Punch develops new VT5 torque converter CVT and DT1 7-spd DCT – will they be in future Proton models?

Belgian transmission maker Punch Powertrain has introduced a new continuously variable transmission (CVT), succeeding the current VT2 and VT3 units. If these names sound familiar to you, that’s because both the older CVTs are being used in the Proton’s current crop of cars – the VT2 in the Saga, the VT2+ in the Iriz and the VT3 in the Exora, Suprima S and Preve Turbo models.

The VT5 transmission distinguishes itself from the other models by virtue of utilising a torque converter (like the G Design Shift CVT on the Honda Jazz and City) instead of a start-up clutch, to improve performance when pulling away from a standstill as well as on inclines.

This would rectify a major complaint on the CVTs on current Protons (along with the comparatively high fuel consumption, of course), even though the characteristics of the transmissions have been much improved since their first use on the Saga FLX in 2011.

Punch also claims the VT5 has the world’s largest ratio coverage for a single CVT, and has been developed for a wide range of cars in mind – the transmission has a large torque range of up to 250 Nm. This could perhaps help streamline Proton’s gearboxes, having a single CVT for both low-output naturally-aspirated models (Saga, Iriz) as well as high-output turbocharged variants (Exora Turbo, Preve Turbo, Suprima S).

Additionally, the VT5 is also said to be able to be fitted with technologies such as auto stop/start and sailing/coasting modes, possibly paving the way for more economical Protons.

Proton_Iriz_Review_ 057

Also unveiled is a new DT1 seven-speed dual-clutch transmission designed specifically for smaller vehicles, rated at up to 160 Nm. The compact gearbox is said to be more economical than any other transmission, while being significantly cheaper thanks to fewer components.

The short first gear is optimised for the low-torque applications foreseen for the DCT, for stronger, smoother acceleration, particularly on inclines. Nevertheless, the wide ratio coverage is claimed to deliver favourable fuel consumption.

The big question is, of course, whether Proton will actually use these transmissions. We’ve previously reported that the national carmaker is considering the use of torque converter CVTs for future applications, but the latest rumours actually suggest that Proton may be using Jatco transmissions instead, as the Nissan-owned company erected its own stand at the recent Alami Proton open day.

It has to be said, however, that all these developments happened before Punch built its own torque converter CVT, so it’s unclear whether this will affect Proton’s future plans just yet.

Looking to sell your car? Sell it with Carro.

Certified Pre-Owned - 1 Year Warranty

10% discount when you renew your car insurance

Compare prices between different insurer providers and use the promo code 'PAULTAN10' when you make your payment to save the most on your car insurance renewal compared to other competing services.

Car Insurance

Jonathan Lee

After trying to pursue a career in product design, Jonathan Lee decided to make the sideways jump into the world of car journalism instead. He therefore appreciates the aesthetic appeal of a car, but for him, the driving experience is still second to none.

 

Comments

  • karam singh on Nov 20, 2015 at 1:30 pm

    CVT with torque converter gonna make the car more fun to drive. But its gonna suffer abit on the Fuel Consumption.

    Hope with some tuning & modification, proton can make car more fun yet economical car to drive.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 34 Thumb down 10
    • Same L0rrrr on Nov 20, 2015 at 2:21 pm

      Hidden due to lowcomment rating. Click here to see.

      Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 141
      • But CVT mated to turbo engine is just stupid

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 55
        • FIST (Member) on Nov 20, 2015 at 3:25 pm

          Like the new Honda Civic?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 47 Thumb down 2
          • Hidden due to lowcomment rating. Click here to see.

            Poorly-rated. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 127
          • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:18 pm

            People with no insecurity issues and no ego issues can drive any car they like without feeling like a pariah. People who are insecure and constantly concerned about what other people think of them will be insecure in any situation

            Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 81 Thumb down 3
          • john lagend on Nov 21, 2015 at 1:11 am

            working so hard just to buy the fugly yet poor handling and no driving dynamic toyota vios just for the rv is just plain stupid

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 37 Thumb down 2
        • sepul on Nov 20, 2015 at 3:40 pm

          Stupid is those who drives a car like a road rage.

          Turbo + CVT is not stupid. It is less fun.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 36 Thumb down 1
        • Sammy Loo on Nov 21, 2015 at 9:10 pm

          Subaru pair it that way too for the Forester and WRX

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1
        • Lansiliew on Apr 28, 2016 at 4:19 am

          Wah.. you are so clever boy, BMW should hire you , hurry up go and present your calculation turbo and cvt equal stupid

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
      • karam singh on Nov 20, 2015 at 5:22 pm

        Do you think all the things inside a Toyota , made or developed from Japan ?
        Toyota pure Japan ?
        Toyota a Japanese company, but here in Malaysia, lots of its part made in thailand.
        So… Japanese car not so japanese ?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 37 Thumb down 1
        • Lansiliew on Apr 28, 2016 at 4:23 am

          Not really la bro, made in rawang also got one, one factory supply many oem, supply only one car maker three month your factory close shop oooo

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
      • idealtech on Nov 22, 2015 at 7:26 pm

        Most Japs drivers are deluded thinking their car mechanics were developed by unknown extraterresterial technology, driving as if they are on drug wondering how efficient and breatkthrough their 4speeder with car name of letter V of toyoda. *Fact, most of japs driver is a boner when they step on the fuel*

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1
      • Lansiliew on Apr 28, 2016 at 4:14 am

        Suit your name, dont show your peanut brain on the internet for the world to see. Make some research o before posting, your attitude shows your altitude

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
    • IrizX on Nov 20, 2015 at 2:54 pm

      Please. If you don’t know anything, don’t comment.
      CVT is never “fun to drive”. It is for comfort and better FC. And what crap is this about worst FC with a CVT with torque converter? Honda’s latest Earthdream CVT makes the best in class FC in the City and Jazz.

      The internet is full of morons who pretends to be expert.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 66 Thumb down 2
      • karam singh on Nov 20, 2015 at 5:15 pm

        FC gonna suffer a bit from a CVT with torque converter rather than conventional CVT.But, its too general.

        CVT is fun to drive than 4speeder ;)

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3
        • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:26 pm

          A CVT is just the ratio-varying mechanism within a transaxle. The engine-facing coupling for a CVT gearbox can be a torque converter or multi-plate clutch.

          Most of the existing CVT gearboxes have been using a torque converter as the coupling.. that indeed is a “normal” CVT. CVTs from Aisin, Jatco and others all use torque converters.

          A different type of CVT would be the Punch VT2 and VT3 gearboxes that Proton has been using, which uses multi-plate clutch packs as the engine-facing coupling.

          So now, Punch has produced a “normal” CVT gearbox which might finally resolve the issues faced with the prior “different” CVT gearboxes that they were making

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1
          • aeuie2010 on Nov 21, 2015 at 7:38 am

            More accurately, the coupling to the flywheel.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
        • IrizX on Nov 21, 2015 at 10:57 am

          Your talk is empty. Show me a proton car with PUNCH CVT with better FC than a City/Jazz. Don’t just talk empty and pluck figures from air. Bodoh.

          And you keep insisting CVT is “fun to drive” shows your knowledge about car is ZERO.

          I have nothing against CVT, all my cars are CVT, they are reliable and comfortable to drive with minimal to no jerking from shock-shift compared to conventional torque converter. But FUN it is not.

          The internut is full of bodoh stubborn people.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3
      • Jeffrey Ng on Nov 20, 2015 at 5:16 pm

        Chill it!

        Go uphill with CVT car in stepless mode and it will be fun to drive as you are always in the engine’s power sweet spot. Been driving a CVT for the pass 10 years. I think it is fun.

        Torque converters are less efficient than clutch. That’s a fact. Anytime you take the same basic CVT and replace the clutch with torque converter, you will suffer in terms of efficiency.

        Modern torque converter CVT can have better efficiency because of additional improvements to the pulleys and belt/chain.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2
        • fleur on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:34 pm

          Yea right.Perhaps you love the CVT whine in an uphill drive.

          Torque converter CVT are less efficient compare to clutch based, that is true. However, they just don’t jerk in traffic jams and low speed usage compare to clutch based ones.

          When both get up to speed, both type of CVT will perform equally in terms of efficiency as most torque converters have a lock-up clutch.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
          • Wizard on Jul 17, 2018 at 4:14 pm

            Hence why the old school torque converter would be good.Perhaps can be ZF for a 6hp21 would be enough for the Preve if it’s possible to mount the damn thing.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
        • fleur on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:41 pm

          Proton should have used Aisin instead of Jatco. Inspira already using Jatco and it is proven that it has the rubber-band effect and the CVT whine is loud when you try to push the car uphill.
          All in all, perhaps just the ditch the whole CVT and buy the Aisin 6 speeder conventional auto gearbox which is already in the VW Polo Sedan. No more jerking at crawling speeds in traffic jams and it is reliable.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2
        • IrizX on Nov 21, 2015 at 10:58 am

          Your talk is empty. Show me a proton car with PUNCH CVT with better FC than a City/Jazz. Don’t just talk empty and pluck figures from air. Bodoh.

          And you keep insisting CVT is “fun to drive” shows your knowledge about car is ZERO.

          I have nothing against CVT, all my cars are CVT, they are reliable and comfortable to drive with minimal to no jerking from shock-shift compared to conventional torque converter. But FUN it is not.

          The internut is full of bodoh stubborn people.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2
        • IrizX on Nov 21, 2015 at 11:04 am

          “torque converter CVT less efficient”.

          In theory perhaps. Please show some REAL examples. I name you tons of fuel sucking AT gb cars. Just grab most car from KIA will fit the bill.

          Fact is, in real world implementation, it’s all to insignificant to impact anything. The car’s weight to power ratio and engine will overshadow all these factors.

          The City’s Earthdream CVT can manage a 20km/l on highway drive..out from an old engine! The only other AT car at same range which can match is probably Mazda2, thanks to it’s new SkyActiv engine, rather than the AT gearbox.

          There is simply no conclusive evidence of a CVT with TC is worst off than a traditional Torque Converter gb. Nada.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
          • Irizftw on Nov 21, 2015 at 12:07 pm

            Honda jazz or city no power at mid and higher end. Only lower end is ok. FC wise saga is heavier with less advanced module (IAFM). Iriz got VVT but still heavier than city or jazz. But 18km/l is not a problem on highway . Can be achieved with right ways. Driving of course p1 wins hands down. It is more fun to drive than city or jazz

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1
    • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 3:11 pm

      Why would a torque converter make fuel economy worse? Do you even know how it works?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 3
      • Jeffrey Ng on Nov 20, 2015 at 5:19 pm

        So, how does it work then?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3
        • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:14 pm

          Whether you use multi-plate clutch packs, single dry clutch or a torque converter, all different types of engine-to-gearbox coupling mechanisms MUST introduce some form of frictional/mechanical lockup, and some form of controlled slip.

          For single-plate clutches, whether on manual or AMT gearboxes, you control the slip by half-clutching. For a multi-plate clutch pack (e.g. wet/dry DCTs, and CVTs with start-up clutches) you do that by varying the clutch pack pressure, which is basically half-clutching with a multi-plate setup. On a torque converter, slip is present by default due to the fluid coupling.

          Controlled slip conditions are necessary for crawling and for slow speeds, and the so-called “benchmark” is the torque converter creep which is smooth and progressive due to the fluid coupling.

          When the vehicle is moving fast, the priority changes to having as little slip as possible. A single-clutch setup basically just allows the clutch pressure plate to press the clutch disc against the flywheel for a direct frictional “lockup”. A multi-plate clutch setup will have the clutch pack cover pressed against the clutch pack with maximum force to get all the friction plates to “lock up”.

          A torque converter on the other hand depends on either rising fluid pressure within the turbine housing to press the torsion damper disc against the converter’s engine-facing plate for frictional lockup, or rely on external control (e.g. a separate hydraulic circuit) to press the torsion damper into frictional lockup.

          Efficiency depends on how soon lockup is initiated, and how fast shifts are completed to enable lockup to commence. But smoothness depends on how well those shift shocks can be hidden or dampened, and how well the coupling allows the transmission to “creep” in slow traffic. It’s always a compromise between the two.

          However, modern torque converter based planetary gear auto gearboxes and CVTs utilize early mechanical lockup and in some cases (particularly for high-torque applications) two torsion dampers in order to increase efficiency and minimize slip losses, and provide fuel economy advantages comparable to clutch-based couplings while being smoother at low speeds.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 0
          • camtakpro on Nov 24, 2015 at 9:15 am

            Torque converter also able to boosts torque output .

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2
    • hailthepurist on Nov 20, 2015 at 4:50 pm

      so there’s no point for cvt to have the converter, no more fuel efficiency..

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2
      • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:15 pm

        There are other reasons for having a torque converter. Do not confuse a torque converter with a planetary gearset although planetary gearset auto transmissions are almost synonymous with the term “torque converter”

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0
      • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:29 pm

        What do you mean by that? All regular CVTs that are in Nissan, Mitsubishi, etc cars use a torque converter to couple the CVT geartrain to the engine flywheel. What, then, should be the ideal coupling between a CVT geartrain and the engine?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
  • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 1:38 pm

    Either way, it should be great, as long as those start-up clutch based CVTs are eventually replaced. With 250Nm of torque capacity, perhaps the CFE’s leash can be loosened further. The CFE engine is capable of much higher than 136hp & 205Nm of torque, but the outputs are reduced due to the VT3’s 210Nm torque limit.

    If Proton implements either the Jatco CVT or Punch’s new VT5, the CFE engine can finally be deployed in its intended output of over 150hp and 240Nm of torque, comparable to other low-capacity turbocharged petrol engines.

    The VT5 is also quite likely to implement an auxiliary gearset in addition to the CVT, from the description of it having a wide ratio. It’s not efficient to increase the size of the pulleys to accomplish that, but it’s better to incorporate an auxiliary gearset in combination with a compact CVT setup to increase maximum torque capacity while broadening the ratio range at the same time

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 34 Thumb down 5
    • Penumbuk on Nov 20, 2015 at 2:40 pm

      Maybe the supply contract is 100 years, that’s why cannot change to other gearbox brand.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6
    • ayamxxx on Nov 20, 2015 at 2:51 pm

      If Proton implements either the Jatco CVT or Punch’s new VT5, the CFE engine can finally be deployed in its intended output of over 150hp and 240Nm of torque, comparable to other low-capacity turbocharged petrol engines.

      Dont think so, as the Supirma S 6 Speed Manual only used same 205Nm and 138hp.

      Given the sales trend by Proton model this days, 2015, dont think they gonna spend money modified the existing CFE/Turbo Engine anymore.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3
      • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 3:17 pm

        That’s only because they’re using the same ECU maps for all their cars for uniformity, so the manuals are using the same maps as the CVT cars. Some of the drag prep outfits that I know have taken the CFE engines to well over 300Nm with just semi-standalone piggybacks and increased boost pressure, so the engines are definitely capable of much higher outputs

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1
  • George Abdul on Nov 20, 2015 at 1:39 pm

    In term of business profit Proton will choose “Punch (cvt) Powertrain”… If Proton to move toward customers satisfaction and brand development and not “waste R&D funds” it should choose Jatco…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 28 Thumb down 7
    • driver on Nov 20, 2015 at 2:19 pm

      I partially agree with you. Taking into account Proton’s bad brand perception, a rational suggestion would be for Proton to go with Jatco. But of course, this all is subject to money.

      Perhaps Paultan and the team could give Proton a call and get any comments on this.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2
      • George Abdul on Nov 20, 2015 at 2:53 pm

        Good idea and thanks for the suggestion hope Paultan crew help us on this…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1
        • Theres a reason why Jatco is already in Proton’s compoound during Alami. All other exhibitors have been P1 vendors. So why is Jatco, which is not a P1 supplier, in their fair?
          What you see there, is already a foregone conlusion to the CVT they will use in future. Perhaps p1 will go for multi supply CVTs on their various models. Or perhaps after losing P1, Punch is now desperate and need to showcase more development

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2
  • Proton can become the scapegoat to try test the reliability for Punch Company.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 9
  • Penumbuk on Nov 20, 2015 at 1:52 pm

    If the gearbox is okay, maybe the engine itself is lousy drinking too much petrol like thirsty camel.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 7
  • ayamxxx on Nov 20, 2015 at 2:47 pm

    If I quick remember last time, the one Punch Designer proudly mention that their CVT with Clutch is More Efficient, More Capable to perform well compared with CVT that comes with Torque Converter.

    Cannot tolerates lots of complaint of their Punch CVT jerkiness now?

    Damn u Punch!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2
  • IrizX on Nov 20, 2015 at 3:00 pm

    Proton should use Jatco. It’s tried and tested and proven reliability. PUNCH has been screwing Proton long enough. It would be stupid to be their white rat for testing their new GB with their previous record.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2
  • cabaiperawit on Nov 20, 2015 at 3:08 pm

    either JATCO is willing to be very transparent and allow some information to be shared with PROTON so that in future PROTON can develop their own technology. i doubt JATCO can fulfill the requirement as you know Japan company wont allow knowledge transfer. perhaps PUNCH otherwise. knowledge sharing is possible for them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0
  • sepul on Nov 20, 2015 at 4:44 pm

    I honestly believe Punch is a great brand, their clutch based design is not a bad design per se, just that it is very delicate to operate (a la dual clutch automatics) so to fulfil market preference, they resorted to the tried and tested torque converter design and improve from there.

    Jatco or Punch is not a concern as long as fuel efficiency and reliability is ensured to the consumers.

    Tbh, Between the japs and european folks, the european are willing to share knowledge openly with other people, unlike the japs.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 5
    • DonkeyKong on Nov 20, 2015 at 6:38 pm

      The VT2 and VT3 are not bad designs. Mind you, the ones who designed and built it are proper engineers with a company that has a proven track record at building powertrain components, so it’s pretty stupid for any keyboard warrior to just hand-wave them aside and say that the gearboxes are lousy.

      The multi-plate clutch pack design of the VT2 and VT3 allows the gearbox to have lower mechanical losses and lesser hydraulic components than a regular torque converter based design. It has lower frictional slip at lockup, lower rotational losses, and higher mechanical efficiency. However, the challenge has always been the clutch adaptation program to simulate transmission creep, as well as the low maximum static torque that can be handled by the compact multi-plate clutch pack which resulted in them having a low torque ceiling and unable to function properly for steep hill starts.

      For a similar design in a larger footprint, a gearbox of that design would have worked much better. Unfortunately we’ve only known it from their application in Proton cars, in a compact footprint with less-than-smooth operation.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0
  • nabill (Member) on Nov 20, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Maybe p1 jumping ship to jatco made them realize ‘oh crap.,p1 is ditching our aweful cvts, lets make sting new’….
    Jus make a normal auto for heavens sake… Cvt with torque converter its like they are designing cvts to be like auto box.. So might as well spend the r&d money on a normal reliable dependable conventional auto n everyone will b happy…
    Although those cvts from Punch are pretty robust n reliable on protons… Bt thats the only good point i can give it…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1
  • Even you put a BNW gearbox into a Proton, it is no use. Proton is already sinking into the Pacific Ocean.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 16
  • darkermarker on Nov 20, 2015 at 9:04 pm

    Everything from Proton is just syoik sendiri.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 15
  • Aero (Member) on Nov 21, 2015 at 12:39 am

    So far, the Punch CVTs have been quite reliable and I’ve not heard of any quality problems (please correct me if I’m wrong). Most of the complaints have been about the jerkiness and unrefined, rough nature. If this new torque converting style VT5 CVT is as good as the comparable CVTs from Aisin, Jatco etc., I don’t see why not. I’m sure Punch’s royalties are not as high as the bigger Japanese companies, to them, Proton is just a push over. Punch actually values their partnership with Proton, it’s evident in how much they have trusted Proton to re-engineer the incompetent VT2 from the 2011 Saga FLX to the ‘okay-ish’ VT2+ in the 2014 Iriz, and soon the ‘much improved’ ‘VT2++’ for the upcoming 2016 Persona.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3
  • John Pellegrino on Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 am

    This article, and its accompanying comments, assume that all CVTs must rely on friction between two smooth surfaces. I disagree. A ‘workable non-friction’ design that meets all objectives (see Google site below) would certainly allay many negative concerns about CVTs in general. To get a more complete perspective on this point, go to Google “PTE April 2013 John Pellegrino” and click on the first two pages under the section marked ‘Departments’ Design specifics for such a design are available upon an email request.
    Your comments/questions are welcome.

    Regards, John Pellegrino 973-539-2932

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0
  • Sammy Loo on Nov 21, 2015 at 9:11 pm

    Aisin produces one of the best CVT in the world. Just look how smooth, responsive and fuel saving on the Altis.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0
  • jetco cvt had it own sets of problems, especially nissan which shows problem started to happen after 100k/km. complaints on unreliable litter the Internet from owners especially in the states

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
  • Mohamed abdallah elmorsy on Mar 30, 2023 at 4:31 am

    Are the cvt transmission in jac j7 is advanced technology .
    Compny say
    Advanced PUNCH CVT
    Transmistion Technology,
    providing smooth and comfort
    driving experience
    Is that true
    Thanks alot

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
 

Add a comment

required

required