UPDATE: Proton Persona SE now on sale for RM59,800!
When a new national car is about to be launched, many will start to speculate on the name, and this is also the case with the new Proton sedan.
Word passing through the grapevines is that the new Proton sedan will be called the Proton Persona, and there was even a little photo being circulated of the sedan with the word Persona on it’s number plate.
Today we get a little confirmation – though not 100% sure as it is not from Proton’s mouth. The Edge carries an article on the new Proton Sedan and it calls the new car the Proton Persona. This name is not new, as it has been used by Proton in the past as the export market Proton Wira’s name in the UK.
The article also mentions Proton targets to sell about 4,000 units of the Proton persona a month, though industry analysts from RHB Research Institute thinks a figure of 2,000 to 2,500 Proton Personas a month is more achievable and sustainable.
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Wira in UK is called Persona… don’t think they will reuse the same name back. Some UK-spec Wira sold here still carries the Persona name. How then? Confusing le!
makes sense in a way… it is essentially the new wira so its okay to continue using a variant of the wira’s name, even if it is a name used in other markets. no word neo tagged on the end this time.
yes, i agree with u paul, would probably be marked as the proton persona mkII in UK. im sure this car would do well overseas as well, if they fixed all flaws and dont suffer jeremy clarkson’s bashing
When talking bout persona name……does it mean it will replace wira?…..no more wira at all
persona a beautiful name
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nmh said,
August 3, 2007 @ 7:52 pm
When talking bout persona name……does it mean it will replace wira?…..no more wira at all
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it has been lots of talks that wira and iswara is going to be replaced. well, proton started with replacing wira first
hey…look at this pic…..
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/7950/personaks1.jpg
someone said dat it it already put on the owners manual…
This is replacement for saga/wira? makes sense to just continue using an already available name
pesona. UK version of wira. good name :)
To acbc.
First – There’s nothing wrong to use Persona. As UK people know this name already, so this model can be like 2nd Generation of Proton Persona (2nd Generation Wira for local). Besides, once this new sedan is out, Proton will stops the production of its 15 years old Proton Wira. So, it’s a good news. If you say confused. Why? Other car manufacturers also maintain the name from one generation to another based on each model/class/series. Why create so many different names if the purpose is mainly to replace that particular model. Hopefully, next time Proton replaces its Proton Waja, Proton will call it Proton Impian as UK also use to the name.
Second – Persona is a nice name.
Third – Name very important too and should be more organised and have to be the same wherever it is. Just like other manufacturers maintain the name based on each model / class or series wherever they sell the car to. Last time Proton have different name for each model and called it differently in other countries. Not a good idea. Toyota even the upcoming 10th Generation Toyota Corolla still remain the same name and other countries too. Be a international name so that people around the world will know the brand and the name better. For example, if here we call A, one country call B, another country call C even the brand and model/class or series the same. Don’t you think even confusing? Foreigners come to our country and see the car thought that rebadge car later just because the name different. So will effect the brand name.
Fourth – First time Proton use the same name instead of using brand new name was when Proton replaced its Satria model but with added extra name “NEO” – called Satria Neo also known as 2nd Generation Satria. Which I think is a very good move.
it is very likely to be called PersonA according to a trusted source and I think it is not bad a name at all.
Why not just use Gen2? It’s essentially a Gen2, with a longer butt. Then they can call the sedan Gen2, and rebrand the current ones as Gen2 Aeroback, like they did with the Wira.
Gen2 has got a lot of problems previously and given Proton’s situation in the market at the moment as compared to Perodua, they are really desparate to rub off the bad image brought by Gen 2 and hope to boost the sales by letting the ppl know that this is a brand new product that will be up to expectation. In fact, I think this new Sedan (Persona) will be positioned in between Gen2 and Waja in the market.
So, when this Persona export to UK, it will call Wira?
why, they dont use Spanish name.. VIVAH ka..prrrfthhh
aesthari said,
August 3, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
Why not just use Gen2? It’s essentially a Gen2, with a longer butt. Then they can call the sedan Gen2, and rebrand the current ones as Gen2 Aeroback, like they did with the Wira.
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satria and wirA OSO SHARing same platform.. only hatchback and sedan..why no complaint when they use different name
I would think they might be using Persona, as to sync the global market for this product. As to phase out the existing Wira on the international market. This just my perception.
Anyway there’s doubt whether they would phase out Wira out on our market. Still a big question mark after this model launched.
Cheers
agree with Paul. In that case, this carl continue version of Wira, so Persona (UK spec) should be ok and nothing new about it except this is new model.
peYno-1,
1st, VIVAH is not a Spanish name, it’s origin from Latin. The original word is viva and one of the derivations is vivah, meaning; Full of life, Springtime.
2nd, Why Wira and why Satria? Its call ‘marketing’. Enough said.
3rd, are you real peyno or you are just peyno wannabe?…
or wait a minute, did Paul banned you? OMG, pity you. :|
people,
my comments :
1) Pesona is a good name, and i agree that following the Satria – Satria Neo fottsteps, Proton can stop trying to invent new names and start using back the model name it replaces…and yes, this is a Wira Replacement..! , starting a new trend used by all the top manufacturers in the worls
2) Just becoz it’s a gen2 Sedan, it CAN be called other name. Eg. VW Golf, sedan version is call Passat, mid siz version called..i forgot the name.. HONDA, Jazz & City, also the same thinng. TOYOTA, Yaris & Corolla…
SOOOO…. there is absolutely nothing wrong to use a new name.
PERSONA IS REMIND ME TO THE WIRA MODELS 4 UK SPEC..TO CHANGE A NEW NAME 4 ME IS NOT GOOD AT ALL..ITS JUST THE GEN.2 WITH A LONG BOOT TRUNK..HOW ABOUT THE GEN.2-S..( S- REFER TO SEDAN )..OR GEN.2-4 ( 4- REFER TO 4-DOOR )…JUST OPINION..
Nyawere,
FYI. The Sedan of the Golf is called the Bora/Jetta.
Only reason why Proton hasn’t been using its past names is because those names “could” have a negative sentiment to them. However, Being called the Persona might be good as export markets cars usually do fairly well in terms of customer satisfaction (Good service, ok reliability, good value for money), completely oposite of the local experience.
However, I fear there may be even more discounting by Proton for the Wira and Waja. Especially when they have quite some of them in inventory. Bad news for people who own a newer Wira (SE) or Waja Campro. Seriously, does Proton need 5 sedans in its lineup (Saga/BLM, Wira, Gen2/G2 Sdn, Waja, Perdana)?
Something is going to get chopped.
Saga, Iswara, Wira, Tiara, Waja, Perdana, Satria, Arena, Juara (ok you can forget about Tiara and Juara).. What do they have in common? All of those has names which ends with letter “A”. Those were the days when you could see 6/10 cars on the road were Protons.
Then they introduced Gen2 and Savvy, which names doesnt end with “A” (although you can argue that Gen 2 is actually pronounced as Gen DuA). When Gen2 was introduced, they said that Proton was moving towards a 2nd generation, which turned out to be a total failure. This is a jinx, a jinx with the names. So this time, they are turning back to the tradition and call this new car Persona. Hopefully, this would make them “A” class car producer.
peYno-1:
Wira and Satria, it’s the same platform, but the cars look significantly different. I know that VW does that with their Jettas and Golfs, Honda with their Jazzs and Citys, Toyota their Beltas and Yaris, all hatches and sedans and so on. The Gen2 we have now and the sedan looks at least 90% alike though, and the parts it uses; they are probably 80-90% similar too, so it’s essentially a Gen2. And I ain’t complaining, just wondering.
4G63T DSM said,
August 4, 2007 @ 7:59 am
Bad news for people who own a newer Wira (SE) or Waja Campro. Seriously, does Proton need 5 sedans in its lineup (Saga/BLM, Wira, Gen2/G2 Sdn, Waja, Perdana)?
Something is going to get chopped.
==========================
Welcome to real automotive industry..CHOICE.. this is the fact n reality all car makers have to face..
In Japan they hv many type of mpv segment ,K cars produced by the same manufacturer..
Proton GEN-2: Gen-nerally a bad car.
Just how badly do you want a brand-new car? What are you prepared to sacrifice to ensure brand-spanking newness; that untouched, gleaming, never-been-driven feeling?
If you want a new car desperately – make that pathologically desperately – we would still struggle to recommend a Gen2, Proton’s new Wira replacement. It’s that disappointing.
It has its good points, so let’s get those out of the way first. It won’t take long. And if you happen to be hell-bent on buying a brand-new car and a nearly new Focus won’t do, these are the only points you’ll remember anyway.
It’s good value, at least for interior kit. The 1.6 GLS model you see here comes with air conditioning and a Blaupunkt sound system with a 10-disc CD changer, and retails at £9595. It has dual airbags as standard, but no electric mirrors. You’ll need to opt for the £10,595 GSX to get those; that version also comes with standard side airbags and anti-lock brakes. So you don’t get anti-lock on lower models, which seems a glaring oversight in 2004.
Compare the price with those of its similarly specced rivals and the Gen2 GLS is good value. Rover 25 1.6 SEi: £12,795. Ford Focus 1.6 LX: £13,300. Honda Civic 1.6 SE: £13,013. Vauxhall Astra 1.6 16v Life: £12,495. The Proton undercuts them all effortlessly.
It looks good, too. Styled with help from Proton-owned Lotus, it’s a well-proportioned, well-detailed car and is a pleasure to view from every angle. The nose is neat, with none of the grille paraphernalia that sometimes blights new cars from the Far East, and the rear lights are equally handsome. The dash is well designed, too, with a stylish Lotus-esque centre console, nicely integrated stereo and a neat instrument cowling.
The car rides and handles satisfactorily, with no obvious vices as long as you don’t expect Elise-like fun. The cheap Sime tyres lose grip very early in the proceedings as the car howls toward the verge with terminal understeer. The ride jiggles a little too much on washboard ripples, but is otherwise comfortable, with decent damping. The gearchange is quick and direct, and is the best of the controls.
However, the driving position is so awkward it borders on the bizarre. You sit far too high, with no way to lower the seat other than a tight knob which only lowers the front edge of the cushion. And the steering wheel – a hard black plastic affair with all the tactile delicacy of a granite slab – won’t rise high enough, leaving itself on your lap, between your knees. Tall drivers willl find the top of the instruments are obscured by the top of the wheel, which is unforgivable in a 21st-century car.
The problems don’t end there. The build quality inside is nasty, even for a car at this price. The plastic single-piece door trims, the centre bin with its flimsy hinges, the dastardly little swivelling cup holder and the switches and plastics are all so low-rent that they’re almost squatting. Combine that with a noisy cabin and you have a distinctly ordinary motoring experience, even for the money.
The 110bhp ‘Cam Pro’ 1.6 has adequate power and torque, but all the thrust is delivered at the top end, where it becomes extremely thrashy and makes you reach for ear defenders. It has the aural delight of a toilet extractor fan – the loudest one you’ve ever heard. This is a very poorly insulated engine.
The Gen2 very nearly became Rover’s next medium car. Good job for Rover that deal never happened.
Bill Thomas – Autocar
Well, this is what i call ” the more u pay, the more u get!” The cheaper u pay, the cheaper the material (Quality) u get.. Simple as that!
Proton Persona…emmm ain’t sounds bad at all to me. Well go ahead with it, Proton.Nevertheless name is not everything. By the way what meaning does it bring ? Anyway I do believe names bring the image of the cars anyway.
For instance, some of the nice & weird car’s name (You judge yourself which is nice and weird ok):
1) Rolls-Royce Phantom
2) Lamborghini Diablo
3) Chevrolet Corvette
4) Daihatsu Naked
5) Honda Life Dunk
6) Volkswagen Thing
7) Mazda Bongo
8) Mtsubishi Pistachio
9) Suzuki Cappucino
Well apparently carmakers that give their cars, numbers and/or letters for names tend to be upscale. This applied to the brands such as BMW, Merc, Lexus, Jag, Aston Martin,Infiniti, Acura, and Volvo.
Don’t forget Fiat Multipla. Platipus-looking MPV. That’s one sick animal car.
Here, the evil twin simply called Proton Juara.
Paul, permission. Out of topic for a while:-
By the way…Toyota has just released their new IST (2nd generation-model change) in Japan. Quite stylish IMHO.
http://www.carview.co.jp/magazine/photo_impression/2007/toyota_ist/
Only one thing that’ll ensure Proton Persona from being doomed:
GLOVEBOX.
Lets hope this car has the quality to sastify customers, i think its design is quite pleasant, seeing the spyshots n computer graphics
Some1 said the engine’s ECU is tweaked to deliver more torque on lower RPMs? Is tat true? If it is, it will be a smoother ride compared to the old Campro, n less revving sound pollution!
torishimeyakuin,
the new IST looks tough! like a mini SUV…hehe..the rear bottom reminds me of new CRV butt…lolx
Yes Peyno-1, Choice is good. For consumers looking for a new car, that is.
Not for Proton….
Nor someone that just bought a new “soon-to-be-discontinued” car….or “one-that-will-be-heavily-discounted-to clear-inventory” car.
if Proton GEN-2: Gen-nerally a bad car or a bad name, then y not also change the company name.. proton… it is sooo bad… i propose a new name call electron… ha ha ha… negative name..
SHOULD HAVE GLOVEBOX….CLEARER AUDIO CONTROL…NO MORE SUCKING CREAM COLOUR…SQUARISH AIR-COND VENT…..FLAT DASHBOARD…CHEAP PLASTIC FEEL….SIGH!!!
hmm…….calling it persona…..it heard better than wira. hopefully it improve massively from the interior of gen2. just can’t accept the interior of the gen2, from my point of view. same to others i guess.
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Vengeance said,
August 4, 2007 @ 12:38 pm
Lets hope this car has the quality to sastify customers, i think its design is quite pleasant, seeing the spyshots n computer graphics
Some1 said the engine’s ECU is tweaked to deliver more torque on lower RPMs? Is tat true? If it is, it will be a smoother ride compared to the old Campro, n less revving sound pollution!
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The spec told in the website and also from my salesman friend confirm that the setting of the engine still same with Waja or Gen.2. The only difference is the Auto Gearbox TCU have been updated to coupe the rev high of this engine.. So be prepare that this car will auto help u rev high! Conclution is the engine n management is still the old Campro setting.. U still have to rev high.. Unless they came out with VIM, then maybe this problem can be solve..
is time to live up to the WRM name d
HOPEFULLY IN THIS NEW MODEL..NO MORE DOUBLE-LAYER DASHBOARD DESIGN..SUCKING CREAM COLOUR SCHEME..SQUARISH AIR-COND VENT.. HAVE A GLOVEBOX..BRA-CUP SPEEDOMETER DESIGN..LOOK ANNOYING!!!!
Well, about 10 more days to go. Clock is ticking. Can’t really wait for the launch even though not planning to buy a brand new car. Haha…. excited that’s all.
the british magazine writers has always been harsh on asian cars until toyota and honda show them they can be better or equal to their european rival…they we harsh on korean model and bash them to max now koreans have changed alot and the bashing already reduced to a minimal level..those writers think their the greatest people on earth and some even bash without sense…they have similar attitude like many malaysians…that the reason almost all british ca manufacturer all losing money and many have close shop..even football the same..they just bash for no reason and even with all star team cant achieve anything and always talk bout past(bout winning the 1966 world cup) so please dont really trust what they say…the like to spoil everything and over demanding..the noise insulation in proton is good…on par with japanese..but still kena bash cause they dont have other thing to talk about…how many of us has accidently crack the key of proton perdana even when the engine has started..even on proton waja and savvy…but the always say its noisy..all is bullshit cause they can think of any proper reason to bash..if compare savvy,kia picanto,perodua viva,perodua kelisa,hyundai getz 1.4 and any other car in its class i think proton savvy has the best sound insulation but still kena bash…they are just worried and jealous of malaysian…we still have our own car manufacturer and even bought one of their…haha…and they dont own any anymore except for aston martin but most of them can own aston martin…hahaha..its very true…they are jealous and worried that asian automotive industry will grow past them…that why they always have something to say…they got no rights to stop people from buying a car…they can only help and guide people…but they always stop people from buying or force people to think malaysian and korean products are crap…JC even destroy a perodua kelisa buy say it has no soul…how can we create a car with soul??and what he meant buy saying cheap cars has no soul and etc…he is rich..so he can buy expensive…but for people with low income..cheap cars is their everything…dumb european writers….we dont earn as much as u guys in asian country so please do some research then talk..dont compare with much estabilished car manufacturers…because u guys are too demanding(like some malaysians) thats the reason you dont have ur own car manufacturer and had to close rover and your football team with all star cant even win a cup…and malaysian…dont be like them….
Malaysian football also suxs also… they bash until toyota and honda show them they can be better or equal to their european rival…they we harsh on korean model and bash them to max now koreans have changed alot and the bashing already reduced to a minimal level.. This is good, compare to us act so slow.. Today my friend new 07′ Waja just broke 2 of the 4 door openers for just 3 months.. When taken out, the door handle only use plastic to hold to the door..
Kia picanto are best in budjet car category… Savvy ppl know engine take from renault clio, no special.. Campro engine is proven need to rev high to get power, that why is noisy (If so great why savvy don’t use Campro 1.3L?).. Compare to same category engines such like VVT-i, CVTC engine which use full aluminum compare us Campro engine = half metal, half plastic, half magnesium, half aluminum engine.. (Still using odinary DOHC) Even China cars have VVT and direct injection engine, why not us? Anywayz savvy is in 1.2L category..
When u saw an Alfa romeo u can felt the italian soul.. But either Waja, savvy and gen.2 don’t let me felt Malaysian also, maybe louzy lotus design? Proton is an international brand, and must design more international product to improve sales..
G always protect their pocket, if they can help our car market. should push proton to improve faster and sent out better new cars + new technology.. Even UK spec Gen.2 got side air-bags why not us? Their perdana have traction control, why not us? Even their pricey a bit compare to us , but they have more better safety spec .. (Even basic 04′ gen.2 have 2 air bags..) G is weak on implementing car safety in our country, while just care about $$$, development and own satisfaction.. that why ming zhi also sing negaraku in Chinese, election is near.. please do the right decision..
Prem3377,
“because u guys are too demanding(like some malaysians) thats the reason you dont have ur own car manufacturer and had to close rover and your football team with all star cant even win a cup”
If we r not demanding, P1 will continue produce lousy cars til today…it is becoz of our demands P1 start to show some improvements…do u wan to drive a 20 year old chasis n engine plus no safety featured car? do u wan to spend 40k to buy a 20 year old car? now u can spend 49k to get a car(P1 Persona) with an airbag to save ur life in accidents!
Rover have to close becoz british gov doesnt pamper them,they didnt ask $$$ from gov which is the people’s money, not like P1, after 20 years only start to show improvements…wat did they do in the last 20 years? juz sit there sucking $$$ obviously, thnx to our gov who keeps giving them $$$ when they screw up, they bcome dependant, lazy, n at last, useless…now they were hit hard in the a s s n start to improve, they realize in this era of globalisation, they need to improve to compete with other ppl! (Im not bashing P1, juz saying facts, as i said they’re starting to improve)
rover automotive industry is a good lesson for us to look into,
and at the same time the strive of korean auto manufacture is also a good example, to follow.
entering the free market, for every people involve with proton, and us can make projection to the fate of proton, therefore put proton under pressure to put its best effort, which i know they will and the did something and they need it 200% effort, well it not gonna be overnight,
what has planned is somewhat realized now ,but just a little behind of time,
the heart of proton are the technology, and manufacturing (vendor and parts appointed) need to be sorted fast, well.. they did
– the upcoming engine update, and improvement of material , design and strategy as well, is part of assurance to eneble for proton to move foward initially, and perpatuately ,
This model if selling well, likely will “eat” into Wira and Gen-2 market share but likely not contribute to additional or improve overall sales figure for Proton.
I think put 200% tax on foreign cars compare to force them to put 200% effort.. If they really put their effort in, why still hold the NAP/AP issues.. Still not yet fully open market.. This is what i can call scare to fight the real world, kia si.. Our G so good, always pour our money in.. Ppl like Ford/ Rover need to loan money from bank and G. “LOAN” not give is borrow! They still need to pay back, that why they have a lot of debt.. except for P1, give them free money.. Did u saw any money from G is loan for them officially in news paper? Always use help reason to pour money in, that why they don’t do it in great effort.. I respect Rover/Ford more better then P1, coz they do it by them self and accept failure..
Proton Holdings Bhd’s soon-to-be-launched 1.6-litre Wira replacement model (WRM), to be named Persona
___________________________________________________________________________
Hey, 1.6 wira sedan was replaced by waja in year 2000 already la…..
LIttlefire85 and Vengeance:
I have a few simple requests and questions for you two.
1) Do you have any kind of figures/sources to back up your wide sweeping generalized statements? Eg. Govt using people’s money… care to elaborate*?
2) How old are you two?
3) What does that have to do with the name of the new Proton Sedan?
4) Stop implying that Proton is overcharging. As i have replied in previous threads, proton cars offer good value for money – with or without NAP.
5) Avoid using case examples and base generalizations on them. I could go around posting that a TOYOTA altis got flooded (as posted in LY forums) and go on to make generalized statements about Toyotas… but i dont. Because it’s not exactly common. Many people use protons on a daily basis.,.. and have nowhere nearly as much problems as what you seem to imply. Fallacy of reasoning. Lack of perspective.
*Yes, i understand that proton is protected by tariffs. But even without tariffs (NO GOVT PROTECTION), a ~1200kg class Civic sedan will be RM80k+. So proton’s upcoming gen2 ~1200kg sedan should be quite reasonable at RM50k. Dont go around trying to imply that they are expensive etc. They simply arent. Of course, you cant compare the tech/safety/build of a RM50k car with a RM80k car… just know that if you got the RM50k car you will have RM30k to spend extra. So what if a few parts need replacing. Besides, withing first three years got warranty anyway.
ezralimm, let me ask u simple question? Do u pay ur income tax? Where the tax go? Can u tell me? And u tot the G money fell from sky izzit? I didnt say this car is bad, just that what do u felt so much problem in P1 cars? Just i mention up, Waja new this year 07, 3 months only broke 2 door handle.. Yes u get warranty! But the time u waste in the service center, the difficulty of ur friends and family going in the car.. what do u felt! Yes, Toyota have faulty parts, but they recall all of the products to replace, even some have not spoil they also recall back.. Proton, even they know the past product has a lot of faulty, did they recall all of the cars to replace their power window or other parts (except the alloy rims from waja)? They know the problem is there, they don’t want to do it coz they want user to use it until spoil then come and do. Even they warranty the parts to u, how about service charge? I think i am the one who should ask u, how many proton cars u own before?!? Compare to my dad from Saga to Wira.. Even me drove my Kancil have less problem then my father wira.. Why i know the car have so much problem? Coz i am the one who take all my family car to fix in my friend mechanic shop.. 10 years old wira, overhall 2 times.. power window lucky replace Mitsubishi second hand parts.. If original maybe don’t know rosak how many times…
Even the proton spare parts sell to the cops also fake and kena tangkap.. how about us consumer? Dont tell me all the spare part shop, even service center in Malaysia all sell original parts? I think u r the one who never go to mechanic shop/ Chop shop / spare part shop more then us.. If u always wonder to those place, i bet the car u will seen most is Proton cars in it! and that the fact! Even u say proton cars are a lot in malaysia, why perodua cars i less seen?
I hate it n also love it, but do we have choice? the only affordable car in Malaysia with such a good spacious car is only from proton. With ur gaji around RM2-4k a month do u think u can buy a Honda or Toyota car? Even a secondhand car also think twice.. With a family and the house loan, ur mouth.. Ur words seem easy to say, maybe u rich guy ezralimm with no need pay tax.. Maybe u stay in kampung also, no need pay land tax..
We all stand on between, if proton really came out good product. We will buy it also right? Who don’t want to buy a good, cheap, reliable and powerful car? Anywayz why UK spec have side air bags? While us dont have? Ask urself.. does this mean the moon is brighter on oversea then us?
ezralimm, can u tell me where these money come from to help those rugi dealers?
http://paultan.org/archives/2007/05/17/proton-dealers-snub-rm150000-vss-offer/
Persona is fine..did someone mention Alfa Romeo and Italian soul..Yes Italian make good cars…and i have friends who owns alfa..the feedback is…good but the problems…engine overheat is no small matter..gearbox…a Fiat owner experience gearbox failure twice in a year,10k already spent and problems still not rectified..now its left in the workshop..poor guy…again who says Italian cars is lousy…
I think ur friend need a good mechanic to help him.. My mechanic own a alfa romeo 147 1.5L boxter engine, gearbox until now no problem.. use until 10 years now only overhall 1 time, coz casket leak.. Anyway don’t follow the use manual provided by the italians.. this is the advice from my mechanic, coz our country is tropical country, hot and wet. Compare to Italy which have 4 seasons.. Our car lubricant must change frequently, The gearbox if i not mistaken, must change the lubricant after 20,000 km for longer life.. The original manual say either is 40-50,000 km, that very long man.. our weather can easily made the lubricant spoilt and coz the gearbox to fail.. this is what i heard from my mechanic, if ur friend is from penang he can contact this mechanic LAN 012-4884172. He is really pro in tuning boxter type engine, even porsche he can fix.
ezralimm, this new model selling at RM 30K to RM 40K only consider “reasonable”.
Same to MyVi, shall sell at RM 25K to RM 35K only consider “reasonable”.
Same to Viva, shall sell at RM 20K to RM 30K only consider “reasonable”.
Honda Civic, shall sell at RM 55K to RM 70K only consider “reasonable”.
ezralimm, if Persona selling from RM 45K to RM 55K to be consider “reasonable”, it must have the latest techy like VIM, CPS, VVTI, ABS, EBD, compulsory Airbag, 5 years warranty, etc, etc, etc, the best available in the market in the same segment!
Littlefire 85, thanks for the info..i still like my e36..the old faithfull..out of topic..sorry..
acbc said,
Wira in UK is called Persona… don’t think they will reuse the same name back. Some UK-spec Wira sold here still carries the Persona name. How then? Confusing le!
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97 corolla is corolla, 2003 corolla also call corolla, 2007 corolla still call corolla.
Why cant Persona keep the name, so people would assume Persona 2nd Generation.
For me keeping those name maing it on 2nd or 3rd or may be 4th generation, better than in later date call it Wira, Putra, Satria or Hang Tuah or Merdeka or papa mama.
Oh boy here we go again.
Bigfish, i urge you to research car prices overseas. OTR prices..not internet prices. I am quite sure you will not find a RM55k Civic anywhere. The prices you mention are not realistic. A baseline civic is about RM72k OTR here in Australia…same as Langkawi (disregard internet prices, they are not OTR usually)
IMO, a person earning RM3k with a family to support cannot afford a RM72k Civic (assuming NAP DIDNT EXIST). A Proton sedan will be much more affordable. So stop putting ideas into ppl’s heads that a civic will only cost RM55k if proton didnt exist. It simply will not. Spreading that idea will simply make people unnecessarily angry for no reason. Coffeeshop talk. Coffeeshop rhetoric. Coffeeshop ideas.
LittleFire85, you still have not responded to my simple questions. Answer them and I will answer yours.
No sources, no figures, nothing to backup your really really big, sweeping claims. I consider it _hot air_ until you could at least find some examples to back up your claims. As far as i know, Proton is run as a corporate entity. You seem to think the govt just gives money to proton. Do you have any sources for that statement?
Incoherent statements; Request clarification:
“We all stand on between, if proton really came out good product.”
“Even u say proton cars are a lot in malaysia, why perodua cars i less seen?”
Personal attack (flaming). PaulTan, pls take action.
“With a family and the house loan, ur mouth.. Ur words seem easy to say, maybe u rich guy ezralimm with no need pay tax..”
Well, you also seem to simply say things. As far as i know, people who own Fiat’s and Alfa’s complain alot about all sorts of problems. As for people who own protons, asides from some small problems, there dont seem to be as many major complaints (eg. drivetrain failure). Your dad’s wira needed two overhauls in 10 years? I smell fish. It’s not likely a car engine will die that fast. Questions such as: Was it well serviced? Timing belt changed regularly? pops into my mind when you mentioned that. The wira even uses a mitsubisihi engine and drivetrain. So are you saying that is unreliable? Remember there are also people with good experiences with proton. My family was perhaps lucky to have one. 220,000km perdana with no major problems – but then, it was serviced by the book all the way.
ezralimm, can u tell me where these money come from to help those rugi dealers?
__________________________________________
The ninth malaysia plan. Yes, the govt actually budgets for the development of the local automotive industry. The RM500m allocated is reasonable for a country with a ~RM1,000,000,000,000 GDP (Purchasing Power Parity adjusted value).
It’s really nothing on a national level. Other countries do the same thing too. I just learnt, from a rural industries visit, that even Australia gives grants to develop underperforming sectors of the economy.
LittleFire85,
please dont say things if you dont know…alfa and fiat is well known for their reliability issue and one of the few cars which can easily be on fire…my uncle owned an alfa 146 and after 3 years there was too many problem and there was no secondhand value…alfas are well known for their unreliable engines..until 156 and 147 models…please dont back them up just because they are from italy.
secondly i totally agree with ezralimm,
and to LittleFire85,
The G dont use our income tax to pay proton and if the do..why Proton’s account still showing red?why they still showing that they are losing money??why must they sell MV Agusta and etc??the G use our income tax to develop the country and etc..proton is also part of the development…the roads,school,hospital,petrol,development project and etc is funded by the G..does that money fall from the sky??every country in the world charge tax,income tax and etc…can u name me 3 countries that is totally tax free??some tax in our country is extremely high..the NAP cause the car prices to be expensive and i do agree bout that but we are a developing country and proton still need protection cause in japan they still protect their car manufactures..in south korea too..thats the reason you dont see much foreign makes in their country..in europe its a different story cause they have EU and they have tax to protect their entire continent and in US too…developing countries like india and china do help their automotive manufacturers too…in china to sell a foreign make,the company should join venture with a local manufacturer and grant them they rights to produce the car and name it with a local name…so that is a sort of protection..in india too…thats the reason suzuki had to join venture with maruti to sell the swift there…so protection is always need to protect the country and ensure growth..many makes in this country sell cars cheap cars cheaper because they know they have to compete with proton..for example many are say proton latest sedan is over priced…the base version is rm45,000 and the h line is rm 55000…if you compare it to a 1.3 h line perodua myvi selling at rm 51000 which you think is over priced???a 1.6 car at rm 55000 or 1.3 compact car with rm 51000 price tag??and the reason the price is hiked so much because during myvi’s launch there was no competition from proton yet..so the profit margin will surely higher and perodua can easily make money unlike proton…same goes to perodua Viva it is over price too because its not the latest generation of chassis from daihatsu!!just because it has dvvt doesnt mean its modern…if you test drive a viva and savvy then you surely know the difference…and then u will think which make has the value for money…
proton has quality issue..i do agree and they need to improve..but they need support from malaysians…support means u dont have to buy a proton but dont simply create rumours and stories which can tarnish proton’s name..imagine some from china who wants to buy a proton gen2…and when he type proton gen2 on the search tab and came across paultan.org and when he read your comment..he will surely not buy the car..
proton has low quality and long product cycle…they should improve their quality and come up with more models…besides that i dont think they are going on the wrong track..the G should help proton but the level of help should reduce and time goes by and proton can sustain by itself…till then i dont think it a mistake to protect our national car manufacturer because many country does the same!!!
@prem3377
To get an idea of what JC means by a car with soul, you might want to check out his book called “I Know You Got Soul”. The book contains nt oni cars, bt machines in general, that he believes to be built with “soul, passion, and flair”.
Proton is Proton. Put things in perspective, for once. It is the smallest fish in the water infested by sharks that are Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, VW etc etc. It’s R&D is armed by only about 400+ people, engineers + support staffs. Compare that to 5000-8000 employees of some of the Tier 1 vendors that supplies to the automotive giants. And that’s just the technical departments, not including the whole company.
I speculate that the GX (Waja) platform cost Proton about RM1 billion to develop (even that had substantial reverse engineering from Mitsu’s charisma). Spinoff models like Gen2 and the Persona much lower than that, the Edge reported the Persona cost about RM95 million to develop. And all u think it was a simple case of putting a butt into the Gen2. It’s not that simple, people. Back to the cost issue, RM95 million does not buy you anything in the worlds of Honda, Toyota and VW for example. Their engineers make about on average USD50k/year (fresh). Proton’s make about RM30k, maybe less. By industry standards, Proton is working miracles, considering what the work with.
If the OEM that is Proton is diminutive by auto industry standards, imagine the local vendors that supply Proton. They are nothing compared to the giants that are Delphi, Johnson Controls, TRW, Lucas, RobertBosch, Magna, etc etc etc. These bloody companies are larger than Proton.
So these are some of the constraints that Proton is bounded with. Others, probably more significant are things like national policies, political interventions, banks etc etc. Geographically, Proton isn’t located in the best place to practice automotive engineering. Technical assistance often came from Europe or US (and Korea for Savvy). Proving grounds are in UK or Idiada Spain because its simply not viable to build one. Complex manufacturing or R&D machineries similarly came from the western world. Sheet metal for the car has to be imported. So is the bloody sand that is used to cast the Campro engine blocks. The list goes on and on.
Compared to all things Malaysian, our roads, our crumbling public buildings, our Government agencies counter service, the football team, the local movies, the way our police works, the way Sammy Velu runs his ministry, the childish way by which our politicians bicker, the cleanliness of public places, the building codes, our internet connection, etc etc I think Proton is doing something right. Not all is lost. Afterall to be consistently compared to the Hondas and Toyotas (which GM, the biggest automaker in the world, is also struggling against) is in a way a compliment to Proton. Lets hope that it can only be better from now on.
ezralimm, u can come to me to check for my proton service record book. straight 3 years i went to prai proton service center. after 3 years, engine leak proton service center change my father RM1k for overhall, change piston ring + piston bearing. that is the first time, my father felt expensive, then go to my friend work shop which come back from Singapore after getting his mechanic cert from an technical school. let him service full time for nearly 7 years no big problem, thx to him knowledge of Mitsubishi genuine parts. But after 7 years, engine start to eat water so casket started to rust so overhall again (this time using metal casket, cost only less RM500 do all).. So total is 2 times.. My father just drive around town area, so the mileage is just below 150,000 km timing belt only change once. Also using original Mitsubishi timing belt from japan. You already say u own a perdana, so u already confess u have a better income family. U own Perdana, not wira or saga. Let me guess, using SEI engine? 4g63? or V6? What i encounter is that the SEI 4g63 model has less problem compare to the V6 model.. Funny..
anyway do u read this?
How the losing proton dealers get money from?
http://paultan.org/archives/2007/05/17/proton-dealers-snub-rm150000-vss-offer/
here another way the G give money to “invest” in proton using EPF ( Employees Provident Fund ) our working money..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_%28company%29
And anywayz if u think ur automobile knowledge is so good? Why not come to penang here and show ur technical knowledge? Can u personally overhall an engine before? Do u know how to change the gearbox ratio? Or you just simple put money for your mechanic and let them do for u?
A person who always made his hand dirty fixing his own car with a help from friend know what parts are good and bad after tested it. I can also tell u the difference of the engines part used in Wira 1.3L – 1.8L, Saga magma and cyclone. After all, i even have a cert in mechanical automobile.. LOL! (but sad, no money to open shop have to work with others..)
Prem3377, alfa cars are sensitive cars. If u dont know how to take care or drive them u will just destroy them. A lot of mechanic in Malaysia don’t really learn about alfa cars that why a lot of them dont know how to fix one. Just like peugeot, renault and citroen. When people dont know how to fix the car and low in demand sure cheap in secondhand price.. if u say alfa romeo old car can caught fire, i saw before wira, iswara and saga also caught fire mostly is caburated car.. I dint say alfa is the best car izzit it? Anywayz my mechanic friend LAN return from UK with a cert in fixing and diagnosis specially in boxter type car. He seen more alfa, porsche, subaru, VW, saab and even ferrari using boxter type engine.. In prai also got 1 shop specialize in Selespeed product, i think near jalan raja uda. His owner also own a old 2-door alfa romeo, forget what model. Still running happily so many years..
What i know is that the Proton need to improve his quality. Some parts like power windown change to metal should be done earlier. Now the Waja door handle is really annoying, still using plastic. Gen.2 i already seen casket leak a lot already. Mainly drivers rev their car high most of the time (Campro power band is high), causing the engine to heat up fast and casket leak.. Even encounter a Gen.2 user timing belt broke off just 75,000km (2 years in using).. Proton service center no warranty him the engine damage, but only the timing belt!?! Well.. kena few thousand to fix the car.. the owner after that incident, came to my friends mechanic shop to service his car from that moment.. Campro engine need to get VIM+CPS to sell, if they cant implement this fast.. I think later sure a lot of complain, Gen.2 user already complain high FC in auto.. Even u fix the TCU, the weight, the tyre used will also effect the FC. I think they should put down the rim size from 15′ to 14′ inch for better FC, and also get the VIM in the engine to help get better torque..
LittleFire85,
i really dont get your point at all…for your info i am an engineer and been repairing car engine since i was young…remember when u say this..
Prem3377, alfa cars are sensitive cars. If u dont know how to take care or drive them u will just destroy them. A lot of mechanic in Malaysia don’t really learn about alfa cars that why a lot of them dont know how to fix one. Just like peugeot, renault and citroen.
why dont you categorise proton as a sensitive car then???and blame bad driving and bad mechanics as a reason for engine failure such as your dads car??just because your dad has a bad experience in proton wira doesnt mean everyone else does!!my mom is been using her wira since 1996 and till today she dont have any major problem!!touch wood for that!! and my aunty who bought the car the same time but few months later dont have much problem too..futhermore my mum never service her car regularly and she shared her car with my brother for a few years..clocked 234412 kilometers(just checked)!!the altenator,starter motor and radiator and hoses has been the only major repair!!since u said the driver should know how to drive..and should drive carefully same goes to proton cars!!they are not meant for race or built like a tank…belt snapping in campro at 75000 kilometers maybe is a one off case..but its not believeable story though but gasket leakage and all is really not trustable stories and maybe some draw conclusion because gen2 is a high revvy engine but the max torque is achieved at a safe rpm..which is 4000 so if you continue revving up to 6000 and beyond then you are the one to blame for gasket leakage!!and FC in auto is always higher than manual transmission so if the person complain then i dont think he knows anything about cars particularly FC.and may i know which car/make did he compared the FC with??
remember when u say this…
He seen more alfa, porsche, subaru, VW, saab and even ferrari using boxter type engine.. In prai also got 1 shop specialize in Selespeed product, i think near jalan raja uda. His owner also own a old 2-door alfa romeo, forget what model. Still running happily so many years..
i have seen the very first batch of proton saga with single side mirror still running and some nearly 18 to 20 years!!so proton is still reliable as long as u maintain it well…same goes to any car!!proton is not built to last forever and u cant expect it to do so!!
just because one guy has a problem with his campro engine doesnt mean all campro engine has problem…nearly 80000plus campro engine is running now…some in other countries too..if 1/4 of it has problem then u can draw a conclusion that campro engine has a problem..but just with one or two cars u cant really draw a conclusion the engine is bad!!it is powerful and soon will be one of the most powerful engine in its class…
tanasi,
i totally agree with you and whatever you said is very true..
#
ezralimm said,
August 5, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
ezralimm, can u tell me where these money come from to help those rugi dealers?
http://paultan.org/archives/2007/05/17/proton-dealers-snub-rm150000-vss-offer/
__________________________________________
The ninth malaysia plan. Yes, the govt actually budgets for the development of the local automotive industry. The RM500m allocated is reasonable for a country with a ~RM1,000,000,000,000 GDP (Purchasing Power Parity adjusted value).
It’s really nothing on a national level. Other countries do the same thing too. I just learnt, from a rural industries visit, that even Australia gives grants to develop underperforming sectors of the economy.
———————————————————
Well, i dont seem to see any of these money are putting in the improvement of local automotive industry? And i think these money only help those dying dealers who cried to papa for more $$$. If they say put it in R&D, better QC then i say got improvement! Why not put the money on charity more better, help the poors or reduce plus tolls.. Say so rich, still a lot of people still poor like hell in Kampung. Mungkin ada orang yang “kacang lupakan kulit” di sini..
And from ur words seem that proton is still a underperforming sectors of the economy? Wow, u seem more bash then all of us.. Good u admit it urself. LoL…
Anywayz i just found out that Gen.2 design original is from old hatchback Renault Megane.. dont know right or wrong? So not original 100% design from us.. Even campro block also use Renault..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Renault_megane.jpg
(try see the sideline of the car, almost the same..The Mégane is used by Proton to design the Proton Gen-2, where both car’s shape are identical and the Campro is using the engine block from Renault.)
Anyway i am not here totally bashing proton cars, just i want to see his quality improve and also new technology enchantment. If the new car come wif VIM, i still can accept to help improve torque. Who don’t want proton to be better? And how much i wish that proton can give us more wif less problem!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_M%C3%A9gane
The link is here.. Renault megane 1 (1995-2002), So does this make Proton really designing 100% original car?
Anywayz prem3377, Gen.2 also kena burn just 4-days using. I got the link, but somehow paul censored it.
If u want find out more go to uncyclopedia.org, type proton cars and search for Gen.2. There got a lot of news..
I think it’s ok to change the name instead of Gen 2. I mean, it’s CHEAP but it’s marketing. So if there is idiot out there who is buying the trick, then I think it’s OK… They used to cut the back and legoed it into a pick-up truck (i really have no idea what they call it) called Proton Arena- CHEAP stances but someone is buying, that I think it’s OK…
And by this, I totally disagree with LittleFire85. Bro, they do have R&D department man…if not how come they come out with all the wonderful “LEGOED” product with different of names. Discounting those vans, MPV and SUV they have more names than those HONDAs. This is where all the our money went dude-R&D. Seriously LilFire bro, you need to give them a break. Without the money to do R&D, Car Legoing is quantum physics to these folks. Now that’s something to be proud of!
And oh, I took a peek today at the car and they manage to take out that stupid hooded digital clock. And oh,…Paul banned penYu?
Can a Malaysian design and built cars (not rebadge) without any help from the government ? Very dificult but not impossible..in the 70’s and earlier nobody thought that Malaysia can built cars and now are talking about the new Persona,its an improvement isnt it? And some even have an A to Z knowledge about how an automotive industry should be done,thats an improvement too!I think all the Proton supporters,critics and even bashers are equally important for proton to make better cars in future!
ROTFLMAOWOOT.
LittleFire85 actually uses UNcyclopedia as a source of information.
#######
Well, i dont seem to see any of these money are putting in the improvement of local automotive industry? And i think these money only help those dying dealers who cried to papa for more $$$. If they say put it in R&D, better QC then i say got improvement! Why not put the money on charity more better, help the poors or reduce plus tolls.. Say so rich, still a lot of people still poor like hell in Kampung. Mungkin ada orang yang “kacang lupakan kulit†di sini..
________________________________________-
firstly, only 36 dealers accepted the offer. That’s 5.4m spent out of 500m. Or 1.08% of the 500m allocated. I dont see what you’re trying to say.
##########
And from ur words seem that proton is still a underperforming sectors of the economy? Wow, u seem more bash then all of us.. Good u admit it urself. LoL…
________________________________________________
It’s fact. It’s not bashing. Bashing is when you make wide sweeping generalizations based on anecdotal evidence and ‘coffeeshop talk’ with a lack of perspective on the big picture.
########
Anywayz i just found out that Gen.2 design original is from old hatchback Renault Megane.. dont know right or wrong? So not original 100% design from us.. Even campro block also use Renault..
_____________________________________
The current Megene is so very similar to the NIssan Tiida… i dont hear anyone complaining. Besides, the gen2 has a different shape and side profile and rear profile from the ’99 Megene anyway.
Proton Gen2.1
i think with persona or other name, the in or ext view of this model didn’t has differ to the current gen-2, so the selling will be more to the 2k-2.5k monthly sell as mentioned by analysts from RHB…
LittleFire85 said,
August 6, 2007 @ 2:18 am
Anywayz i just found out that Gen.2 design original is from old hatchback Renault Megane.. dont know right or wrong? So not original 100% design from us.. Even campro block also use Renault..
to LittleFire85,
Kid, get your facts straight first.
The Gen2 design is all new, even though the chassis is similar to the waja/lancer CK. And the campro is NOT renault. if renault you cant use proton or mitsubishi oil filter in the campro. the campro is designed around the constraints of existing megavalve engine manufacturing machines that proton have, so the block dimensions are the same as the mitsubishi 4g15/13 engines.
To others, if you dont know/not sure just SHUT UP and keep the comments to yourself.
BTW im not working/has worked with proton, just a normal enthusiast who really knows his stuff…
Hmmm Proton Persona sounds nice to me..
persona. is a great name.
stop that savvy, gen2 name. i think gen2 is a hideous name. its scary when you can expect further down the road a car will be called gen3or genXcop for that matter. ( proton, dont bagi nama gen2 if you dont have plans to call a future car gen3 or gen4 ) nway, have i mention persona is a great name?
And anywayz if u think ur automobile knowledge is so good? Why not come to penang here and show ur technical knowledge? Can u personally overhall an engine before? Do u know how to change the gearbox ratio? Or you just simple put money for your mechanic and let them do for u?
______________________________________________________
Nope. Never claimed to have good automobile knowledge. Just putting things into perspective and avoiding misconceptions. I’ve already set it straight with some critics regarding the pricing of the car. I dont make broad sweeping statements without putting things into perspective.
After all, i even have a cert in mechanical automobile..
___________________________________________________
Well, for a person as experienced as you are, I dont see how you could make statements like “I think put 200% tax on foreign cars compare to force them to put 200% effort.. If they really put their effort in, why still hold the NAP/AP issues”. A Civic costs only about 70% more expensive with NAP. Yes, some cars get 200% tax… but those cars are not everyday cars for your average family. It’s misleading information. A person reading it may get the impression that a Civic should cost about RM55k. Which is clearly wrong…but forms the basis of argument by most bashers. They then go around saying that proton is selling expensive cars. It’s just not true. It’s a budget brand no matter how you look at it.
Bottom line: I acknowledge that Proton will probably have more QC issues as their cars are cheap. Similar class imports will cost about 30% more even without GovtProtection/NAP/tariffs.
RM50k. 1200kg sedan. Good value for money… It’s what the average malaysian family needs. That’s a good thing.
RE: LittleFire85’s dad’s wira.
Ooh. You must be a bit unlucky then. Why dont you start bashing mitsubishi engines? They are so unreliable even after 150000km you’ve had two overhauls. I hope you realize it’s wrong to make generalizations based on one or two cases (or word of mouth coffeeshop talk).
Im not a proton fan. Im just putting things into perspective. Dispelling coffeeshop talk and feel good misleading rhetoric.
Back to the topic, i feel persona is a more international name than wira or even gen2. Personally, i really dont like the Gen2 name. It’s just cheesy. Jeremy Clarkson in his usual flair said “Gen2 sounds like the name of a prostitute…and cam(era)Pro could be the name of her daughter”.
its way better to comment the car after the launch…whats the use of commenting now when you can comment later…..
Persona is a nice name. Campro is also a nice name for an engine, at least we have a name – give a personality to it. Not E48 or V6 turbo or what ever. First generation proton had a MAGMA engine then Megavalve, no one criticized that.
If the name doesn’t work we can always change it.
I’d take whatever JC says with a pinch of salt. Driving skills wise — i know a lot of guys who drove much smoother than he does. Tiff Needle is better IMHO. Even the girl from TopGear, whatshername. Engineers spent so much time in making a car corner properly, ensuring the roll behaviour matches its yawing moment, that the weight transfer both longitudinal and lateral are harmonious, steering effort build up and response matches nicely and linearly, etc etc. And all he does is try to slide the car sideways. All the refinement work is never meant for that. Unless if you’re talking a bout a proper drift car.
tanasi said,
August 6, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
I’d take whatever JC says with a pinch of salt. Driving skills wise — i know a lot of guys who drove much smoother than he does. Tiff Needle is better IMHO. Even the girl from TopGear, whatshername. Engineers spent so much time in making a car corner properly, ensuring the roll behaviour matches its yawing moment, that the weight transfer both longitudinal and lateral are harmonious, steering effort build up and response matches nicely and linearly, etc etc. And all he does is try to slide the car sideways. All the refinement work is never meant for that. Unless if you’re talking a bout a proper drift car
_________________________________________________________________________
Sorry, out if topic. Agree with u, tanasi. I often see Jeremy Clarkson trying to put almost all of the cars sideways, during his car reviews. Normal everyday cars are not meant to do that. I don’t have Cable TV, so i watched almost all old Top Gear episodes on NTV7. On Top Gear this past Sunday, he managed to make a Mazda6 MPS go sideways (an calling it a good car), and commented that the Vauxhall Vectra has loads if understeer – Well, i think a normal front wheel drive car logically should have understeer as to allow everyday drivers to easily manouver it. Hmm…. i much prefer Richard Hammond or James May to do car reviewing rather than JC.
Anyway, Persona IS A MUCH BETTER name than Gen2.
I think JC just wants attention..
ezralimm, you can argue Proton can sell Persona at RM 45K to RM 55K is reasonable until the cow come home. But definitely your argument is farsical as far as you said Corrolla, Civic, Sentra, Lancer or the like can’t sell below RM 60K in any part of the world! Very funny and as Australia can’t sell these Japs cars below RM 60K doesn’t mean other part of the world can’t do it.
To all the great “debaters” up there, let the car come out first then have real “no hold bar” or “carmania” argument! Very hoooooooooooooooootttt!!!!!
Hello all,
Yestername..Gen-2..
Incoming name..Gen-Set.
98% accurate!
ezralimm,
Does age really important to be counted? just curious only. I do agree that around rm50k is reasonable to own for a sedan class-c car in malaysia bcos is the cheapest since we have not much choice. but a honda civic 1.6 might be able to sell below rm60k if without nap if there is. chevrolet optra 1.6 also sold below rm60k eventhough was ex-stock. afterall, different countries will have different policies, different cost of living and different lifestyles. it’s not fair to put into comparisons. by the way, i hv mentioned earlier, can’t categorize on weight as car manufacturers count on class/segment. is megane, not megene..haha.
All cars, are required to be maintained even the paint works. there’s lifespan for the cars as well as the parts. we can find out from every car manufacturers what’s the lifespan of a car been designed for. probably 10 years only. antirust warranty 10 years, so what does it tell? continental cars are good but not much specialist in malaysia to maintain it, as compared to japanese or korean as they are more familiar with. It won’t be surprised that lots of complaints of proton cars, but it should have been since they hv the most quantity of cars in malaysia at the moment, eventhough Perodua is picking up. but we can’t deny it that proton have lots quality issues affected our daily usage. and this daily usage might affected us such as lost of income-daily, business, or may be life, etc unnecessary. lets think about it again, what would u choice?
Bigfish, this is a topic i’ve debated for quite some time. I happen to stay in the Halls of Residence, where there are many international students. Yes, i have inquired about the prices of cars in other countries. Including Japan. The prices my friends claim are not too far off from the Langkawi/Australian prices.
I still say you will not find a RM55k OTR Civic anywhere.
You MAY find a RM55k non-OTR Civic.
But then again, the gen2 is only RM36k non-OTR.
Always note that internet prices do not reflect actual OTR cost. non-OTR and OTR prices can vary by a large margin.
For more information, go to Lowyat.net forums and look at the Real World Issues subforum. This topic (price of proton cars) has been debated at length before. Also look at the gen2 thread in TheFastAndTheFurious subforum.
Persona yang mempersonakan. A nice name and it is a malay word. Bravo Proton.
Persona is a Malay and English word and both have a different meaning..both are okay names
ezralimm said,
August 6, 2007 @ 6:41 am
#######
Well, i dont seem to see any of these money are putting in the improvement of local automotive industry? And i think these money only help those dying dealers who cried to papa for more $$$. If they say put it in R&D, better QC then i say got improvement! Why not put the money on charity more better, help the poors or reduce plus tolls.. Say so rich, still a lot of people still poor like hell in Kampung. Mungkin ada orang yang “kacang lupakan kulit†di sini..
________________________________________-
firstly, only 36 dealers accepted the offer. That’s 5.4m spent out of 500m. Or 1.08% of the 500m allocated. I dont see what you’re trying to say.
———————————-
hi ezralimm…
yes, only 36% accepted the offer… did u wonder what happened to the rest?
the 64% rejected the offer IS NOT because they feel its too much… they felt it was too little in comparison to what they deserved…!!!
well, if i am to open a coffeeshop business and earn RM100k per month, i dont complain… when the customers go away to Coffee Bean and i lost RM5k every month and have to close shop, i cant complain either…
well these Potong dealership is a business… so if these poor dealers are suffering losses, just close shop… why must they be compensated? its purely business, my friend… so do u know what happened to the 64% dealers eventually? we can begin to imagine…
we bashers are just wondering why in the 21st century we are still running ur so-called corporate entity with political influences and relationships…?
u still get ur wajunk with plastic power window components becoz these vendors have ‘special’ agreement with the ur so-called corporate entity… QC dept rejects the parts but it is still installed to the cars becoz of pressure from mgmt… so its not the best vendors with best quality wins but its up to the best vendor with best public relations wins… u know wat is PR rite?
we all know i am talking on baseless comments but have u really asked urself some of these questions? if everyone knows wajunk power windows plastic cracked under the hot sun, wouldnt it be easy to put a piece of metal instead to replace it? so whats stopping ur so-called corporate entity to go ahead with the metal replacement?
BUT… i am proud of Proton as well… it produced crap cars but its not easy to produce any car with the kind of budget it has… but its a business world out there… so let the businessman run the business… perfect example is AirAsia… tats what i called a business-minded business…
aaa..Air Asia already built aeroplanes already? wow I didn’t know…
hi ezralimm,
take a look at the customs declaration price for the imported cars…
all the sub-RM100k imported cars sold in Msia has less than RM35k value declared with the customs… which means the car is produced at a cost less than RM35k at the manufacturing country…
lets say for example…
we produce RM35k gendua, and sell at RM55k…
we import RM35k japan brand, and sell at RM90k…
do u think the japan brand car is better or gendua is better?
but yet, we need to sell the gendua, so we have to price it like this… becoz if both cars are priced at RM55k, nobody will buy gendua… so u know why we need to jack up the price of the japan brand?
a Honda civic may not be sold at RM55k OTR… but a vios can be sold at RM55k OTR at other countries… would u like to buy a vios at RM55k?
but the fact is vios is RM75k on average and our average salary is still below RM3k… for a car such as vios, we need to pay 25 months of our salary to buy it… its almost a world record case of biggest ratio of car price vs salary…
a guy working part time in UK could earn 2k pound monthly and Toyota Yaris is 9k pound…its less than 5 months salary for him…
so if a vios is RM55k, we wouldnt need to work so hard for it rite?
so thats why bashers here blame ur so-called corporate entity of depriving them better cars… u are saying Potong cars more affordable but its becoz the Potong who made other cars look ‘unaffordable’…
now we have a finance expert! good for Malaysians…
RE: Purchasing power and affordability of cars.
I dont think you could compare the purchasing power of citizens in a first world country with the purchasing power of citizens in a developing country.
Bottom line: Their PPP is three to four times that of malaysians. Our country simply cant compare. Unskilled labour pays RM45-50 an hour.
RE: Civic may not be RM55k but a Vios will be.
True. But let’s not compare the vios with the civic shall we? The Corolla competes with the civic…and will also be RM70k+ without NAP. The Vios competes with the City/FitAria (based on the Jazz platform, a budget town car). A fairer comparison will be between the Vios and the upcoming proton based on the Savvy platform.
eg:
1000kg: City ~ Vios ~ Tiida ~ Polo ~ Upcoming 5dr proton based on Savvy platform.
~1200kg: Civic ~ Corolla ~ Gen2(Persona?) ~ Golf
RE: “u are saying Potong cars more affordable but its becoz the Potong who made other cars look ‘unaffordable’…”
No, Im saying they are affordable even if NAP didnt exist – as proton cars of similar class/type will still be cheaper than comparable imports. Compare like with like. Dont go around comparing the price of a ~1000kg sedan with a ~1200kg sedan. Sure, without NAP, a Jap ~1000kg sedan will be about the same price as a ~1200kg proton.
so ezralimm…
u are one of the only guy i met that would like to use RM55k to sit in a Gendua… my other frens and me would prefer the vios for the same price… so we would actually prefer a 1000kg japan brand car against a Gendua 1200kg car…
it seems like a mismatch for u… but for poor guys like me, i would prefer the 1000kg car with good quality and low FC… becoz good quality and low FC makes the car lasts longer, less maintenance problems and low fuel costs…
sorry tat the Gendua 1200kg car doesnt even come close to the value of the car in the 1000kg jap brand car… coz we cant afford the 1.6L FC and troublesome visits to the SC…
maybe me and most of the ppl i knew are not patriotic enough… but i am sure u can continue to buy ur choice of vehicle from Proton’s range becoz its value for money for u, but for us we think that RM55k can be used to buy a better value for our money…
and ezralimm…
you can go find out how much developing countries like Thailand and Indonesia have for their price of cars… their cars are still expensive… but its still way way cheaper compared with us…
and ezralimm…
find out how much Proton sells in Australia and UK too… after the currency conversion, the Proton cars is still cheaper than or same with in our own country and with extra safety features… so where does the export cost comes in? where does the salesman commission in UK, Australia come in? their salary is higher than us… operating costs of sales center in 1st world country is more as well…
that means their car prices can be lowered in bolehland… but they still priced it that high to rip us off… so that profit margin can be squeezed from us…
ezralimm,
I still say you will not find a RM55k OTR Civic anywhere.
———————-
Click on below: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/toyota/#corolla
The OTR price for Toyota Corrola in UAE is start from USD 12,600 to USD 17,800 (Approx. RM 44,100 to RM 62,300).
Camry, ahem start from RM 67,550 (USD 19,300).
Log on below: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/honda/
Honda Civic from USD 14,670 to USD 18,200 (RM 51,345 to RM 63,700).
For Honda Accord, the prices start from RM 69,300 (USD 19,800).
If you still argue it is “internet price” but not OTR price, then can contact drive arabia.com!
http://www.drivearabia.com/email.html
You like to give “Kangaroo perspective” as Aus cars prices are the lowest in the world!
Thailand price ranges is as per your argument around RM 70,000 for civic simply because their pricing system is OTR + Roadtax (One off basis, unlike M’sia is annually)
So, the Persona price is neither the lowest nor “reasonable” but “look-reasonable” since other makes including MyVi and Viva are overprice! Why you still can’t accept the fact that our car prices is overprice, be it National or imported.
Too much argument on the price. But at this price for Persona, any significant takers?
ezraliim, log on below to find out the truth: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/honda/
Honda Civic start from RM 14,670 (RM 51,345)!
Shall be read as Honda Civic start from USD 14,670 (RM 51,345) in UAE!
frens
dun fight2 la..
some of u guys may be an engineer,
some maybe just a fresh college leaver,
some of them have a bad experience
but most of you guys, are not nice to each other..
aiyohh..
kita mau kawan2, bukan cari lawan..
The national car project has had many benefits, but at what cost?
It has spawned a few globally uncompetitive Tier 1 suppliers, a small globally uncompetitive engineering company, and it has made it possible for Malaysia to chalk up a consistent trade surplus beginning around 1999.
In return for that, Malaysia became the most crudely motorized nation for its per capita GDP level, which directly resulted in many lost productivity hours spent in workshops and roadsides and a disproportionately high road fatality and injury rate. Where 6 airbags are standard in Europe and elsewhere, 2 airbags are all imported cars come with in Malaysia as a direct result of Proton lowering the bar. Proton cars come, not just with a paltry 2 airbags, but also a passenger cell that is nowhere as rigid as its global competitors.
But the national car project’s greatest crime is how it tries to defy, with the help of the government backed by the money in Malaysians’ pockets, one of the fundamental concepts of economics — that of comparative advantage. We utterly lack comparative advantage in the manufacture of cars, because the single most important ingredient in making great cars is engineering sophistication across all manufacturing industries, even those that appear unconnected to carmaking. Engineering sophistication comes from sophisticated engineers, a caste of people non-existent in Malaysia.
The point is, us competing against Japan and Germany in carmaking is like us competing against New Zealand in producing mutton or the US in producing cotton and software. Or looked at the other way, it’s like Germany competing against us in producing palm oil. It’ll never work.
BigFish & dcwhz83,
actually whats your point??
take a look at the customs declaration price for the imported cars…
all the sub-RM100k imported cars sold in Msia has less than RM35k value declared with the customs… which means the car is produced at a cost less than RM35k at the manufacturing country…
__________________________________________________
they customs price which joe ooi always talks about is the value of cars the distributor here claim..which is underpriced to fool the G so that they dont have to pay high taxer like how the AP holder which sells cars way much cheaper than original distributor…iand what do you expect??the G to sell car without any tax at all??its impossible…
the price which BigFish found out from the link is from middle east where there is almost no tax and where the cars will be dumped on da desset after they get bored with it…i was in dubai and even small kids drives a BMW 5 series with swing doors…theie G just survive by selling petroleum and they have plenty unlike us…we have to pay tax no matter what!!
i do agree in our country we do have low income…but checkout fuel price in the US and UK..in US you almost have to pay 30% income tax so when you calculate..our cost of living is good for a developing country but its rising so the G is the one we have to blame!!
proton is not producing 5 million car per year and there is a reason for it…so the price cannot be as low as the japanese..or american..why??a simple example can tell you this…
population of japan is 130 million people..and its a developed country where their technology and education level is much higher than us…if 10 % of their population buy their own make…its already 6.5 million cars…and the japanese G does protect their own makes and foreign manufacturer will hard time getting a chance to sell car there due to japan’s nap and etc…and many have to pay high tax to sell their after certain years of usage unlike malaysians…so obvious japanese can sell their car at lower price…malaysian population is just mere 23 million and we are a developing country where technology is much more expensive and education level is way much lower…so we need help from foreigner from developed country to help us…and all this come at a cost…and imagine proton sell to 5 % of its population…only 1.15 million cars..so how can we compete with the japanese in bring down the cost??the only thing which comes cheap in our country is the labour cost but then japanese is already buliding cars here..so is it fair to compare the price??
how many of your 12 year old kid who can build a radio by their own???japanese kids can and when they are 16 they build robots..and malaysian kids???its hard to compare..but we should be proud that there is people in australia and UK who buys a proton..its an achievement!!
and please dont be fool by foreign car manufacturers…just because they have DVVT people here buy myvi like fresh baked cake…but many dont realize that a japanese is benefiting from it!!dont u think myvi is overprice at rm 51000??so if you claim that japanese cars can be cheap without tax and all why is the myvi selling at such a high price when basically its a japanese car protected by the G..do u have an explaination for it???you surely cant…
come on think logically then compare prices man
you have to consider many things before you compare prices…not just look at a chart or list then compare….
when you compare a gen2 and toyota vios..its fine…almost same class even if they are not but it not a right comparison at all!!
its like your asking why BMW 330i which has 6 cylinders…3.0 cc selling at 39000 US dollars(rm 140400) and honda accord 3.0 with same 3.0 cc 6 cylinder engine selling at US 25000(rm90000) when both cars offer 8 airbags,abs,ebd,vtec(for honda),vanos(for bmw)vsc,and etc..and even both offer leather seats and 17 inch alloy rims….
why is the bmw much more expensive compared to the japanese???can anyone explain why??as do you think its a fair comparison first of all???if yes…then what both of you feel about proton is true…if not then please be fair when you are comparing…we are a small country where everything that is needed to develop a car always expensive and not easily avaible in malaysia..
for example..when my company needed a CNC machines..we had to buy it from germany and its not cheap..after going thru tax and shipment cost it came about 4 million riggit…we needed all this modern machine to save time…but even when production rate increase..but we had to sell our product at higher price due to the 4 million riggit investment we made…and we will have to wait 3 years just get back our investment and within another 3 years the machines will be outdated and need to be replaced…and product price will have to increase again…but imagine if a German company who face the similar situation??they just have to pay half of what we payed and they will get back the investment within half the period we targeted..so production cost can be lower and cheaper parts can be produced..but here we cant…we are not capable of producing over own machines…so be happy and proud we manage to produce our own car and few million people are driving it…
do bash blindly or claim they are over priced…its not easy as u think…so please do simply come up with something that is not logical….
when you ask why proton is cheaper in uk and aus…think again…check the customs list you mentioned….can you get a camry at rm 40000 in japan???or a alfa at rm34000 in italy??its impossible…so dont trust the price guys and assume proton is over priced!!!!
correction..suppose to be 5 % of japan’s population
Prem3377, UAE car pricing is nothing to do with oil revenue, if what you said is true, why the food overthere (according to my friend) is easily 5 time higher than Malaysia (both products mainly import)?
Your argument at least imply that Proton is economically not feasible, Why China car like Chery (also sell around 300K unit only in 2006) able to sell even lower than Korean makes in China (Chery QQ start from RM 9K++)?
If population (local market) is the constraint to achieve volume, then Proton shall emulate Volvo (from Sweden with population of 9 million) by let it taken over by foreigner to be competitve.
Anyway, too much argument about pricing!!!!!! Let the car launch and see what is the public respond! Likely Proton unable to create “urgency to buy” with waiting list of few months just like MyVi.
ezralimm and Prem3377,
Log on link below: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/proton/
Proton Gen-2 selling from USD 8,700 (RM 30,450) to USD 9,500 (USD 33,250).
So your argument that Gen-2 cost is RM 36,000 and selling price from RM 45,000 to RM 55,000 is reasonable can be sum up as follows: –
1. Proton export to UAE is a losing biz endeavor since it selling price
ezralimm and Prem3377,
Cont’ed
1. Proton export to UAE is a losing biz endeavor since it selling price
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r76/hazri03/gen3.jpg
another spyshot.. persona at petronas station..
perhaps some one has already put the picture link before at paultan, but i’m too lazy to scroll up to recheck….
ezralimm said,
August 6, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
eg:
1000kg: City ~ Vios ~ Tiida ~ Polo ~ Upcoming 5dr proton based on Savvy platform.
~1200kg: Civic ~ Corolla ~ Gen2(Persona?) ~ Golf
==already mentioned u just can’t compared the same class/segment car by weight. is very misleading. yet u mentioned to others to avoid using case examples and base generalization on them. but then u r doing so. how can u expect others not to do so?
vw Polo weight almost 1200kg whereas vw Golf weight almost 1400kg. where should it be? vw polo weight is around corolla and vw golf weight is around honda accord weight, how?
Hi,
Few key point+a little fact+some conclussion is ok.
But if u drag ur bla-bla-bla..go and publish ur own papioke-brain-like-clever-journal elsewhere not here.OK kah Paul?
(but very rarely i kinda like Anon comments on 7th [email protected]…cannot sleep ah?)bed time but mouth still want talk talk.
Sorry and no hard feeling,for all te genius.
Prem3377 said,
August 7, 2007 @ 1:56 am
and please dont be fool by foreign car manufacturers…just because they have DVVT people here buy myvi like fresh baked cake…but many dont realize that a japanese is benefiting from it!!dont u think myvi is overprice at rm 51000??so if you claim that japanese cars can be cheap without tax and all why is the myvi selling at such a high price when basically its a japanese car protected by the G..do u have an explaination for it???you surely cant…
==hmm….rm51,000 is overpriced? maybe yes. let put aside the dvvt engine, but then what can we hv, which come with ABS, EBD, SRS Airbag (Two) with that car size in malaysia at the price of rm50000? This new sedan is not out yet. The car prices of malaysia is controlled by our government, yet it is long story to discuss and elaborate.
its like your asking why BMW 330i which has 6 cylinders…3.0 cc selling at 39000 US dollars(rm 140400) and honda accord 3.0 with same 3.0 cc 6 cylinder engine selling at US 25000(rm90000) when both cars offer 8 airbags,abs,ebd,vtec(for honda),vanos(for bmw)vsc,and etc..and even both offer leather seats and 17 inch alloy rims….
==one of the reasons, bmw is FR and honda is FF. different manufacturing cost. hahaha.
for example..when my company needed a CNC machines..we had to buy it from germany and its not cheap..after going thru tax and shipment cost it came about 4 million riggit…we needed all this modern machine to save time…but even when production rate increase..but we had to sell our product at higher price due to the 4 million riggit investment we made…
==shipment cost do agree hv to be paid, but tax? machineries is tax exempted if ur companies declared it properly, by accounts department mostly. using these machineries not just saving times but also lower running cost in the long run. it is manufacturing management, risk management. hahaha…proton is trying to employ risk management staff, came out in jobs. maybe hv something to do with the production of this new sedan. persona?
hurmmmmm don’t care bout proton new cars. had ultra extremely bad experience with my mom 2002 waja. interior quality sucks. got all d waja problem—-glove box tak ketat, door handle patah(plastik murah), absorber/suspension berbunyi, power windows problem…….kesian tengok my mom bayar instalment mahal2 for a crappy car. just not worth it…….then again, this is Bolehland……..huhuhuhuhu. ermmm anyway, i drive a 1995 iswara aeroback n i treat our road macam litar sepang, drive like alonso with 9 lives…….corrupt rakyat deserve a corrupt govt.
Agree with 2st…I remember my first Saga Auto got stolen,that was many years ago,get my insurance and bought an Iswara..used a few years and trade in with a Satria..sold it again and bought a Neo just recently( i love driving)..I still own a non Proton continental car( good but expensive to maintain but i’ll still keep it)..waiting for the new sedan and decide later…
whatever it is Apathy..drive safely..happy driving…
BigFish,
i dont know how the car priced is so cheap in UAE..there is something fishy and i dont think the price is true over there..and if yes…the story will be something like how our AP holder sells car way much cheaper than main distributor…nissan 350Z from tan chong motors cost rm570000plus…but the same car from our AP holder so called used car company can sell the 2007 model for rm 280000…but really dont how its possible to sell below cost price and shipment plus etc will surely increase the cost…check other more reliable website…because i dont think proton is selling well in UAE..many 20 to 30 unit only per year…so dont you think proton wan to lower the price so much just because 20 to 30 cars??please check other website….
and about chery…come on..you know what kinda manufacturers they are…the cost of developing chery QQ???buy a chevrolet spark…strip the car..get the measurement and dimension…set the body panel on the forging machine…copy the engine design…change the cover head….modify the interior and finaly change the bumpers…maybe rm 80000 to develop one…even the brother’s designers,mechanics and etc can make such a car….so obviously they can survive by selling car at such a rate…like how proton survived and was a profit making company when they were selling rebadge mitsu cars!!now when they develop their own model with R& D cost…what happened??they started losing money…
yah lets stop the argument and lets wait for the car…dont say its over price yet because car is not out yet and we are yet to see,feel and test the car…after that we can judge if its over price or worth the money!!!
==already mentioned u just can’t compared the same class/segment car by weight. is very misleading. yet u mentioned to others to avoid using case examples and base generalization on them. but then u r doing so. how can u expect others not to do so?
Erm, the Golf is 1275kg and the Polo is 1100kg.
To be honest, the Polo is abit overweight for it’s size. It’s about as big as a myvi i’d say..but has a 1.4L powerplant. Are you sure you’re talking about the right car? There is no way the Golf is the same size/class as the Accord. It is more the size of a Gen2, Corolla, Civic…slightly overweight.
I stick by what i said.
~1000kg: City ~ Vios ~ Tiida ~ Polo ~ Upcoming 5dr proton based on Savvy platform.
~1200kg: Civic ~ Corolla ~ Gen2(Persona?) ~ Golf
I had to choose recently between a ~1000kg and a ~1200kg car recently. I went for a ~1000kg car for better fc and cheaper price. IMO, all the ~1000kg cars above are roughly the same size (I test drove 6 different ones before making my choice ;-) ). The ~1200kg cars are considerably bigger. Dont judge by pictures. Go check them out in real life if you dont believe. VW isnt that popular in msia yet, but if you see a Polo on the road, note it’s size. There is no way it is the size of a Civic as you claim.
I don’t have any issue about the name .. but then Pesona is a very popular pregnancy test kit in UK.
I like this name,like some ‘cantik’
just wait n c
i hope this model is a kiler car like ”WIRA” 1993-2000
Good Job PROTON
Guy, is this the new sedan?
checkout : http://www.miricommunity.net/viewtopic.php?t=6717&sid=983b165dd3997bffc7c1b86594859d53
if u cant access it, go to miricommunity.net n search for new gen.2 sedan usiing search function in d forum.
u’re welcomed
|:p
My friend brother own a polo 1.4L, he got 6-speed manual, full leather seat, 4 air bags.. FC even better then his smaller brother waja manual… Well, if u see his exterior seems a bit small, but when sit inside.. Wow, like GTi brother.. more than meets the eye..
Holy shit, is the a thread on the Persona, or the Personasupelleggera?
ezralimm said,
August 7, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
Erm, the Golf is 1275kg and the Polo is 1100kg.
To be honest, the Polo is abit overweight for it’s size. It’s about as big as a myvi i’d say..but has a 1.4L powerplant. Are you sure you’re talking about the right car? There is no way the Golf is the same size/class as the Accord. It is more the size of a Gen2, Corolla, Civic…slightly overweight.
I stick by what i said.
~1000kg: City ~ Vios ~ Tiida ~ Polo ~ Upcoming 5dr proton based on Savvy platform.
~1200kg: Civic ~ Corolla ~ Gen2(Persona?) ~ Golf
I had to choose recently between a ~1000kg and a ~1200kg car recently. I went for a ~1000kg car for better fc and cheaper price. IMO, all the ~1000kg cars above are roughly the same size (I test drove 6 different ones before making my choice ). The ~1200kg cars are considerably bigger. Dont judge by pictures. Go check them out in real life if you dont believe. VW isnt that popular in msia yet, but if you see a Polo on the road, note it’s size. There is no way it is the size of a Civic as you claim.
==i m very sure about the cars. seeing is not enough, feeling it is better by driving it. polo is nice but expensive in malaysia, golf even better. those were questions that i was asking u of those cars, not claiming the civic same to polo. if categorize it in weight, the golf will be the same to accord eventhough different in size/class. what about a golf 2.0 to accord 2.0, then how to categorize of jetta and passat since the weight almost same? what about 320i and 520i then? then how about C200 to 320i or camry? anyway, it is very misleading to categorize car by weight, that i will stressed out.
yes, u can use weight as one of the many elements to the car FC but it is not all.
LittleFire85 said,
August 7, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
My friend brother own a polo 1.4L, he got 6-speed manual, full leather seat, 4 air bags.. FC even better then his smaller brother waja manual… Well, if u see his exterior seems a bit small, but when sit inside.. Wow, like GTi brother.. more than meets the eye..
_____________________________________________________________
mestila….polo 1.4 and waja 1.6..sure FC lower than waja…haha…u suppose to compare waja or savvy bro??
Well, prem3377.. i think u forget that polo is almost the same weight with waja… Engine VW polo is still using last generation golf, not FSI.. his sport rim is 17′.. Anywayz i think he manage to save fuel thx to the 6-speed manual.. Which i think after VW take over proton, then i can see 1…
prem3377, i think u should learn to do the power : weight ratio of the car..
Reading these comments really cheer up my day, littlefire85, u keep saying “my friend’s xxx” which means u din even drive them b4, n for bigfish, the lowest price did u check the spec? its the lowest spec which u cant get in malaysia for the corolla u so happily quoted out, dnt tell me its same spec, check the spec 1st b4 u speak another word about their price are cheaper when u cant even compare apple to apple. and for the custom case, i remember previously i mentioned b4 tat it wasn’t even include any tax, n 10% sales tax have to apply b4 NAP, read the site well b4 say anything! price in the list mentioned very well, CIF mean cost, insurance and freight cost.it means cost, haven’t even include profit for the manufacturer, gov tax, NAP, salesman incentive and many more chunks of profit tat government dont get their hands on. so pls stop using that as ur “benchmark” for reasonable price! im really doubt any one of you even read the whole thing or even the website. and those who talk like experts but actually give misleading info, read wat u quoted, in depth, not just the skin, or else, u better keep your skin!
P.s. my grammar isn’t good, so no need to catch my grammar mistake n mention them to me later ;) thx
and littlefire85, vw not going to take over proton, they just form an alliance with vw 51%, sorry to tell u, ur dream didnt came true, and update urself.
All the previous issue tat ppl have with proton engine, u should get more info from many other places, mitsu engines was known for having problem after 150k km, but tis cnt be generalize to all mitsu engine.
1 more very important thing for littlefire85, develop a gearbox takes a lot of resources which proton dont really have! thats y they still rely on mitsu gb.
for those who keep dreaming budget car with 6 speed gb, just not gona happen soon, n dnt tell me city have 7 speed, its cvt, it have infinite ratio, honda js use it as gimmick to attract people, they can set as much gear ratio as much as the cvt ratio range can give them
for a start, the name gen-2 sucks.
the font that they used for the badge … is even more.
seeing the different fonts used for the badge ‘proton’ and ‘gen-2’ at the rear boot irritate many eyes.
persona is nicer than gen-2 but …. can’t they find any other name that can truly represent itself as “gen-2 sedan” ? like gen-dan or something.. kekeke..
fastcx, can u show me any prove that VW only alliance wit proton? Or VW is going to Indonesia to open factory? I think the G haven even show all the things they discuss.. U mean proton will hold 51% or VW? Wow.. fastcx are u from proton director board? So fantastic ur news.. can post the black n white up for us?
If i want to drive a polo, the VW show room just near my house at Jalan Pinang, Penang. If u want to test drive i can get for u, I seen the car and sit on it. Sure i not drive it, coz his brother is driving.. Haiz.. fastcx i think u r jealous with me lol… 6-speed MANUAL and CVT is totally not same category, are u insane about gearbox? Have u tested even wif a Toyota levin 20V blacktop wit 6-speed before? Ask those person who drive normal 5-speed manual 20V blacktop n 6-speed manual 20v. U will know what i mean..
Haiz… Mitsu engines are not good? How about 4G93Turbo, 4G92 mivec? Those are Holy Better! I mean that the proton service center person who replace me the casket is not good! I think u misunderstand, i am criticizing the service quality of proton. Anyway that engine have been running for 10 years in city driving, which accure a lot of pick-up and braking. If ur car just left at ur home for leisure driving or highway drive, sure u will have better condition then my engine.. Do u read my engine problems? Casket leaking! not piston pecah or con road putus! Ayo!
==i m very sure about the cars. seeing is not enough, feeling it is better by driving it. polo is nice but expensive in malaysia, golf even better. those were questions that i was asking u of those cars, not claiming the civic same to polo. if categorize it in weight, the golf will be the same to accord eventhough different in size/class. what about a golf 2.0 to accord 2.0, then how to categorize of jetta and passat since the weight almost same? what about 320i and 520i then? then how about C200 to 320i or camry? anyway, it is very misleading to categorize car by weight, that i will stressed out.
An Accord is ~1550kg. That puts it in the upper mid-size sedan category. A ~1275kg Golf is a significantly smaller car.
And i dont know why some ppl seem to think the Polo is so great. They are not coming out too good in reliability surveys,… and the basic, manual, Polo…without even power windows and central locking, sells for about RM58k OTR here in Australia. Imo, the Polo is overpriced. And i seldom see them around melbourne.It’s still wrong to compare a BUDGET ~1000kg car to another BUDGET ~1200kg car as the latter is simply bigger. SIZE wise.
~1000kg: Polo, Getz, Myvi, Savvy, Yaris3dr, Jazz, City, Vios, Tiida, Swift
(of course, they vary abit, but cabin space is roughly the same). All had hard plastic trimmings.
~1200kg: Gen2(persona?), Corolla, Civic, Golf, Elantra.
Well, I went for test drives on the ~1000kg cars. Cant really say much about the ~1200kg cars other than it is much roomier. They just feel bigger. I sat in them but didnt test drive.
Im NOT saying weight is proportional to price –> It’s proportional to the size of a car IN GENERAL. A sub-1000kg Elise costs heaps more than a 1200kg budget sedan.
Dont try to muddle the logic.
Car companies make different lines of cars to suit different demographics. A ~1400kg sedan (eg Perdana. Camry) can be made with cost effective trims or luxury trims, alloy wheels etc. Btw, i thought the BMW 3series is a smaller car than the BMW 5series. Havent had the opportunity to compare so i dont really know. But on the road, the 5 and 7series have more “presence”…and look bigger. They are only about 100kg different in weight…but that 100kg of metal goes a long way in making a car look bigger.
Wahhh ezralimm you give a very very good explanation, bravo.
I totally agree with you…
Any way I think we should wait for the car to come out first, BTW proton has pledge under their new management will try to overcome their previous mistakes.
I think the took the lesson in hard way when the government implemented the NAP (nap for auto industry).
fastcx
the lowest price did u check the spec? its the lowest spec which u cant get in malaysia for the corolla u so happily quoted out, dnt tell me its same spec, check the spec 1st b4 u speak another word about their price are cheaper when u cant even compare apple to apple.
———–
According to ezralim, by weight basis, it is “apple to apple” comparison. But I wonder why he make this kind of genenralization to indicate same categories of car shall have similar wieght. The industry practice is among other, engine capacity, segmentation (A, B, C, K, etc), Types (Passenger, SUV, Truck, MPV, etc), size (sub-compact, small, medium, big/luxury).
Another htng make me wonder is ezralim emphasize on not to make generalization and be specific yet below statement posted by him is self-contradictory: –
“Im NOT saying weight is proportional to price –> It’s proportional to the size of a car IN GENERAL”
Yes, the entry level for Corrolla is 1.3cc yet they are selling at USD 12,600 (RM 44,100). OK if compare to top of the line 1.2L Savvy with similar price how??? Or MyVi???
ezralimm, Prem3377 & fastcx,
Log on below: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/proton/
Can both of you explain in greater details why Proton selling their car in UAE way below cost?
Price = Cost + mark-up
Gen-2: Proice Range Dhs 32000 – 35000 (US$ 8700 – 9500) or RM 30,45 – RM 33,250.
Savvy: Price range Dhs 23000 – 25000 (US$ 6200 – 6800) or RM 21,700 – RM 23,800.
Waja: Price Range Dhs 33900 – 36000 (US$ 9200 – 9800) or RM 32,200 – RM 34,300.
The above is PRICE offer to the public in UAE, it is way lower even compare to Langkawi price. This include the Profits and logistics, etc. But randomly check with our custom gazet list, no one other than Proton makes is lower than the list.
Can I go to Tg Malim Proton’s main gate and order at this price + RM 5K for them???????
BigFish,
i dont know how the car priced is so cheap in UAE..there is something fishy and i dont think the price is true over there..and if yes…the story will be something like how our AP holder sells car way much cheaper than main distributor…nissan 350Z from tan chong motors cost rm570000plus…but the same car from our AP holder so called used car company can sell the 2007 model for rm 280000…but really dont how its possible to sell below cost price and shipment plus etc will surely increase the cost…check other more reliable website…because i dont think proton is selling well in UAE..many 20 to 30 unit only per year…so dont you think proton wan to lower the price so much just because 20 to 30 cars??please check other website….
and about chery…come on..you know what kinda manufacturers they are…the cost of developing chery QQ???buy a chevrolet spark…strip the car..get the measurement and dimension…set the body panel on the forging machine…copy the engine design…change the cover head….modify the interior and finaly change the bumpers…maybe rm 80000 to develop one…even the brother’s designers,mechanics and etc can make such a car….so obviously they can survive by selling car at such a rate…like how proton survived and was a profit making company when they were selling rebadge mitsu cars!!now when they develop their own model with R& D cost…what happened??they started losing money…
yah lets stop the argument and lets wait for the car…dont say its over price yet because car is not out yet and we are yet to see,feel and test the car…after that we can judge if its over price or worth the money!!!
bigfish, since u quote d website, y not u js explain it? and remember, different country have different tax rate, u better ask proton about it, and i didn’t mentioned anything related to tat which makes me wonder y u involve me. and littlefire85, didn’t u read paultan last few weeks? the answer to ur question is in there. anyway, proton should stick with persona, sound ok,tho it also mean wearing a mask infront of other people, either its good thing inside or vice versa, it’s after we see the final product.
In such a situation, you see, there are two types of costs. One are the fixed costs — things like rent, interest, payroll, etc. which have to be paid regardless of the number of cars produced. The other type of cost are variable costs — steel, tyres, engine oil, etc. which increase with the number of cars produced.
When volume erodes, there comes a point where the fixed costs are no longer covered. The firm will make losses. If raising the price is not an option, lowering it is the next, even if the lower price of the car does not cover its portion of the fixed costs. Every dollar earned above variable cost would go to offset losses due to the fixed costs. It’s all about volume.
LittleFire85,
u talk crap man…sorry to say this but when you read again what u write here…it doesnt make sense at all…
you want me to learn about power to weight ratio??oki will if thats wat you want..
VW polo is 1058 kg to be exact and waja is 1200 kg for the manual version as you claim…so there is 142 kg difference…am i correct??
power to weight ratio is calculated like this…vw produce 75 hp and waja is 103 hp(old waja)..u have to divide weight with the bhp and then times 1000kg(1 tonne) and i will get the power to weight ratio..the difference is just 10 hp but FC is mainly about torque…so VW has 126 Nm of torque and proton waja has 130 plus…so if you use the same method to calculate…it obvious VW polo has higher torque to weight ratio and this helps FC since waja is about 142 kg heavier and only 10 Nm plus torque…compared to VW polo..and cc wise its lower than waja and has 1 extra gear…my conclusion is..on paper polo will surely win hands down on fc..its like you are comparing perodua kelisa 1.0 and perodua kancil 850 and telling that perodua kancil has better FC than VW..haha..come on la man…you are comparing the wrong car
but with the campro engine..its a different story…waja campro FC is 5.9 liter for 100 km and same goes to VW polo due to higher torque of the campro engine…but yet if you drive on the highway with similar rpm…VW will always win in FC cause its 1.4…so please man..find someone in the same category to compare FC….and dont teach a duck to swim…
Hi, alfa 147 only came out from the year of 2002 plus there is no 1.5L, in malaysia only had 1.6L manual or 2.0selespeed. Alfa only produce boxer engine, boxter is some others car modal. Please ensure before say it out loud.
We are here to talk about Proton Persona name not here to argue about tax and etc. if proton offer bad quality, just say it out but please made sure in the right place and title.
fastcx, already mentioned it is selling below cost based on “apple-to-apple” basis! In this case it is comparing Proton cars prices in Malaysia vs. UAE. So now seek you view as previously you mentioned I don’t make the indepth study on the specs!
Prem3377, this is confirm the selling price in UAE as I got a friend working with public listed company but station at Abu Dhabi construction project. Their car is tax free or minimum tax as even Toyota make in Thailand is selling at higher price in Thai but when export to UAE it is lower price (but not below cost).
Why it is selling below cost or at subsidy (but not dumping price), as Prem3377 mentioned the sold units is small may be one of the reason as Proton still can “afford/absord” the losses. But where is “pride” and “patriotism” in this case?
ezralimm, where is your “reasonable” price argument??????
anon, Proton pricing is purely free market competition in UAE and nothing to do with variable and fix cost!
fastcx, as you said different country have different tax structure that I fully agree with you. But in Proton case, it is selling below cost, means 0% tax for a cost of RM 36,000 but selling price RM 32,000 is interprete as one of the likely outcome is “subsidy”!
It is not a case of economic term it as dumping price or as what marketing jargon term it as “stock clearance”!
Prem3377, since u saying i am talking crap.. what u r replying also crap? Anywayz i dont reply crap except people say it in here, so in return i respond. Anywayz old Waja engine got at least 140n*m while campro just increase to 148.. I tot u should compare to Campro. Anywayz i just ask my friend is from Dune/fun spec polo.. and his car is original 17′ rims, i don’t think that 1058kg is from that car model.. He told me at least 1100kg..
http://www.carenthusiast.com/roadtests.html?mode=tech&id=50 (15′ rim spec, diesel spec) Anyway his polo is sluggish when pick up.. Anyway if compare kancil 850 manual with kelisa 1.0 manual.. I bet RM100 with u i take Kelisa, would u take the bet to run both cars 100km mix in town + highway area? Sometime not CC less then save fuel..
Anywayz UAE is also oil exporter, like us got Petronas. Their G really very rich and take good care of their people.. But why on earth we have Petronas so large the oil company, selling our fuel all of the world but still our country so many ppl in poverty and tax so much? Anywayz UAE now going to property development, to change his desert into a green land.. Wow.. I think UAE are more larger then Malaysia in term of land and development.. But really, cars are cheap in real world.. how would a few piece of metal + plastic + aluminum + glass + rubber + mass produce technology cost in real world? Only fuel is the one which is expensive, coz it is depleting..
Anyways i just saw the persona just now in Prai.. The interior change a bit, but overall is still the same with gen.2. behind seat have higher and spacier. seats are not same, dashboard center time console no more, i think maybe replace in the meter or cd-player? i think i got see the glove box, hmm.. Anyway i think still need to test drive it.. the trye i saw is from Sime Tyre 195/60 R15! I tot bridgestone got 185/60 R15 used in yaris and latio, why not use that? I think i am the first few to saw it.. hehe.. coz of my proton friend thx ya! But still cannot test drive.. T.T
Proton should install the bulging character line running from the front wheel to the rear of the car. That’ll give it an air of ‘German precision engineering’ look. Of course, a hoffmeister kink wouldn’t hurt.
Apathy said,
August 7, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
hurmmmmm don’t care bout proton new cars. had ultra extremely bad experience with my mom 2002 waja. interior quality sucks. got all d waja problem—-glove box tak ketat, door handle patah(plastik murah), absorber/suspension berbunyi, power windows problem…….kesian tengok my mom bayar instalment mahal2 for a crappy car. just not worth it…….then again, this is Bolehland……..huhuhuhuhu. ermmm anyway, i drive a 1995 iswara aeroback n i treat our road macam litar sepang, drive like alonso with 9 lives…….corrupt rakyat deserve a corrupt govt.
—————————————————————-
Well, Proton has quality issues. However, Savvy and Satria Neo have much lesser quality problem compared to Waja and Gen2. All car manufacturers have their own quality issues for their cars. My friend’s Toyota Vios less than 2 years, now having power windows failure too. Sounds familiar? Anyway, it doesn’t mean every car having same problem(s). It’s more like inconsistant in quality. Proton cars also like that.
We can not always blame on the car manufacturers alone as every vendors that supply parts to the car manufacturers have their own quality control department too. One last thing, not every single product from production come with 100% perfect. Some defects might exist and some will have longer life span than others and on the other hand. No one can tell when the parts will fail. (Example: Just like computer hard drive, some will serve your for years but some will last for a year.)
Cheers. :)
dear ezralimm,
of course i know golf is smaller in size. that’s the reason why i asked u the weights of the golf 2.0 and accord 2.0. transportation is part of my bread and butter, sometimes have to go through those machines before there arrive to malaysia. can’t mentioned much but just to let u know, vehicles were categorized in size and segments.
u should test the bmw 3series and 5series. similar weight but in different size. try it out and u will feel different in driving pleasure. ur concept may change, when u test the new sedan.
cheers. enjoy motoring.
Prem3377 said,
August 8, 2007 @ 12:32 am
==what u said might be true. why not test out a vios 1.5 with a viva 1.0 at the speed of 140km/h? which one will be more efficient? or maybe u can compared myvi 1.3 with vios 1.5 at the speed of 140km/h?
weight is only one of the many elements to be counted for FC. types of engines, types of gearbox, type of gears, gear ratios, power/torque transfer, ff/fr/awd/fwd, Cd, types of aircond compressors, types of power steering, etc.. just too many to be mentioned.
Hi,
If anybody think that country car price is cheaper & better in terms of living or so why not juts migrate there? since we all born in malaysia, please accept the fact that you are malaysian and need to accpet whatever is offering in malaysia.
Any country has thier own good and bad, if you dont like the tax structure in malaysia, please go complaint straight to the correct department even you can goto newspaper and not here which is a car forum that suppose to let every person to enjoy motoring fun.
Proton having quality issue, you can voice up but if they changing even from today, give them a chance to grow up.
LittleFire85 said,
August 8, 2007 @ 2:17 am
Anywayz i just ask my friend is from Dune/fun spec polo.. and his car is original 17′ rims, i don’t think that 1058kg is from that car model.. He told me at least 1100kg..
==VW never offer 17 inch standard rim for polo 1.4..only the cross polo has 17′ as standard and has 6 speed automatic gearbox and its not 1.4…its 1.6…get your facts right 1st..either your dont know what car he drives or you dont know what car your friend drives…and once again..even if its 1.6 its lighter than waja cause dimensionally its way much smaller than waja…so obviously the FC is better….and another thing is…its double the price of a waja….plus GERMAN technology vs malaysian..so is it a fair comparison???
again i am telling you…what you are try to say doesnt make sense…i am just trying to help you face the reality thats all….
Anyway if compare kancil 850 manual with kelisa 1.0 manual.. I bet RM100 with u i take Kelisa, would u take the bet to run both cars 100km mix in town + highway area? Sometime not CC less then save fuel..
==i dont need to bet on this…i own a kelisa and its my very 1st car which i bought with my own money and i do know about the FC but again…what i was try to prove to you is…engine capacity does make significant difference in FC…for an example…just assume that at 5000 rpm both car produces maximum power…using the maximum volume available…so the kancil saves about 150 cc on each cycle…and that alot…so is it a fair comparison to make??that the reason i gave you this example on my previous post…after the cc only then we should compare transmission,engine technology,ecu management…secondly aerodynamics,weight,size,tyres and lastly driving habit,road condition,city driving,highway driving and so on!!do you understand now???
for an example…if compare Honda city VTEC and city i-dsi…both same cc but different technology…so you can say the i-dsi’s FC is better than VTEC then its a fair comparison…thats on paper….when u start driving..just assume your route is to genting..where you have to drive up hill…now the VTEC will have better FC end of the day..because of power to weight ratio and torque to weight ratio..but when comes to city driving..the i-dsi have the upper hand cause power and torque doesnt play much importance…what i am trying to say is…
even on paper the VW polo is a clear winner….so why do you need to even compare it to a proton waja since it wont make any difference?????regardless of driving condition and etc…VW has way much better technology compared to proton..so again is it fair???come on man…be realistic…that why i say some time you talk without sense!!
BTW..you all talk freakin’ too much! try to lessen the debate between some of you…..
#
BigFish said,
August 8, 2007 @ 1:34 am
ezralimm, where is your “reasonable†price argument??????
________________________________________________________
Bigfish, this is the third time im gonna say this in this topic.
INTERNET PRICES ARE *NOT* _ON THE ROAD_ PRICES.
A Corolla is only AUD20k (RM60k) according to the australian website. But ends up being about RM75k ON THE ROAD for the baseline manual version. Auto was about RM80k OTR. I initially planned to get a ~1200kg sedan. I thought my ~RM60k budget permitted it… I was a n00b then. Trusting what i read on websites and “coffeeshop” talk/arguments. It’s simply not true.
DONT TAKE INTERNET PRICES AS GOSPEL TRUTH.
Only take seriously ON THE ROAD prices. Because that’s the prices mentioned in Malaysian sales brochures.
OFF ROAD prices will always be much cheaper than OTR prices.
Im not an ardent proton supporter or fanboy but I do believe Proton does deserve to have a fair chance and be cast in fair light. Spreading misconceptions about it’s (already cheap) pricing just makes things worse and muddles the truth.
u should test the bmw 3series and 5series. similar weight but in different size. try it out and u will feel different in driving pleasure. ur concept may change, when u test the new sedan.
cheers. enjoy motoring.
______________________________________
lol, i dont think i would be able to afford one in the next ten years ;)
As we live in a very unfair, ridiculously taxed car market, you need to choose to become:
1. 1st class mentality buyer:
Demand the best value for your hard-earned money. Or,
2. 3rd world mentality buyer/No-brainer:
Accept anything for any value of your money, crappily speaking.
Your collective action by not supporting a fast sinking ship –guess who? (multiple by buyers nationwide) will determine that’ll put an end to wasting rakyat money thru EPF, end to ever-faulty cronies autoparts supplier, end to unwanted ugly problematic shameful car models, end of over-ambitious attitude that proved to be futile in the end.
LittleFire85 said,
August 8, 2007 @ 2:30 am
Anyways i just saw the persona just now in Prai.. The interior change a bit, but overall is still the same with gen.2. behind seat have higher and spacier. seats are not same, dashboard center time console no more, i think maybe replace in the meter or cd-player? i think i got see the glove box, hmm.. Anyway i think still need to test drive it.. the trye i saw is from Sime Tyre 195/60 R15! I tot bridgestone got 185/60 R15 used in yaris and latio, why not use that? I think i am the first few to saw it.. hehe.. coz of my proton friend thx ya! But still cannot test drive.. T.T
———————————————–
Hi LittleFire85, i am at Prai too! Which proton outlet at prai that you mentioned as per the above? The one at Inderawasih? Or near Seberang Jaya?
yess, protonG suffers from bad rep due to suka sangat lantik kroni? spare parts vendors. these crappy vendors make/supply crappy proton parts hence we get shit. protonG—–better cantas ALL ur crappy vendors. protonG shud setup their own sub-sub small-small company, these company make only spare parts 4 protonG, each small-small company only make specific parts, protonG kawal kualiti n price. thus, rakyats get better car. ermmm in addition, just let go R3 division. biar R3 be a seperate company. Remember, protonG make cars for family oriented rakyats not boyRacer or F1 n rally drebar. Families needs space not coupe/mini car. ermmm nak launch protonG MPV by 2009? too late lar. shud launch back then in 2000. protonG—-a case of management problm, wrong planning, bad timing…..huuhuhuhu cukup boley buat 1 buku khas just for management case-study. kalu jual, sure laku punya. Viel Glück Proton…
Folks, they know what their problems are, heck everyone knows it. All articles that point out the issues will be censored from the papers except for lame ones. This is so that Protons’ problems i.e. build quality, parts quality, safety features, technical features is ten years behind.
They also know that they cannot compete even with 2 yo companies from China. I believe they’ll figure out something, maybe even conduct a market research before producing a new model.
Try something, if it doesn’t work, try something else. No idea is too crazy. It becomes bad when the trying stops.
ezralimm said,
August 8, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
Bigfish, this is the third time im gonna say this in this topic.
INTERNET PRICES ARE *NOT* _ON THE ROAD_ PRICES.
———————-
This is not OTR price then what price they are displaying? OK maybe plus RM 2K insurance????
I like this ‘debate’,like watching movies with sequel..Persona have become Personal..in the end nobody cares….
w said,
August 8, 2007 @ 12:41 am
Hi, alfa 147 only came out from the year of 2002 plus there is no 1.5L, in malaysia only had 1.6L manual or 2.0selespeed. Alfa only produce boxer engine, boxter is some others car modal. Please ensure before say it out loud.
==what u mentioned, alfa romeo twinspark or v6 jts engine is a boxer engine, are u sure of that?
by the way, this new sedan haven’t launch yet. so the name persona don’t know is confirmed or not.
OTR prices are usually significantly higher.
eg.
gen2 RM36k OffRoad –> RM46k OTR.
In australia (fair tax. only 2.5% tariff on imports)
still, Corolla RM60k OffRoad –> ~RM73k OTR. (NON INCLUSIVE OF INSURANCE comprehensive cover will set you back another ~RM6500 a year depending on age of driver, suburb where parked at night etc.)
___________________________________________
mukhri88 said,
August 8, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
They also know that they cannot compete even with 2 yo companies from China. I believe they’ll figure out something, maybe even conduct a market research before producing a new model.
## I think most people will favour a Proton over a Chery…
————————————–
Max88 said,
2. 3rd world mentality buyer/No-brainer:
Accept anything for any value of your money, crappily speaking.
## Not true. The malaysian govt has been pretty fair to the average malaysian family. Slowly it has introduced some brands to ‘push’ the 20yr old company proton. eg. Naza and Perodua. Dont say their cars are expensive. They are not. Compare the OnTheRoad (OTR) prices of the proton cars and the OTR prices of similar cars overseas and you will see that they are actually pretty similar. It’s only when you compare the OTR price with Off-road prices in other countries (on the internet) that things seem very biased. Ask anyone who has purchased a car overseas in recent years if you dont believe me.
Even IF proton/NAP didnt exist, a Corolla/Civic would be around RM70k+ OTR. Proton is making a similar sized sedan for ~RM36k…~RM50k OTR. Sure, no high tech stuff…but how often does the average person rev to 4500rpm+ where DVVT/VTI starts to kick in?
Owh, and pls dont compare it to the RM55k City (a budget mini sedan based on the ~1000kg jazz platform) in Langkawi… It’s a different sized car alltogether – more suitably compared to Proton’s upcoming budget mini sedan based on the Savvy platform…that should be significantly cheaper than RM55k.
And Malaysians pay roughly 1/3rd the market price for petrol… and all the low prices of food and services as a result of that. The international price is about RM4 per litre currently for standard unleaded.
Ultimately, we are a 50yr old developing country. Our PPP is three to four times lower than that of developed nations – when working unskilled jobs (eg cashier. gardener) earns about RM40 an hour. So yeah… cars are more affordable, relatively, to people in developed countries.
—————————————–
Wong,
glad you like the movie soap opera.
yes soap opera is the correct word..u,ll get attached..very addictive!!
Obviously some people are not doing accounting study,
Few claim, if Proton are subsidies or using tax payer money then how could their annual account showing a big red?
My answer for you is:because those in the higher managment position are sucking the money from the company having huge income call director remuneration. Proton losing money doesnt bother them because they still in bind into the contract receiving their agreed monthly salary and some luxury allowance and benefits witin their term of service.
Share market price drop, they will never care cause they playing with Option, either they purposely make the price drop or push it up after they have enough.
Proton is not a really bad car, Engine wise i would say it is more reliable than any other continental car, but in terms of interior and exterior quality, it is sucks. My had previous bad experience with a Satria and Iswara, power window malfunction are not uncommon thing, some silly sound from the back, central locking problem, and some cheap plastic on the dashboard.
But anyway, i wouldnt complain anything if those Proton model are selling at more reasonable price. People are complaining mainly because we paying too much for a low quality car.
Imagine a Waja selling at….(what is the price of waja currently selling at?i am sorry since 5 years ago i have never put my eye on Proton car so i dont know the exactly the price they are selling), do you think it is worth your money?one more thing as understand from my friend who currently driving a Wira Super Edition, his maintainance cost are higher than i am servicing my Camry!!!
ezralimm said,
August 8, 2007 @ 7:54 pm
OTR prices are usually significantly higher.
———————-
Below are e-mail communication with my friend from Abu Dhabi, UAE: –
————————
Loo,
I saw in the UAE website showing the car prices is extra ordinary lowest.
For example: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/proton/
The price of Gen-2 is start from Dhs 32000 – 35000 (US$ 8700 – 9500).
Is this price is ON THE ROAD price?
or there are other not included, e.g. road tax, insurance, etc. If that is the case I would like to know the OTR price for car in UAE (just for my knowledge).
U can log in below to search for all models available in UAE market!
http://www.drivearabia.com/newvehicleguide.html
Thanks.
Hope you reply me on the above.
————————
Reply: –
The price shown not included the insurances, registration …etc . but just top up other around AED3,000++ will enough.
like Mitsubishi Lancer (old model) here just sale around 40k only.
————————
That means OTR price for small cars (e.g. A, B and C segment) is by top up RM 2,750 for insurances, registration, etc. But this monies is not part of selling price that go into Proton coffer. Therefore, this confirm Proton car sold at below cost in Middle East!!!!! So, what else you want to argue, or if you still have benefit of doubt on the above, you can log in below and make enquiry: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/email.html
1. So your statement that car such as Honda Civic can’t sell OTR at RM 55K in any part of the world is rejected.
2. To categorize car and compare them based on similar weight is very bias.
wong, by 15 August 07, it is “wrestlemania” …… make PT headache again!!!!!
haha..wrestlemania’no holds barred’!! so I’ll just be the sibuk spectator..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo&mode=related&search=
proton car batter than the chinese car,
Max88 said,
August 8, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
Your collective action by not supporting a fast sinking ship –guess who? (multiple by buyers nationwide) will determine that’ll put an end to wasting rakyat money thru EPF, end to ever-faulty cronies autoparts supplier, end to unwanted ugly problematic shameful car models, end of over-ambitious attitude that proved to be futile in the end.
_____________________________________________________________
again another rumour…where did you get you information that proton is getting thru EPF???
logic will answer you this…if proton were to take EPF money their account will not be on the red…maybe you might argue that proton need way much more than what they are earning to survive..but….
ok lets put it this way…if EPF were to give its money to proton…how will EPF pay back to people who is after 55??and they do pay back with additional interest….which is way much higher than a bank…so if they were to give out money simply to help proton…many would have complained for not getting their EPF…
conclusion is..you are the one having a third world mentality…how you would ask??….spreading rumours and accepting whatever people say and spreading the lie to the rest is how people with 3rd world mentality behave…
so what do expect from the rest??
ezralimm said,
August 8, 2007 @ 7:54 pm
OTR prices are usually significantly higher.
————————
Check with my friend at Abu Dhabi regarding the price shown in the website: –
http://www.drivearabia.com/proton/
He commented: –
“The price shown not included the insurances, registration …etc . but just top up other around AED3,000++ will enough.
like Mitsubishi Lancer (old model) here just sale around 40k only.”
AED 3,000 ++ = RM 2,750++
So, include the insurances, registration …. etc is OTR price for car. Proton, therefore sell their car in UAE well below cost!
ezralimm said,
August 8, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
Bigfish, this is the third time im gonna say this in this topic.
INTERNET PRICES ARE *NOT* _ON THE ROAD_ PRICES.
—————–
So, here again you are self-contradict by make a sweeping generalization statement, in which you “complaint” when other do the same. Be specific dude …..
But for me we can make generalization and specific as the situation is appropriate!
OK, the above posting by me shown your statement is applicable but yet again your argument that Civic can’t sell at around RM 55K in any part of the world is unacceptable since OTR price in UAE is RM 2,750 + drivearabia.com price range.
To be specific, below are link in internet that show OTR price for car: –
http://www.toyota.com.my/#
http://www.nissan.com.my/vehicles/lineup/index.html
Again, your sweeping generalization is not true for the above links since they published OTR price.
wong, “too much” ……………………… aiya likely follow u become “sibuk spectator” in a week on 15th August 07 ……… “or huha, bla, bla, bla, kedebam in the ring”…… ha, ha, …….
ezralimm and bigfish,
need not to argue, both of u have ur points. cars is just a machines only. lots of countries may not be able to have a corolla/civic at rm60k otr but not all. but then elantra/sentra? what about CKD or CBU make? anyhow, car prices in US is almost half the price in malaysia. check out US price, corolla 1.8 is below rm60k, so OTR? corolla 1.8 in malaysia is around rm120k OTR. but when my parents visited my aunt&uncle for a month last year . my dad and uncle test drove all sorts of cars of D-class, and end up with a camry 2.4. the price less than rm100k OTR is almost half the price in malaysia. but my dad asked why not a BMW525i since my uncle like it much and was less than rm200k. is no point arguing afterall in malaysia we have limited choice as a consumer.
I do like the new car called “Persona”, after all, is in Malay language. I don’t understand why the hatchback version called “Gen-2” (Gen-two), it is in English! Why english name use for Malaysian made car? Even though you call pronounce it is Malay, not even proton personel did that. :) Anyway, is old story……..My wife owns one Gen-2 herself!
Well, i sure hope proton will realy commited with their own motto, “Dare to change”. It is time proton listen to Malaysia, not ‘syok sendiri’ any more. Proton better deliver cars that Malaysian want, not the cars that there think Malaysia want.
Good car should be consider as the whole, take Savvy for instant, the quality is good, handling is outstanding (i’d test drive it), but it doesn’t have good look! I means, too many people thought that it is ‘ugly’. (sorry, cannot find better word). May be proton should consider phasing it out.
Satria Neo was nice, it even look better the Gen-2, the only drawback was 3-doors arrangement.
Last time, Satria became best selling 3-door car. Unfortunately, market always changed. Needless to say, Malaysia have broader choice nowadays, causing less Satria Neo sighted on the road.
It time to change, why don’t Proton add up another doors to Neo, just like the Mazda RX8, it should add postive value to the car.
Proton, please consider my suggestion, others please comment…….:))
p/s : like it or not, Proton is Pride of Our Nation.
Bigfish..happy motoring…cheers…
Hi tech96248,
i m just trying to point out that Alfa do produce boxer engine not boxter engine plus 147 is only in twin spark engine for malaysia market also for sure is less than 5 years old and Alfa do produce the Twin spark and V6 engine which is famous and most delicious 4 in line or v6 engine..
#
BigFish said,
August 9, 2007 @ 6:03 am
So, here again you are self-contradict by make a sweeping generalization statement, in which you “complaint†when other do the same. Be specific dude …..But for me we can make generalization and specific as the situation is appropriate!
OK, the above posting by me shown your statement is applicable but yet again your argument that Civic can’t sell at around RM 55K in any part of the world is unacceptable since OTR price in UAE is RM 2,750 + drivearabia.com price range.
To be specific, below are link in internet that show OTR price for car: –
http://www.toyota.com.my/#
http://www.nissan.com.my/vehicles/lineup/index.html
Again, your sweeping generalization is not true for the above links since they published OTR price.
____________________________________________________
…i wont even begin scrutinizing your grammar.
but ok, i admit that I made a small technical error. Internet prices are GENERALLY not OTR. Most proton critics with coffeeshop type arguments get their car prices from FOREIGN websites that ALMOST NEVER display OTR prices.
Satisfied?
OTR prices are usually about 25% higher than those that you see on car comparison websites. Again, this varies by country.
Bottom line: A ~1200kg small japanese sedan is about RM75k OTR in MOST COUNTRIES. A ~1200kg small proton sedan is about RM50k OTR (RM38k non-OTR). Not so technologically advanced, but still a car. It’s a budget car so dont expect too much. ***It is not overpriced***.
tec,
A mid-level trim 1.8L Corolla is about RM85k OTR in the United Kingdom. I doubt it would be too different in the States. Below RM60k is really a bargain by any standard for a current generation Corolla. Btw, a BMW5series is about RM200k OTR and a Camry2.4 is about roughly RM105-145k OTR here in australia (prices excluding insurance)…
ezralimm,
thanks for the info of the price in aus. i know the price in uk, bcos my brother is looking for a car overthere. my dad and sis went overthere last year. as usual, my dad will test drive some cars overthere. imagine it if the price in aus or uk can be applied to malaysia, what would it happen? a rm85k of corolla instead of rm120k, or a camry2.4 rm105k-rm145k instead of rm170k? more wonderful was 525i could be sold at rm200k instead of rm400k. what will we choose between a waja1.6 rm60k and corolla1.8 rm85k? i guess lots of people won’t complaint much if the car prices is similar to uk or aus, moreover, we have mostly ckd make and our gdp is lower. do u agree? anyway, this new car around rm50k is an option, just consider it as one of the cheapest sedan overhere. and the name persona is ok too.
Actually car prices for equivalent models in the US are generally significantly cheaper than in the UK. RM 85k OTR for a mid level corolla in the US would be considered overpriced. Lower tax, intense competition among dealers and manufacturers, and market saturation allow a knowledgeable and patient car shopper in the US to get exceptional bargains.
The corolla price quoted is pretty believable as it is historically an aggressively discounted model. In the US most people actually pay much less than the listed price after negotiations, so even after adding tax and insurance the OTR prices are lower than what one might think.
http://media.paultan.org/satrianeo/satrianeo_enginebay.jpg
sorry off topic a bit, look at the picture of a campro engine ,
–a huge opening intake trunk , ram air type (scooping air) , big air filter,
(higher rpm eagerness)–
apart from engine magement, or other setting, the above is partly contributed to torque and power band biased toward higher engine speed,
how about retune the intake with something a bit smaller in diameter and a bit longer, intake trunking,
miiight shift the torque earlier bit, of course will sacrifice top end, but how often we reach 5000, 10% throughout the driving experience.
(decend alternative to VIM)
proton GL said,
August 10, 2007 @ 6:43 pm
http://media.paultan.org/satrianeo/satrianeo_enginebay.jpg
how about retune the intake with something a bit smaller in diameter and a bit longer, intake trunking,
miiight shift the torque earlier bit, of course will sacrifice top end, but how often we reach 5000, 10% throughout the driving experience.
__________________________________________________________________________
Agreed with u on this. How often do we reach 5000rpm? We drive mostly in city areas.
(decend alternative to VIM)
hmmm….nice n cute name yaa..
Confirmed it is called ‘Persona’. Someone in other car forums has spotted a few units being delivered in a truck. The badging on the rear says ‘Persona’.
hi to all..
aku punyer ofis belakang proton edar..kereta dah ade kat show room tu tapi di tutup dengan kanvas..emm puas memujuk salesgirl tu then dia pun bukak lah cikit kanvas tu..tepat sekali..namanye PERSONA..then for me the interior look luxury n so so so nice..mmm cun ah…
for external surelah macam gen2 but with a nice workmanship..look nice n can compete with other brands..but the performance donna yet…
emm puas memujuk salesgirl tu then dia pun bukak lah
awieeeeeeee……………………………..
ade sape2 taw x dimensions bumper pesona?