sales service must be aggressive to provide
good services to customers – because customer is very improtant. It is easy to loose customers than getting one !
Wait a minutes… didn't I heard this before? Long long time ago.. Quality.. Guys if QC is really implemented you have to see Proton Saga wiped out, its reallly a tin can. Proton still making can tin cars. I pretty much agree with guys here.. Proton need more then Quality to keep up.. REDUCE price dude!!
ONE WORDS,
JUST CLOSE SHOP,
FOR TRULY RAKYAT INTEREST AND BETTER CAR LIFE QUALITY,
instead of cronies interest! pak L!
Kendo :
Jus close Shop is Three Words!!
No…the mere presence of people like Joe and many others here prove that this IS the place to be for car lovers.
Paul, if this place is not for people of substance, why is the first place I register myself to this blog?
What I try to say was : people here tends to be those who want car with reasonable price, presumably people who can't afford BMW, Mercedes, Audi and the like…people who really care about the car industry, most likely the middle to lower income group, the majority group, if I am driving a RM500,000 car, U think I bother?
NeedGoodCar: I get your point. That wasn't a hostile question, I was just asking what you meant :)
phewwww……i am glad it's all clear now…bcos I have to respect the HOST here….it's YOU who make all this possible…
I personnally fed-up with P1, but I don think the current administrator in Cartaxland or Bolehland has the gut to shut P1 down or sell it to other player who knows the game better. Guess we have to embrace "The Power of Dream", i.e. dream on, for cars like vios and city selling for RM60,000.
What a high price to pay for NATIONAL PRIDE!!! Afterall, what pride do we have here? Ask P1 to compete with other players? P1 can't even compete on its own soil!!! They need short sleep "NAP".
actually here is my previous posted in the lowyat forums:
Speaking of MDs, here some of my opinions.
From here we can see a huge different between Syed Zainal (SZ) with the previous CEO, Tengku Mahareel â„¢. What i can summarize SZ is at least his humble, honest, has directions and his is frm the automotive industry. While what i admire from TM is his charismatic and his has a vision for proton, but his is a snob, talks big but end up nothing and never respect/trust their customers.
Before TM came to Proton, he was a rally driver and won some races here, so we can assume his is frm a motorsports background. After helming as a CEO in Nestle and Shell, he joined Proton and soon after the demise of DRB HICOM CEO, who was holding proton that time, he rises and became the CEO, under the mentor-ship from TDM himself.
He has a vision, that he wants proton to suceed as a car manufacturer rather than a car assemble like before. That why he tries to reduce depandancy with mitsubishi while forming in house development for engines, design and etc. With lotus expertise, he wants proton to be sporty and fun to drive. Also, when he juz became the CEO,he promised to the journalist that proton's problems with QC will be a thing in the past
Sounds promising, but……………….
Under his helm, the proton waja was released. But he made the 1st major mistake by saying the waja is the BMW of asia, and believes even if waja is priced at 80K, ppl will still buy it and proton will sell like hotcakes shakehead.gif
His next mistake is he did not improve the QC instead he worsen it. Proton finally develop their own models by themselves but it taken too much time to develop and its best seller models like the wira and saga is aging and needs replacement.
Another major mistake , which is a sign of his arogance, is that he mentioned that Malaysia is the detriot of Asia , but Thailand. Well today Thailand is a major manufacuring hub for Toyota, nissan and many more manufacturers and Thailand is the official Detriot of the East. We can have that provided Proton does not exist!
Perhaps his big bad mouth paid the price when last year he complained the gov is not doing enough to save proton from feirce competition. Soon Proton board members decides its enough and the rest is history.
Before SZ takes over, he already trained with Japanese style work ethics with Daihatsu, which i believe must be a follower of the famous Toyota Mgmt System. When he took over proton, he promised that proton will continue to develop more afforable cars, instead of sporty good handling cars frm the TM era. At least this shows he has a realistic direction for Proton.
Best of all, like perodua where they listen to their customers unlike proton, now they realised the importance of customer and ppl's feedback, one such frm online forums like autoworld and here. They have identified their major problems (i know muz be tons of them),and it will be a uphill task to solve all their problems, but i have confidence that SZ will suceeding in guiding Proton into the correct direction.
Still, u never know, 1-2 yrs later either he will be the next Carlos Ghosn or
end up like TM himself.
Good Luck , Syed Zainal and Team Proton!
It is commendable for Syed Zainal to admit there is a serious problem with P1 Quality , after 20 yrs+ of existence. Well better late than never.
But it is kind of worrysome that this Quality improvement is turn into a campaign. My understanding of campaign is that it is something done on a fixed & short period of time. For P1 to improve the Q problem , it definitely need more than a campaign. It need to change the work culture , staff awareness , overall review of the present operation procedure / standard especially the assembly line and finally not to mention , the incoming Q assurance procedure from those idiotic parts vendor who is definitely the biggest culprit.
All these take serious planning, targets and follow up. It needs periodic review to measure the effectiveness of actions taken. All these take time and not a one off campaign to ensure the Q up is a success.
HOW TO CHANGE THE WORK CULTURE , MIND SET & MOTIVATION OF THE P1 STAFFS. THAT MR. SYED CEO ,HAS TO SHOW HIS CAPABILITIES. JUST HOPE IT WON'T TAKE TOO LONG !!!
Cheers .
doubt anything will change. u can change ppl in a few months. it takes longer to change ppl's mindset, in dis case the 'tidak apa' attitude. unless they sack all d workers n employ foreigners. hehe…
as for syed, he has a tough job to do, considering he's not d main guy running d show. for R&D, it's actually datuk kisai rahmat, the director of engineering calling d shots. for manufacturing, it's datuk kamarulzaman darus. datuk tony chan, head of quality mgmt. these 2 guys have been running d show since p1 was born. 1 was suppose 2 retired, but got extended his services.
now, if u look at their track record 4 d past 25 yrs or so, did they did well in their job? i dun think so…. looking at how p1 is performing and wif so many complaints since den until now.
den i would ask, y on earth is these 2 guys still at d helm??? hey, c'mon, d board can sack TM (after 7 yrs), y dun change these 2 fellas too? isit becoz TM does not follow d board's direction, so they sack him?? and these 2 guys do? so r these 2 guys a 'yes man' 2 d board?
now, im jus curious, have r d ppl elected to the board of directors???? did d board undergo any '"real" changes in d past 25 yrs? who's calling s shots? khazanah??? or some1 else? how do they perform in dis 25 yrs??? where's d transparency??? where's d KPI for these guys????
how come only 1 got sack (TM), while another 1 got 'hybernated' (Dr. M)???
so who's really d main power in p1??? do d remainning guys really understand anything bout automotive engineering and automotive industry????
i just wonder….
FOR 20 YEARS OF P1 PROJECT,
PROTON CONTRIBUTES 2BILLION TAX,
BUT RAKYAT
PAYING 200 BILLION EXTRA – HIGH PRICE MONEY FOR CARS!
AVERAGING 20K PER CAR WE PAID COMPARE WITH GLOBAL FAIR PRICE"
THAT'S A HUGE SIN" COMMITTED
BY THOSE POLICY MAKERS.
IMO, proton's biggest problem isn't the worker's attitude……..it's bcoz its a GLC company……almost near to a total control…….politics…..has coz the company to be charity-orientated company rather than profit-based…..that's is the main problem.
guys! u forgotten that Proton brought Lotus and the expensive bike…Worst part they sale the bike stock in ebay, your money there. I don't understand where did G get involve in. The invest too much and wonder whos money was that.. come on guys, we spend too much buying PROTON!!
proton in all aspect , u know i know, never have any good expect from it ever till now!, if have this old scum in that place still sit like cat shit scum in sand below all thing will up side down in future. see like Singapore have nothing but still can survive better then us base on geography, there have nothing but that a type of people make a thing different after all that wee know a true.
Hi, I only recently starting to know about your blog, partially because doing a project on Proton management for my degree. I find that your site is very both very informative and entertaining. I've got a few question about Proton that I wish to ask (hope somebody willing to give comment).
1. Do you think Proton cars quality can be changed through quality campaign? How do they measure quality vendor, or do they allow any tom, dick and harry to tender (or as long as it's bumi's)?
2. Government allocated so much money for Proton in terms of its R&D (so said in it's annual report), where do all the money go? And its impossible not to have any result if effort is being made!
3. Why do 20 years of tied-up with MMC, don't Proton employees learn any knowledge applicable in terms of creating a totally new engine, if they practice a learning organisation (so said in it's annual report) in their working culture?
4. What makes the collaboration with MMC this time be any different?
That's is all the question that I hope somebody can shed some light.Thanks.
just
CLOSE
SHOP!
for Rakyat interest, and pockets"
what a shamed project"
Sorry guys, new here.
When I saw this, it kinda……..stupid
I was thinking after all this years what is PROTON trying to do here ? Trying to convince buyers it is up to standard now. WHY don't they do it so many years ago ? Look at all the review in the world, the car is a JOKE.
It been protected by our goverment for many years and yet it can't even comes out with a car we all can be proud of.
My foreign friends call this " JUNK YARD SCRAP " aiyah sometimes I am ashamed of this. " OUR NATIONAL CAR "
Worst of all, the standard air bag doesn't even comes as standard. This is a crucial safety standard for most cars in every country. I was wondering how many life could be saved from just this one standard feature ?
They shud have get it done 10 years ago.
My foreign called it a " JUNK YARD SCRAP "
The standard issue of air bag not even there. Besides all those $$$, I was wondering how many life could be saved……
kendo.. close shop??.. i think thats impossible.. especially in Cartaxland.. but if P1 sold.. thats is possible… hehe…
But guys.. lets see who is goin to be their partner 1st.. then we can bash P1 some more…
ps: motorhead think P1 no longer produce milo tin.. their body plate quite solid now, compare to P2 products….
NeedGoodCar said,
April 8, 2006 @ 5:18 pm
NeedGoodCar said – "Joe, r u sure u really belong here? from the way u write and the arguments u presented shows that u r a person of something, someone who earns high salary n drives a BMW, Mercedes or Porsche or the likes… i belong to those living in the Bolehland hoping some miracle to happen…e.g. to be able to buy Passat 2.0 FSI selling for RM130,000….thanks anyway…your comments really impressive…"
Joe Ooi – YES, I am not 100% but 200% sure belong here. You are entitled to your opinion and comment on my writing. But just straight to the point, I am not a person of something earning big income driving luxury car, but just like you belong to those earn monthly salary enough to make decent and simple living and driving Waja only in this Bolehland.
If our market embrace open policy, you may be able to buy Merc C-Class starting from around RM 120K! We don't need to waite for miracle to happen, ….. as "world class crocs. hunters" (WTO, AFTA, others FT, by all means, not necessary I agreed and totally support them) will eliminate crocs in MITI, NAP and P1 and teach them what is free and fair market! Afterward (likely after 2010) you, me and any rakyat in this Bolehland will no longer have to suffer under CarTaxLand and have the free choice on wide range of cars the world market can offer at lowest price – value for money.
crystal said,
April 9, 2006 @ 11:03 pm
This is my personal opinion only.
Hi, I only recently starting to know about your blog, partially because doing a project on Proton management for my degree. I find that your site is very both very informative and entertaining. I’ve got a few question about Proton that I wish to ask (hope somebody willing to give comment).
Joe Ooi – You do Proton management for your degree. What aspects you zoom in, e.g. Classical/scientific management, Human Relationship management, System Approach or Contingency Approach. If your scope constitute one or more of this, then it is normal, but to study management on Proton, then you may get new finding as in my opinion none of the above-mentioned is/are applicable in Proton case. This is because the modus operandi on "Proton's Management Style" are as follows: –
a. Maintaining current “xenophobia†ownership structure, armed with political-economic-patriotism connection of parochial automotive policy and predatory tax-phobia regime preying on captive but defenseless consumers.
b. Proton “great romantic demeanor†with crass automotive policy and tax-phobia structure, which become its “money-making business†tool, expected government to act as “sugar daddy†by maintaining it. As a result, car buyers are “force†to act like “sugar mummy†to buy it “over price†but inferior products to sustain its hullabaloo existence.
c. Proton’s fears of market forces and ignores equally its own “life-threatening illnesses†need holistic diagnosis to prepare for long-term growth or become world-class player!
1. Do you think Proton cars quality can be changed through quality campaign? How do they measure quality vendor, or do they allow any tom, dick and harry to tender (or as long as it’s bumi’s)?
Joe Ooi – No,
a. Don’t have strong branding and suffering image on perceived inferior products. This creating opportunity for criticism and obvious subject for lampooning in the market.
2. Government allocated so much money for Proton in terms of its R&D (so said in it’s annual report), where do all the money go? And its impossible not to have any result if effort is being made!
Joe Ooi – Proton lack of R & D and innovation resulted in there are no truthfully new cars develop to meet latest trend and generate consumers interest. Its products lineup limited to assemble products by “modificationsâ€, “crossbreedingâ€, “restylingâ€, “re-badgeâ€, etc. Presently adopt “replacement†instead of improvement for TRM, SRM and PRM!
3. Why do 20 years of tied-up with MMC, don’t Proton employees learn any knowledge applicable in terms of creating a totally new engine, if they practice a learning organisation (so said in it’s annual report) in their working culture?
Joe Ooi – Appart from lack of R & D and innovation as mentioned above, economically, Proton does not viable since its inception, but is a liability to the nation! After 2 decades, apart from setup cost, Proton inflicted huge economic cost in term of “RM Billions†annually and diluted the consumers’ Purchasing Power Parity (PPP).
4. What makes the collaboration with MMC this time be any different?
That’s is all the question that I hope somebody can shed some light.Thanks.
Joe Ooi – There will be no different as Proton as "Local Joker", from foreign players perspective is much more problematic expected foreign player to follow their "terms and conditions", that why there are many negotiation for tie-up or "strategic alliance", but all failed misely or Proton loss huge sum of money (MV Agusta). Furthermore, most if not all the automotive related companies involved also in one way or another have their own problems or not the best in the world, Mit, VW, Lotus, MV Agusta, Delphy, Chery, Geely, etc. Do the worldclass players like Merc, BMW, Toyota or Honda interested on Proton? I don't think so.
listen and listen to customers.. that what proton should do… and i think they starting to realize that…. it might take a while to gain customer confidence but there is always a room for improvement….
Wahlaueh…
May be P1 should introduce the improvement kits for current owners to upgrade. the kits may be like sound proof stuffs & etc, important things was selling with half price & need each customer only entitle 1 purchase for his registered proton car. e.g. RM2k kits include all door seals, rear disc brake, air bags & etc… with these may be customers can gain back confident in faster way.
nowdays i see many proton dealers promoting 2005 models and 2006 models… can anyone tell me the difference? thanks :)
2005 models meaning manufactured unsold p1 cars in 2005. higher depreciation for 2nd hand value as compare to manufactured yr 2006. yr 2006 models may have some minor accesories different or exactly same.
not worth to buy yr 2005 b'cos when you sell your cars some 2ndhand cars dealers are base on manufactured year to judge the car value. if new car price for yr 2005 & 2006 different only RM1-2k, it is really not worth to buy. As per current market, per year depreciation for p1 cars sure more than 2k.
thanks kody… but quality wise?
go_go,
previously blog reader 'motorhead' said he had checked out new GEN2 yr 2006 at show room, it looks like already go through some improvement on certain consumer complaints like sound proof, door problems… but how well P1 cater for consumer complaints are still remain unknown. The current quality status for P1 is a question mark (still maintain worst or better???), but soon may be p1 can improve under new MD direction. Better wait n see rather then complaints if you buy new P1 car got a lot problems!! Sure regret…
Kody you are right, better hold back any buying decision, new Waja with Campro engine, we don't have any idea whether ut is better than previous engine. The improvement on this is leather seat and new aircond vent which I see can blow more evenly! I heard salesman from Perodua said the new MD bring in new vendors from Perodua to replace existing P1 lousy vendors, especially power window and the colour scheme for car. How far the quality improvement to be seen is still questionable given P1 inventory all are outmoded (at least old model from other manufacturer), unlike MyVi which I know is new model from Daihatsu.
Still don't buy comment.
Sorry for asking a lot of question….
Based on several people that i asked that owned 2006 P1 models, they agreed that several improvement has been administered. Thus, satisfying some customer, although the reality is very little…
But the thing that i always keen on consumer and business, is the relationship that the business itself establish and maintain to retain its existing customer. I hope P1 didnt just improve their quality of their products (Cars) but also improve on their customer service, especially after-sales activity. I think this point also helps to gain back trust from the customers….
go_go – P1 sales after service, what I experience is they carried out "standard" service procedure and cost easily more than RM 100.00. They don't see whether the component still can repair or still useable, what they do is change everything and smack you with big bill. After warranty period, I go to service center or foreman I known very well and they give me truely value for money service! Agreed with you that they need improvement, but I don't see they take it seriously!
better sit tight.. dont order any car, especially potons ..wait till the end of this month.. it is very important for poton future, poton owners, poton goin to be owners & poton bashers…
maintain neutral now… bocz i still hope it will be VW…. anything is possible..
Yes correct Motorhead, if VW come in, P1 will become contract assembler for VW at its under capacity Tanjong Malim plant. Later we have more choice and better pricing offer as any buyout of Proton stake, they in one way or another have impact on the models and pricing of the cars.
If not VW, Mit also can do the job, but in the event P1 said I want to maintain national car" status and bla, bla, bla, bla,……. then we ahve to take burden on P1/NAP.
still have some faith, but donno whether proton will succeed or not. however, its a good move, mr Syed. hyundai was not much better than proton when it was 20 in age. but they improved magnificently since then. maybe proton could do the same.
Joe, u r right, there are too many of unqualified P1 service center. Simply change & charge for the bill. Furthermore the OEM parts, simply may be more expensive than the import/CKD cars. People said P1 cars are cheap to maintain because of the imitation parts that have almost equal quality with P1 OEM parts. In a service center of many technicians, may be only 1 is really skillful. Others are just ….so so….
Wait n wait n wait n see or keep enough for VIOS or CITY… do not quickly rush for P1. i am a victim of P1 also. I have to keep my mind peace to tolarate the 'chit chit' sound from my car's (Wira Aeroback special edition) back area. i have to dismantle the whole back accesories/covers to find the SOURCES. The damn back wiper motor area also contribute to the 'chit chit' sound that i just discovered few days back… Need to take out part by part then verify….. troublesome & frustrated!!!! FXXK…. So. go for P1 better think n rethink again.
One more thing to share is the ISWARA LMST, belts outside engine are giving 'chit chit' sound because of the belt problem, check with few owners also have same problems every morning when start the engine… the belts were singing….(complaint many times at service center they just adjust, apply grease only temp help), only solve by change new belts by seeking outside foreman help. Only RM50 for 3 belts change including installation. If go to P1… no free change on problem parts, so part + service charge sure >RM100.
Ala.. Joe.. if we want to change the situation now, we might not be able to live long enuf to see the change.. at least we can still hope for the better.. lets say if it VW.. at least we have the chance to buy VW at proton price (national price).. if poton sold completely to VW.. VW will get total control, especially price… VW saw this potential (some more with NAP protection), i think that is why the 1st round deal failed.. but i still hope theres 2nd deal & will work this time…. but mitsu oso acceptable…
ToiletBowl, Hyundai success was a legendary success in Korea. It is the result of really a hardwork & determinations to build the brand. Hyundai also is the largest & fastest cargo ship builder in the world. Discovery channel had report & show the Hyundai success story to the world. This is a really Korean's national pride. Not like P1, a bit shame to tell it as a national pride lah…
to recap, Hyundai not only build cars, it build many things. If i am not mistaken, the CEO was from the roads building company, & he was selected by government to establish an auto industry in korea.
Kody & Motorhead – My first car, Iswara Sedan (7 years) & Waja (3 years) is enough for me to experience P1. My conclusion is I will never get 3rd P1 car in future givent their bad quality.
Ooi..Yeah.. i ustd how it feels.. i ve a few fren drive wajas… so i know… but u can try P2 products later, ok oso.. no major poblems.. but very fragile & no big cars .. i think u better trade in yr waja fast & buy CITY… bcoz yr waja value will drop fast…
I ve my eyes on Honda city… wait a bit more…
Motorhead – actually I fall in love with Toyota Innovia family car but a little bit pricey! Just finish my installment, want to come back again to change new car, aiya, a bit headache. Likely to buy 2nd hand Innova 3 or 4 years down the road, see any hope and changes to NAP/P1. Waja depreciate, what to do! Buy at high price RM 64K and another 3 or 4 years, may be RM 20K plus minus! Now around RM 38K, already losing like nobody biz……….
Ooo.. i c… i like it 2.. but according to my fren (owner), that car suck petrol la & no price change (MPV)… but if u can make petrol claim, ok la… or u wait a bit while, my fren said P2 will launch another car.. a bit bigger than myvi.. called YRV.. so you can ve 2nd car…. dont ve to sell yr waja…
Joe, who knows, may be 3yrs later… no more P1 or oredi bought by foreign company. How good if the losses in the MV was given to concentrade to solve all customers complaints about the sub-standard P1 cars.
Joe, ur WAJA oso hav common WAJA problems?? Think of INNOVA… Do you really need it for whole family members?? Cause this is a heavy car, think of space…. tol payment…. petrol comsumption… If u r always drive alone n less family members, better go for other toyota, honda models but definately not P1….
i heard today interest for P1 cars are raised to 4%…. sucks….. it just look like no cut price if you pay low downpayment. It is just a conventional G way to help P1, but suck back the offer in other form….
hello,
Proton incoming partner-in-crime, worst case scenario is the mainlander. God forbid that! But look like it is the most probable scenario.
Deep inside, i hope its not the chinese or even the japanese (mistsui). Let it be VW. Amen.
My distaste for Proton run in my blood. Original goal is to buy non-national car. So, I saved $$, RM for 4 long years just for that (that just for the big lump sum down payment so monthly instalment is managable ). During those time, I sacrifice a few things e.g. image among co-worker (boss and subordinate) coz drive motor skuter only! Its not wrong, but can sense your 'pembawaan' amongst your peer drop coz you 'no-class' ( i don't mean motorcyclist no-class, ok? But faham-faham la human basic mentality).
Everybody else drive car, but you busy wif the helmet, baju hujan and stuff.
After 4 years period end, managed to meet the objective (of buying non-national car). That how I materialise my distaste, frustration etc towards Proton. Praise God for allowing me to reach this little objective.
However, as my distate for Proton continue, I been monitoring Savvy since they release the car. The marketing ploy look like back fire. Creative idea but most probably only youth (most no source of income) could accept it. Silap la Proton. Better rebrand its image wif a second round marketing campaign. I strongly believe, it is not too late for this car. Lets not touch on the issue of the timing when they release it. Stupido.
They also play-play with TUV. Now no more huhah abt TUV. Why ahh? Sandirawa kah ini?
Thanks to P2 inability to coup with demand on Myvi & no major wide-spread complaints (genuine or not) about Savvy, I strongly believe the sale for this car is picking up rather handsomely. It might not be aggresive, but its there. Ppl also slowly begin to view Savvy positively now. Zero kit & other accessories does help but sell it a bit cheaper la.. Make it the craze in the town but don't ever compromise on quality and styling (no ah beng – ah beng style, please). Take cue from latest European small hatchback. I don't mind.
Sure the car overall still lower than what was expected. Personally, the interior is not good enough. But so far the signs are encouraging (for a product produced by Proton).
BTW, my little sister just bought one. I actually approve it! Good luck to her (and me too). Like what been mention here b4, we are captive in the car market.
Its the most economical/affordable/stylish car her money could buy. Kancil and kelisa old lah, already boring wif their look. What a sad-looking pool of choices. Did i say choices?? Paul, sorry for that. Didn't mean to mislead the readers..
Regarding the Quality Control Campaign (the topic), It Feel, Sound, Taste 100% like magic budak-budak sekolah la SZ.. (Remember Allahyarham S.A. Bakar? Has you ever attend his magic show at your primary school?) The amazement last for a while but not that long, unless your are one boring boy or a magic fan. He he..
Gut feeling say 6-12 months from now, rakyat, market, investor, everybody for that matter will bash it or just silently view this campaign as another extension of Proton long running NATO (No Action Talk Only) soap drama forced upon CarTaxland inhibitants throat. If they care to remember la..
I booked my waja in July 2000 and only took delivery in July 2001, waited one year to get the car, company loan, company's panel of insurance, could that be the reasons for delay? don't know.
I am still using the car to date, mind you, the current radiator fixed in my car now is the 4th unit.
1st time bocor, tukar baru, 2nd time bocor tukar baru, 3rd time bocor tukar baru, 4th time boror, everytime traffic jam happened, stopped in the middle of the road, call tarik kereta, everybody looking at you, malu betul, OK, sudah mahu satu bulan lagi cukup waranti, tidak boleh ambil chance lagi, left the car in the servis centre for about 2(or 3 days) for them to check thoroughly, cannot recall how long, after that was told there was a defect in the pancut air problem, something that the pressure of the water flowing into the radiator not "arhm", so whenever there's need to pancut the water into the radiator, it's far too strong, the radiator cannot tahan, bocor. They managed to fix the problem, ever since no radiator problem, touch wood.
Mounting changed 2 times, car rattles like bus, even Metrobus is more quiet.
Driver side car power window set No. 3, faked one, according to the mekanik, it has two extra iron plate, can hold the wire longer, can tahan longer. Now want to wind down, press half way, release, cannot sekali gus turun semua, then continue to make it turun, when close, also naik sekali, lagi tekan sekali, baru kasi naik semua. Cannot terus up and terus down.
Front passenger side power window F alreidi more than 1 year, ask the mekanik to use 2 dawai kasi gantung, disabled alreidi.
Belakang power window left hand side, better don't press, you know what, here's tip, whenever you close the door, if the door closes with a solid "THUP" sound, that's means the window panel is OK, if it alreidi gone case, when you close the door, that seems to be angin keluar sound, not the solid "THUP". That's what happen to this power window, if I try to press, it won't come up again, I know.
The light bulp always burned, the rear mirror, sudah cannot fixed into the lubang properly, if you pusing kuat sikit, the whole read mirror tercabut.
The volume control and the station control on the steering wheel, I use tissue paper to stuck that control panel so that they wont drop off.
Wanted to sell the lemon last year, so waited bcos was told that VW is definetely coming, with the new Passat 2.0 FSI, the rest of the story you know what lah.
Share with you a secret, if you can afford, get a CBU, the recommended one being Mazda 6, bcos that's most decent in terms of price and standard, CKD? Local assembling technique not up to the standards, in Germany, when they can't close the car door properly, the engineers will go back to the drawing board to see why it cannot close properly, may be design not right, here? they use the hammer to close it, roll out, u pakai lah. If you not lucky, whether national cars or CKD, same one. Is it TRUE? Plz tell me.
Wah, really like the Toyota Mark X.
some times i wonder, does any one in P1 actualy read what we all post here?
proton not even know what there r doing is like a monkey business, not till now when customer complain then there do something n come whit there policy TeX there TeX here , come whit all AP issue to protect this n that after all we all r malaysian n been TeX there n here, what that for if not for our Malaysia!. is these fair game to those who work hard !.
like thes wa,.. all people from proton who malaysian can do n call notional pride that can do somthing to our malaysia!, if that the way u o me also can wa, ha…ha…!.
joe and the rest
1st and foremost Zainal originally from Proton. He jump to get better pay at Perodua then jump back. But he is an honest person, the only problem is the delivery mechanism (middle management).
now if u want to compare our car prices to the rest of the world, go on; but our tax for cars is aout 60% of factory value, where as import tax for UK at 5% and Australia at 10%. The infor available on the net. UK has sold all his auto mfr, where as Ausralia Holden is the biggest recipient of govt grant for the past 15 yrs. One yr of those grant is enough to run Proton for 3 yrs.
As for the looks ah Beng or not, it depends on personal perspective. Most probably TM coming from Rally background like these Ah Beng thinghy but I don't think Zainal a stout family and religious man will have the same idea. But then taking out the Ah Beng means that Proton will only try to please the mak cik and uncle (like many here).
Its a lose-lose situation for Proton unless they can come up with enough model to cater for both market segment.
As for customer service, its where they need to improve 1st and foremost. But its really difficult as the way it is managed now there isn't much that Proton can do. but the customers need to be selective on which CS they want to send their cars to.
I don't care about the car tax, in fact I like to have every car sold in M'sia to tie its tax structure to how many ppl it employs. The more it employ less tax should be paid.
biggie said,
April 12, 2006 @ 12:13 pm
This is my personal opinion only: –
biggie – joe and the rest
1st and foremost Zainal originally from Proton. He jump to get better pay at Perodua then jump back. But he is an honest person, the only problem is the delivery mechanism (middle management).
Joe Ooi – I think Proton problems are not limited to middle management! Yes, the new MD SZ as I see it will never failed to lead P1 and set a correct direction. But look at range of P1 products in the market, fairly to say P1 will fail MD SZ misery! For example, Proton Iswara models is already more than 2 decades, if you send this model to Toyota City, BMW or Merc factories, they also cannot help on quality improvement, from their point of view, this outmoded car never passed NCAP test or any quality standard set by them and it is "scrap metal". In other word, if MD SZ wants to improve quality, and if we use Proton market at UK as indication, the only models on sale are Jumbuck, Impian (Waja), Gen-2 and Savvy. Then the 1st thing for SZ to do is to cease productions for all outmoded and aging models like Iswara, Wira, Perdana, Satria, and Juara etc. Later, remove all as what wc5be said Datuk Kamarulzaman Darus and Tony Chan as Head of Quality Management. Do MD SZ have the will and able to make such changes, majority of vehicles sales by Proton is still "venerable" Wira and Iswara models, how do it affect P1 bottomline? Without such changes, then fairly to say currently campaign is another myth than reality!
biggie – now if u want to compare our car prices to the rest of the world, go on; but our tax for cars is about 60% of factory value, where as import tax for UK at 5% and Australia at 10%. The infor available on the net. UK has sold all his auto mfr, where as Ausralia Holden is the biggest recipient of govt grant for the past 15 yrs. One yr of those grant is enough to run Proton for 3 yrs.
Joe Ooi – We make objective and reasonable comparison as our G also signatory to FTAs like WTO, AFTA, etc. on total aggregate of our CarTaxLand, it is up to approx. 280% under NAP – "Nonsense Alligators Protection". UK not sold but closed all mass production car manufacturers. The last victim is MG Rover; they make wise economic decision, as it is no longer economically viable! Holden car mostly rebadge from Ford, they receive grant from Australia G but their tax still low. It may the 1 year grant enough to run P1 for 3 years, but in anyway Aus never allowed Holden to inflict huge economic cost to the nation, and other makes available in Aus market still sale at lowest price by embrace open policy.
biggie – As for the looks ah Beng or not, it depends on personal perspective. Most probably TM coming from Rally background like these Ah Beng thinghy but I don’t think Zainal a stout family and religious man will have the same idea. But then taking out the Ah Beng means that Proton will only try to please the mak cik and uncle (like many here).
Joe Ooi – TM by virtue of involved in Rally background doesn't means he is good in everything about autos. Whether MD SZ have similarity or not with TM, the fact remain that as I explain above, Proton will fail MD SZ misery, not SZ failed to lead Proton. The sad truth is Proton existence failed everybody and everyone, e.g. expected G implement blood sucking NAP, suck consumers blood till last drop by treat them as captive consumers buying it outmoded yet relatively high price bad quality products.
biggie – Its a lose-lose situation for Proton unless they can come up with enough model to cater for both market segment.
Joe Ooi – enough models! Sad truth is their record shown either "replacement models" or rebadge other old model and introduce them as "new" in our market, what the joker!
biggie – As for customer service, its where they need to improve 1st and foremost. But its really difficult as the way it is managed now there isn’t much that Proton can do. but the customers need to be selective on which CS they want to send their cars to.
Joe Ooi – I agree with you about the P1 SC, it is true as what you say and if different SC do thing differently, then what to say about quality after sales service. If to be selective, my advice is not go to anyone after warranty period.
biggie – I don’t care about the car tax, in fact I like to have every car sold in M’sia to tie its tax structure to how many ppl it employs. The more it employ less tax should be paid.
Joe Ooi – current NAP tax is related to CBU, CKD and cc. If NAP tie to how many people it employ, current NAP should scrap and I don't understand how you try to relate these 2 variables – tax and level of employment! Hope you can explain in greater details.
Smile and say "wrong" Joe.
If Holden's shilling nothing but rebadged Fords, The General's gonna be mad – Holden is a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors and has been since the early 1960s when it bought the few outstanding shares held by the Commonwealth Bank and the Bank of South Australia.
And I'm sorry to continue bursting your bubbles, but Holden has the capability to design and develop an entire car, save the gearbox. In fact Holden was in the driver's seat for GM's long awaited "affordable" global rear-wheel-drive platform till the company's US fortunes imploded. Detroit parked the program, but Holden kept in under development and it will appear later this year as the VE series Commodore.
Though Holden used to design its own engines, much of that skill base has been moved offshore. However, the guys running the shop down in Melbourne had the brains to retain key competencies in engine development, and this has been put to use with the V-6 and V-8 powerplants during engine integration programs for the company's Australian-built models.
Yes, there is also a range of rebadged Opels and Daewoos (sorry, no Fords) wearing Holden badges in Oz, but the primary sales volume of the company is the rear-drive Australian-developed and engineered Commodore.
But so much for the Aussies. Now it's time to return to Bolehland.
It's fascinating to see the level (and bitterness) of the Proton-bashing here as well as the cynical attitude some of you mugs show towards a guy like Syed Zainal who's as honest as the day is long and has taken on the tough job of fixing Proton. I suppose that sort of dreary cynicism merely proves Malaysia's links with Britain. Mind you, being like the Brits is nothing I'd be proud of. Buy hey, it's your choice.
Regardless as to the level of banter here, I strongly suspect that none of the people bleating here about Proton would have the stones (let alone ability) to actually try to fix what's wrong with the company. Or even know where to start other than by closing it down. And then I bet you'd bitch about the increase in unemployment.
When you guys mention talking the talk and walking the walk, you ought to try it with a mirror. It's really easy to snipe from the sidelines, but it's another thing altogether to take on a daunting task and give it your all. It looks like working hard towards a goal must not be everyone's cut of tea. Syed Zainal's shown that level of commitment, but there's virtually nobody here other than our host Paul who seems to grasp that basic point. Too bad, since it's your loss. But Syed Zainal deserves some time to pull off any program of change at Proton, and I suppose most of the thinking crowd understand that.
Lastly, the level of generalisation some of you guys show towards Proton and the industry is laughable. It's like some Mat Saleh gets off the KLIA express, is roughed up and robbed by a Malaysian bloke and then says, "ALL Malaysians are thieves". They aren't, and I'd bet credits to navy beans that the same can be said for many of the mob at Proton you seem to relesh in demeaning. Please remember that when you’re painting with a really broad brush, you can expect some of the paint to stick to you, too. So you'd better like the colour.
Matthew Seleigh
every time speak about poton.. everything turn hot la… relax la… this macro thing is so complicated la…. talk so much oso no point… got pros & cons.. but positive critics r still relevan…
but we can be a smart consumer… take the benefit from the current situation.. furthermore we still have P2.. if dont like P1, turn to P2 la.. at least more of our young technicians have job opportunities in P1 or P2.. and can work with many2 vendors outside there oso.. maybe one day our children can work with them oso…. like my fren work with P2.. i can buy P2 cars with staff discount.. she offer me discount for myvi.. but i dont want.. myvi too soft for me.. cars for sissy…hehehe…
Matthew Seleigh said,
April 12, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
Matthew said – Smile and say “wrong†Joe.
It is interesting to give correct picture about Holden, but the one I mentioned about rebatch is as far as I know I read from one article quite sometime ago. Anyway, if you really provide accurate information, then your info shall take precedent! Thank for that. However, at all material time, that doesn't constitute any admission of liability or wrongdoing on my part!
We are neither bashing (bitterness) nor cynical mugs show toward SZ or Proton, or prove any links with Britain as claim by you. You come up with this kind of unsubstantiate, unjustify and no basis statement show you are another typical naive guy which do not understanding the nature and market conditions of Malaysian auto industry. Neither Australia nor Britain have NAP, AP, National car project of the nature and conditions as Malaysian facing now. You may not really understand the suffering we facing as consumers and tax payer. If you are citizen of Malaysia and uphold western democracy value, fair to say you shall at least go to street carry out demonstration or take any radical action which may jeopardise the country security. However, we are polite and good citizen never do that, and the content I posted in Pault Tan site are PURELY DEMONSTRATE THE STRONG DISSATISFACTION AS CONSUMER AS WELL AS TAX PAYERS. I am not like Brits as claimed by you, and definitely also odn't like you simply because we don't have the opportunity to buy quality car which is value for money like your country! Do you agreed!
Yes, I agreed with you that none of us is capable and know how to fix the Proton except close it down simply because we are not qualified, also Proton not economically viable since its inception!
In economic sense, how do you justifyand relate "national car project" to level of employment? Mind you that countries like Thailand, Singapore, Britain and more than 100 other nations in this world don't have such project yet never clamour for national car project to create employment opportunity? You seem have the self-centre view, lack of understanding and knowledge as the initial objectives of setting up Proton? Please read more and once you get a crystal clear holistic view on historical background, I believe you will come up with more objective comment(s).
When you guys mention talking the talk and walking the walk, you ought to try it with a mirror. It’s really easy to snipe from the sidelines, but it’s another thing altogether to take on a daunting task and give it your all. It looks like working hard towards a goal must not be everyone’s cut of tea. Syed Zainal’s shown that level of commitment, but there’s virtually nobody here other than our host Paul who seems to grasp that basic point. Too bad, since it’s your loss. But Syed Zainal deserves some time to pull off any program of change at Proton, and I suppose most of the thinking crowd understand that.
We mainly talk on this issue as consumers and tax payer perspective, of course if you order car and pay huge sum of money, then you expected certain level of satisfactions and value for money! If your argument hold true that ask us to fix Proton problems, then you are another joker same league with Proton. We as consumers pay the money to enjoy the car products, not to fix the manufacturer problems? You even can't distinguish us as consumers at large and Syed Zainal as MD of Proton entrust with the task of leading Proton! "We pay ticket to go into football stadium to enjoy the game, but you ask us to go down to the pitch to kick the ball". What argument you try to put forward here!
Lastly, you mentioned about our level of generalisation towards Proton and the industry is laughable", and you make comparision and equal to "some Mat Salleh get off the KLIA express, is roughed up and robbed by a Malaysian bloke and then says, "ALL Malayisans are thieves". This is utterly your "self proclaim" accusation and reflect your narrow knowledge on us as consumers and tax payers. Therefore, I can concluded that we are not the mob at Proton as claimed by you, but you are the mob of Malaysians' car consumers and tax payer at large! So, the real person who hold the broad brush is you, and you are expected to like any colour which may splash on your shirt/body as a result of you paint work!
Please study the background and get the indepth understanding the Malaysian car consumers and tax payers have to face the financial suffering. Kindly mind your language and use of word(s) by not "make inapprorpiate reperesentations on wrong assumptions"! I advise you do some groundwork, fact findings or a little understanding on the nature of Malaysian car market with specific reference to NAP/Tax structure, etc. If you refer to NAP with tax in aggregate of 280%, are you say it is fair and justifiable? you ask yourself?
For example your country Toyota Camry 2.4L may sale at around USD 20K, Malaysian market at aroud USD 43K! is that OK for you, if you say OK and agreed, then send to me money equivalent to USD 23K so that I can buy Camry instead currently use Proton car? Can you do it, if so I thank you "thousand million TQ, he, he, he,…….. Finally, in the eye of law, the onus is on you to take the burden to proof "beyond reasonable doubt" your statement that "Smile and say “wrong†Joe".
Oh, ooops, Matthew Seleigh, you are "wonderful and fantastic", proof me wrong, proof me wrong, ……… NOT FOR ME TO TAKE BURDEN TO ADMIT AND SAY I AM WRONG!
Ha, ha, ha, huh, ha, ………….
From: Joe Ooi
joe,
I take the last one 1st.
CBU employs sales and after sales personnel
CKD employs limited number of vendors/mfg eng/techs/sales/after sales personnel
National employs designer/R&D eng/mfg eng/vendors/tech/sales/after sales/marketing personnel
Thats why the tax tariff should be as they are now. As the latter provide more revenues and opportunity for the ppl. NAP just take into consideration of ASEAN countries on top of M'sia.
Britain to close the MG Rover the process takes about 30++ yrs. It sold off to many diff. comp not simply closed down. Even then it leaves ghost towns and closure of many related bussineses. But as MG Rover has develop its manpower over the yrs most of the jobless is at NVQ3 level equivalent to our Dip. thus they can be absorbed in other factories, or living under state expenses.
We neither have state welfare for the jobless or highly qualified staff (Proton or vendors)… just imagine the econmic impact. Even now as factories is being closed down we see many social problems. The impact will be worse then.
England have protected car industry until 1970, US until 1980 and Japan until 1990. All of those countries start to mfr cars from pre-WW2 era. China still protect their car industry. And Korea do so until 1998. The same with Australia until Holden being taken over by GM.
Why we need to call our car industry a national project. May be becos the leaders felt that as a colonised nation (unlike the rest of car builfer nation) we do need to feel of owning something. Rightly or wrongly I don't know… but I do read that some M'sian do feel proud when seeing M'sian cars abroad.
Well I know Proton want to stop mfg Iswaras long ago, but sales are still strong, so why cannibalised profit? Same as Wiras. Iswaras is donated by Mitsu at no cost to Proton.
Yeah.. biggie u r rite oso.. joe.. i'm angry too.. but dont take too personal la… may be next time u can try P2 products.. they r ok.. price oso reasonable, since they still import critical parts like engine & gear parts from japan.. & we still can enjoy jap models from P2… i ve used P2 product for many years.. but i can see oso some pros in poton products…especially improved models la.. but cant expect too much la.. bcoz some foreign cars oso got defects here & there.. some not suit our climate… no car is perfect…
u c joe.. policy cant change so fast, especially when talking about national interest (P1 oso have many local investers)… but i am sure P1 cant continue like this.. so wait la 2010.. we' ll see what happen… & so far i like the new P1 MD.. he listens to complain.. not like previous one.. TM…
Biggie: –
If we embrace open market, we shall outdo Thailand and can proclaim as "Detroit of Asia". Our people are generally have better command of English than the Thais, if we have similar open policy, perhaps BMW, Toyota, etc, will come to Malaysia instead of Thailand to set up their factories and the accelerator effects of investment will be in greater quantum. Thus create more job opportunity and stimulate other related industry like vendors, part suppliers, etc.
If you look at the last (No. 6) of NAPs' objectives, It shall enable the consumers to enjoy safe, high quality and value for money cars. But current NAP CarTaxLand is "self-contradictory" apart from not in the spirit of AFTA, WTO, etc. As you are in the opinion NAP provide more revenues and opportunity for the ppl. To who? AP Kings, TM or all the big fat crocs? What the people have is to take the burden of exorbitant and very unreasonable tax.
Talk about closing down Proton doesn't mean its Tanjong Malim spanking factory will be a ghost town. Definitely other interested to take over at least to eassemble their car, even Proton still can exist, instead of rebadge doing contract assembly works. Our scenario won't be like MG Rover, as there are plenty of economic opportunity not only in auto sector, but all sector if we really implement economically viable projects, and do away with so call "white elephant projects".
Yes, many developed and western countries adopted close policy in the past, but they learned the big mistake and the detrimental effects of such policy or policies. Do we have to go through the same cycle of mistakes, can our future generation to bear the economic cost of our mistakes! Remembered that Western and develop countries fairly to say is rich and advance, we are developing countries? How much we can absorb with scarce resources!
Actually Proton and other heavy industries like Perwaja, Cement factories, etc, were conceived in the 1970s and 80s as part of our nation industrialisation vision to be toward developed nation (2020 Vision). But today reality on these industries are best described as "pathetic" in term of contribute toward nation building. In Perwaja case, it is full of controversi and drain out a lot of fund from treasury!
Talk about proud of Malaysian car abroad, it is more on "exception than norm"! If foreigner or oversea market proud of our Proton products, than we can fell proud because we attain recognition abroad like Toyota or Merc. Can Proton display its cars at international show like Tokyo, Franfurt, Geneva or Shanghai motor show? The reality is Proton even got ostricised by local market! What to said, you ask your self!
Yes, Proton talk in the market want to cease production on Iswaras and Wira long ago, but sales is till strong simply because of pricing factor under draconian NAP. If Proton serious in its quality campaige, then the quality improvement shall not limited to fix the power window, open/close door, bumper, etc, but shall look into future holistic view by come out with new model with latest technology, safe and value for money cars! If what you said about Iswara and Wira is truth, then Proton think of short term profits only?
To Matthew Seleigh, you are the one need to learn to smile,………… perhaps "senyum kambing" @ "goats smile" ……… can you, or can't you,…….
Mr Matthew Seleigh (Sorry, how do I pronounce your last name?) Sound very familiar, Mat Salleh? Mere Coincidence?
Are you a Malaysian?
Why do you have to drag the Brits in? I am an ardent supporter of their Premier League.
Since you mentioned Holden, I will use Kangarooland to make comparison.
Do you drive a P1? If not, what car are you driving?
Do you really know our pain? Do you feel it?
Do you work for P1?
Are you impressed with the Chancellor?
Are Holden cars with so many defects?
Genuine parts that are more expensive but a fake substitute can do the job equally well?
Cost of servicing at authorised centres that are far more expensive than non-approved workshops but the latter can perform an equally well job?
A Honda Accord 2.4 is selling for about 100k in Lanjauhi Island but about RM155k in PenisULa, apparently pricing discrimination is being practised in Bolehland, do you have such thing in Kangarooland?
Do the Kangarooland people enjoy free maintenance and servicing for their new cars within certain mileage or period of use?
Is Holden still selling cars of which the design dated some 20 years back?
Is Holden selling cars that cannot meet the industry’s safety standards?
Does the administrator of the Kangarooland impose hefty taxes so that non-Kangaroo car prices are artificially high?
How much is a Mazda 6 selling in Kangarooland compared with a Holden car in the same range?
Do you know the CIF value landed on Bolehland’s shore for Mazda 6 is 45k, and ends up with 150k in show room? How do you justify the difference?
Imagine Mazda 6, winner of so many awards can come to Bolehland’s shore for a mere 45k, why can’t P1 produce cars of such quality and standard at that price? Fine, add another 25K, selling for 70k, fantastic deal!!! 70k for cars of Mazda 6 quality and standard, don’t you want one too?
How much is P1 Waja selling in Kangarooland? At that price, what other types of cars can people in Kangarooland have?
In economy sense, P1 must be able to produce enough cars to achieve the required economy of scale, which means that they have to sell their cars abroad because the domestic demand in Bolehland will not be enough to absorb that volume, then the question is where? P1 cars simply cannot compete with other players in the international arena, because they can’t even compete on its own soil even with ridiculous protection, how many times do I have to say this?
We are very simple and naïve people, we just want basic things, we know that if not for the hefty car taxes, with the same amount of money for P1 cars, we could have much much better cars to choose from, are we asking too much?
FYI, we are not being cynical here, in fact, we could not be bothered with what P1 wants to do, because we believe as long as P1 is here, and the Bolehland’s administrator continues to protect it, our dream of buying decent cars at reasonable prices may well remain a HONDA – THE POWER OF DREAM.
Mind you, I prefer Bolehland’s LAMRI (Ayam spesial, You know what I am referring to?) made and prepared by Bolehland people than Mad Don Erhh’s. Takut kena sued nanti!!! Who say we don’t give Bolehland’s product a chance?
For those of you who think that P1 should be protected no matter how even if their products still not up to the standards for reasons such as pride, employment, or whatever reasons that you can think of. Please read on.
Then, why are we only single out the car market in Bolehland? Please look around in your own house, the electrical home appliances, TV, fridge, washing machines, etc. Aren’t we spoilt with choices? Do we need a Bolehland brand or national electrical home appliance maker? Why don’t we ask the administrator to slap a 200% tax on all the non-Bolehland brand electrical home appliances? After all, we can have pride as we have our very own “national electrical home appliance makerâ€.
A typical 29†flat RisingSunLand brand color TV is selling for about 1,500, tell me if you want it to be increased to 3,000 in order to protect a Bolehland brand TV? TELL ME!!!
My heartiest thanks to Mr. Seleigh, I thought the forum on the Proton Quality Control Campaign is as good as DEAD until you rekindled it with your “Loh Lay Sui†(ask your Cantonese friendlah) view. You managed to turn a ripple into a TIDAL WAVE!!!
Lain kali pikir cukup cukup dulu baru taip lah.
biggie said – "… but I do read that some M’sian do feel proud when seeing M’sian cars abroad."
Joe Ooi – This is my personal experience when I am at UK. Yes, during 1990s, Proton cars in UK still new, and to say do I feel proud? My answer is Yes and No.
Proton all the way play "national car status" card in our Bolehland market and bombarded with all avanlanche of "hype talking" – "buy local products" – "Made in Malaysia". This is a sensible move by G as citizens support is crucial to the survival of this nature of endeavor. Unfortunately, I said it is UNFORTUNATELY, when market in the UK, the advertisement (at least it was truth for year 1994, perhap this may outdated argument) in UK newspaper like Daily Telegraph, NOT only dare not to put in 3 venerable words "Made in Malaysia", BUT merely "Japanese Technology, Malaysian Style". Yes, initially I felt proud seeing our Bolehland cars can reach our former master colonel land. But after a while, what P1 told us in our Bolehland and supposed us to be proud of, but when it come to UK, P1 dare not to put in something they want in Bolehland – "Made in Malaysia". Then what to be proud of? With Jap Tech, M'sia style, how to introduce this product as from Bolehland, perhaps put in "Made in Malaysia" will lead to poor sales.
Today, as good citizen of Malaysia, after using Proton cars for approximately 10 years. In term of brand loyalty, I am unable to find a clear definition in respect of how to define "brand loyalty", but fairly to say that sticking to Proton Brand for 10 years, I consider myself as "loyal customer of Proton". Do I feel proud of Proton? The answer is big NO, after go through all kind of bad experiences with Proton car for more than 10 years.
motorhead
no big deal, I have a big family and we use variety of products P1, P2, Toyota, Honda and whatever. Me… I don't drive that much, in my line of work I rather being driven or take public transport.
During the time Proton started there were no such thing as Detroit of Asia (unfortunately I'm that old to remember the time) or the idea of Detroit of Asia. In fact Proton is the best idea around (at the time). As the passenger car market come crashing down then car mfr looking to emulate Proton/Mitsu model thus opening up the Detroit of Asia idea. Mind you, each holdings in Thailand have to donate part of their share and profit to Thaksin.
Joe,
This is the scenario where big economies open up their market. They know the guys who make cars abroad is theirs, so the profit went back to own countries to pay for concept cars studios/design house etc…etc…. They do not have to worry as the dirty job is being done elsewhere.
Proton need to grow faster, thus we will like to export the dirty job out. But it does not, as M'sian is happy whining but not doing anything much. Do you think that D'lloyd (wira – power window supplier) can survive if another company come up with better product?
Joe..
Yes I stay out of M'sia for very long time and my neighbours back then (and now, I bought the house that I rent) till now still using Proton. He just bought one Savvy for his daughter. I never ask him why.. although I know that he is a miser.
Needgoodcar,
do you know that Proton Wira before tax is only 35K? And to import electronic goods you need to get an AP. We export electronic parts so how can we impose taxes on parts that we export in the 1st place. Look inside Sony radio, many parts is Made in M'sia.
btw rising sun 29 tv at rm1500 but bolehland tv can be bought at rm799. china made is cheaper ar rm599. Don't you think there is some tax hidden somewhere?
to: biggie
I refute your claim that there is no such thing as "Detroit of Asia". I also challenge and disagree your statement that "In fact Proton is the best idea around (at the time)". Remember that if you study history of American Industrialisation success, it is mainly contribute by motor industry, especially GM and Ford. Detroit City is the hub and heartland of American auto industry, even until today, eventhough it is spread to other part of US, especially by Japanese players like Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
As I mentioned before, our government in 1970s and 80s adopted heavy industry programme and devised Proton as part of industrialisation process. It is Proton use US "Detroit" success model in our auto programme. In no way as there is such thing as "emulate Proton/Mitsu model".
You have your opinion on – "Mind you, each holdings in Thailand have to donate part of their share and profit to Thaksin." This is more to do with "political donation" rather than something to do with auto industry. In many part of democracy world, the Western perspective of "money-bag politics" are mostly applicable, even in UK and US. Our Bolehland may have unique "local variant", and termed by local media as "Money Politics"!, in which this phrase has "no meaning" or can't find any meaning if you refer to Oxford Dictionary.
Mind you biggie that manufacturing of cars is not as factory floor "dirty job" as mentioned by you. It is not highly polluted and low tech industry, but big capital and high tech industry. If you check at Toyota or Merc website, they have R & D centre throughout the world, Thailand, Silicon Valley, India, etc which are outside of their countries of origin (Japan and German). Toyota City is located at Japan and Merc also have factories at German, they have production at their home countries as well as oversea. So your statement "They do not have to worry as the dirty job is being done elsewhere." is totally unacceptable and lack of info on your part!
So if you think that D’lloyd (wira – power window supplier) have to survive by not allowing another company come up with better product, then let the consumers continue to suffer?
biggie …. mind you that there are many unhappy car customers, yet some still stick to Proton due to P1 and NAP. We are not bashing P1 but "victim of P1/NAP".
biggie …. mind you that you know Proton Wira before tax is only 35K? My friend involved in export informed me last time that Saga 1.5 L (Pesona) UK specs is around RM 19K only? And without NAP, many car and auto part will be assemble here just like electronic sector, thus shall be at lowest price for consumers. However, we are slap with tax up to 280% Is this fair?
biggie – btw rising sun 29 tv at rm1500 but bolehland tv can be bought at rm799. china made is cheaper ar rm599. Don’t you think there is some tax hidden somewhere?
Joe Ooi – the tax of electrical sector is almost lowest. There is no hidden tax, the price different is due to Japs diffenrent quality and specs products. If what you mentioned hold true, then in Malaysian car sector, Toyota Camry 2.4L shall sell at say around RM 80K, then Perdana V6 at around 60K.
Whoa.. so many info can get from both biggie & joe… but i got your points.. both of you.. i oso donno what to say.. but i am neutral now & wait for end of this month for new proton partnership development.. bcoz i still will buy proton if they produce VW 1.3 GTI… or any other successful models..
Yes, P1 face many problems now… but P1 ve the tools to produce cars.. they'll just need to find the right partner…
joe
american industrial process is very different from Detroit of Asia idea. let me give a lesson in history: for a start Proton start its operation in 1985… Detroit of Asia starts in 1995. And 1985-87 is not a good fiscal year.
Detroit as a hub for mfg is similar to Proton and Shah Alam; or Milan of Fiat and Mitsubishi for Japan. Dotted around those cities and town (Japan is the exception becos of its excellent transportation links) is vendors supplying auto parts just like Detroit. And in those cities the car is conceptualised/design/manufactures/assembled.
Whereas in Rayong (Detroit of Asia) part for the cars is designed/manufactured and assembled. See the difference?
The old Proton/Mitsu model means that the car is conceptualise/designed somewhere else but the parts are manufactured here and assembly process is done here. This concept is being used in Detroits of Asia.
Next: have you been to a car plant? Or have you try to take car apart and put it back. Then you know how difficult to automate that process. GM/Ford/Chrysler have tried various means of automation but fail. The Japanese come up with a better concept of using 'automated human' or in better word discipline workers. Pls read the "The Toyota Way" for more insights.
Toyota plant in Japan and their respective assemblers are very different. In Munich you can see the process from a transparent window.. do you see the same thing in Pekan (the assembler) or Rayong? The fact that most other sub plants use old machine from the home country plant speak volume about the condition of other plants.
The holdings in Thailand are public listed company are like Proton, so you can check their shareholders. Then you can see who hold the shares… this is not money politcs where comp. donate money for campaign like US/UK.
D'lloyd power window need not survive if there are competitors… but of course we only moan and not make competitors. The one around just importers not mfr.
joe,
i work very close with industries – so i know a bit about factory pricing. And tax rate for most countries can be googled its does not take rocket scientist to deduce how much is paid.
NAP gave fair pricing for ASEAN countries and nothing more. The previous tax regiment give discount 50% to P1 ; 75% to P2 and 100% to Naza. So how come P1 is the only one being blamed?
Lastly
If Toyota can make 40% of the part in Thailand then yes it can be sold here for 80k… but thats not the case right?
biggie – look like you have a lot of unnecessay arguements. Many of your statements lack of justifications. In my opinion, on many instances, you can't elaborate objectively including "low level of intellectual value". Just to mentioned on this: –
"Lastly
If Toyota can make 40% of the part in Thailand then yes it can be sold here for 80k… but thats not the case right?"
US market can sell at RM 68K. For Toyota Fortuner produce in Thailand, they sell it at RM 100K ++, compare to our market sell at around RM 170K?
However, I still respect your right of opinion, eventhough I disagree with you on many occasions.
Biggie say:
do you know that Proton Wira before tax is only 35K? And to import electronic goods you need to get an AP. We export electronic parts so how can we impose taxes on parts that we export in the 1st place.
I say :
Did i ever mention import of electronic goods? What i tried 2 say was if the electrical home appliance industry is to operate like the car industry where heavy taxes r imposed on NON-BOLEHLAND brands. Making NON-BOLEHLAND brands very much expensive than BOLEHLAND brands.
Biggie say:
Look inside Sony radio, many parts is Made in M’sia.
I say:
Actually who care about where these parts are made? As long as they r parts made meeting international quality and standards.
Biggie say:
btw rising sun 29 tv at rm1500 but bolehland tv can be bought at rm799. china made is cheaper ar rm599. Don’t you think there is some tax hidden somewhere?
I say:
Exactly.
RisingSun brands (Made in Bolehland also) about 1,300lah, rip-off if buy for 1,500, international class ONE quality and standards. If not, how can export and compete internationally? Great demand somemore….wahlaueh…this is called PRIDE lah.
Bolehland TV (I presume it's Bolehland made brand) about 799, quality and standards OK meh? Plz ask SenQ, Onking, ESH, Courts, Carrefour, Giant, Denki, etc. Are we comparing rambutan to rambutan here? Are Bolehland TVs equipped with the same tech features like their RisingSun counterparts? Need to sit near near not when watching EPL? Takut bola tak tahu mana piki…ha ha ha….
Dragonland TV, you dare to use meh? Got "Zilim" certification not? Never the mindlah, Mamak stalls can buylah, ooops…There are mamak stalls nowadays pakai 42 inci projection TV. Plz name one Bolehland or Dragionland brand projection TV. It's projection TV, mate.
Plz don drag HAIER in, it's in a different league, the Champion's League. Value for money, 7+++ for a 42 inci Plasma TV, quality not bad some more, I ni tunggu harga turun bawah 5,000.
Form the above analysis, if you fork out 1,300, you can choose any RisingSun brands, 799? Bolehland brands-lah tu, but you sure as good as RisingSun brands? 599? This type of TV not suitable for watching "hamsap" showslah,…he he he
Conclusion : Price should commensurate with quality and standards, not 1st class price for lower class quality and standards.
Cukup said.
One last question..are u in anyway related to Mr Seleigh?
Joe
thats how car is taxed under NAP not under US/UK tax regime.
NeedGoodCar
Biggie are not related to anyone in this forum.
biggie said,
April 17, 2006 @ 11:15 am
Joe
thats how car is taxed under NAP not under US/UK tax regime.
Joe Ooi – Conclusions is NAP is sucking blood @ hisap darah!
Where is Matthew Seleigh? Waiting for your reply! If you come in with this kind of "avalanche of shit comments" including disrespect to Brits, and if I am Brits, I will give you a "bloody nose".
Thanks, Joe.
Just check with my lecturer, my question will more towards the impact of economic integration that will have an impact on Proton company's policies and decision making. And I am not too sure about how AFTA, ASEAN or even APEC that have change any Proton policies or have they decided to take certain action other that reducing prices in facing such an economic integration. Joe, maybe you will have some ideas.
crystal – Actually I had done my own indept analysis more on economics aspects on comparative analysis (Prices analysis between M'sia close market and US open market) rather than management or leadership. If you don't mind, give me more info on the following: –
a. Post your Email here so that I can send relevant info for you which I believe is of beneficial to you. For academic field, always be FOCUS and just use relevant info to do your dissertation. What is important is my info is just "additional/top-up" as it is unpublished material. Main info and proper quotes (e.g. Footnote, numerical, Harvard System) should always refers to published sources like text books, journal publications, conference papers, etc.
b. What is your Aims, Objectives, Methodology, Hypothesis (if any) or Scope of Study/Limitations.
c. I may suggest that your content of study (literature review) also constitute PEST (Political/Legal, Economics, Social and Technology factors) on Macro issues/environment issues and SWOT (Strength and Weakness, Opportunity and Threat) analysis on Micro issues – Proton.
d. I supervise students before in their final year dissertation project as part of academic requirement, so I can and have the confident to say to you that I can help you in this matter.
e. I have the necessary materials and info including how to make proper referencing/ how to quote which I believe can help you to achieve your academic excellency.
f. If you don't mine, let me have info on your dissertation before I can give further ideas so as to ensure it is more objective.
Regards,
Dear Joe,
Actually I regretted not to post my question earlier, it is a project that I have written through yesterday night, if you don't mind, maybe you can look through it, I will attach my question together, it is based on my understanding of Proton through what is being publish on the internet and newspaper articles. Anyway, my e-mail is [email protected]. BTW, it is kinda last minute work.