NAP After-Effects: Volkswagen puts on hold Malaysia plans

Volkswagen AG has put a hold on it’s plans to introduce Volkswagen cars here through official channels in the Malaysian market. Back in February 2006, Volkswagen said it planned to introduce a total of 9 models here in Malaysia, beginning with low-end models like the Volkswagen Fox and the Volkswagen Polo. Down the pipeline will be more premium models like the Volkswagen New Beetle, the Volkswagen Golf GTI, the Volkswagen Jetta, the Volkswagen Passat and the Volkswagen Sharan MPV. These models are CBU models.

The new National Automotive Policy reduces import duties (from 15% to 5%) for CBU vehicles which come from countries in the ASEAN region. This means competing manufacturers like Toyota, General Motors Corp (we get Chevrolet-badged Daewoos), Isuzu Motors Ltd and Mitsubishi Motors will be able to offer more competitive prices for their CBU vehicles which come from ASEAN countries like Thailand.

This will make the models that Volkswagen originally planned to bring in uncompetitive, effectively killing them even before they start to be sold here. Volkswagen still has plans to assemble cars in Malaysia, as well as make Malaysia one of its regional hubs but there has to be some change in plans on how to achieve those targets. It recently launched its Malaysian headquarters in Wisma UOA Damansara and has invested RM42 million ringgit in Malaysia so far. It has also appointed AutoStadt Asia Sdn Bhd as the sole importer of Volkswagen cars in the country, is in discussions with Cycle and Carriage Bintang on distributorship, and has started talking to potential CKD assemblers.

Source

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Paul Tan

After dabbling for years in the IT industry, Paul Tan initially began this site as a general blog covering various topics of personal interest. With an increasing number of readers paying rapt attention to the motoring stories, one thing led to another and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

Comments

  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 6:57 am

    You see how NAP CarTaxLand draconian regime fail and deny the rakyat to have a choice and enjoy the best continental mass produce car? Suck and disgusting!

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 7:30 am

    Spent 42 million? Those people at VW who made this rash decision to invest such a huge amount of money before the NAP unfold will definitely kena T kow kow. I guess they are really stuck now, the only sensible thing to do is of course get a local assembler bcos CBU VW cannot sell in terms of competitiveness. Look like "horse die get down to walk".

    Riding on conspiracy theory, the NAP was drafted with revenge in mind, VW pull out from tie-up with P1, so the author of NAP purposely came up with rules that kill players such as VW whom doesn't have a strong footing yet want to get a slice of the cake in this region.

    Imagine the number of cars need to be sold in order to recoup the 42 million initial investment, those VW people must be so blind that they don't see how people here want the game of the car industry to be played.

    If I am the boss of VW, I think I would ask those people who made that decision to jump from the top floor of Wisma UOA Damansara. This place doesn't welcome foreign car manufacturers and also doesn't want its people to enjoy the basic rights to own a decent car at reasonable price.

    VW, you are really stuck.

    I really impressed with Passat 2.0 FSI of which the I guess the reasonable price should be about 100,000. That's the price I am willing to pay for it.

    But due to the @#$%^&* NAP, that's MI IV. (Hint : Tom Cruise)

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  • tbcheese (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 8:47 am

    Quote NeedGoodCar

    "If I am the boss of VW, I think I would ask those people who made that decision to jump from the top floor of Wisma UOA Damansara."

    Bernd Pischetstrieder or however his name is spelled can't do that. He just made the decision to increase production of the Bugatti Veyron and they're losing USD$4 million on each one sold. So if anyone is to jump he has to go first hehe.

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  • tbcheese (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 8:49 am

    Busy day at your blog Paul

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  • kendo (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 4:39 pm

    VW,

    together with EU, GM

    should bring the M'sia car IDOIT POLICY to

    WTO, and scrooooooooo it!

    Europe will not buy "malaysia-proton cars,

    just like

    would U buy

    IRAN, Indonesia make cars???!!!

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  • shaif (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 5:12 pm

    NAP, what is good for the rakyat, car price reduce, interest rate increase, back to square one. The only party happy, the capitalist bankers.

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 5:38 pm

    I think VW forget our government wants this country become auto hub. A HUB only!!! . That doesn’t mean they can sell their cars in the country. Can sell, but look la at our tax regime. Hahaha, how stupid, what make our country so good for auto hub?? Cheap land? Cheap labor? Corruption free? Thai and Indo is way ahead as auto hub… now we import cars from them…

    Just forget it la VW.. You have to wait until 2010.. For now keep la your money.. But I really miss your turbo diesel 1.3.. See, they can produce 1.3 turbo diesel already.. may be one day they’ll have 1.0 turbo diesel engines….

    ps: Biodiesel is the fuel of the future….

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  • notorpkcuf (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 5:46 pm

    NeedGoodCar, your comments are as naive a kampung skoolboy. You think multi billion dollar corporations i.e VW, GM, DC, Toyota, etc. plan things on an ad-hoc basis? ala most local companies as in "let's wait and see how the NAP comes out then we decide what to do" ?

    They have "LONG TERM PLANS"! I know those are big words for many GLCs to understand but let's put it simply this way. You have a 10 year plan, you of course hope for the best (from the NAP), on the hindsight you KNOW what are the worst-case-scenarios. Thus, you plan for CKDs (i.e DC, VW) or even plan to relocate CKD facilities to achieve economies of scale (i.e. Toyota) as you EXPECT the gahmen mught decide to T kaw you.

    BUT STILL you have to be bold take chances, imagine if Henry Ford listened to a Malaysian (if he knew any or if we aready existed ) who tells him "Henly, lu mai siaw lah, who wants to buy a motor powered wheelbarrel? Let other ppl try first lah, if work then you try lor". We all wouldn't be bi#ching bout Plotong power windows but instead how Plotong horse saddles itches your crotch. (btw I know he didn't really invent the car, he was just the first to mass produce it)

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  • honda_driver (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 6:31 pm

    in this case, i'll have to agree with needgoodcar on certain points. I do believe VW has been caught out this time round. Their ability to be price competitive here has also taken a turn for the worse due to the lack of APs. i agree with need good car, they need to tie up with an assembler to help them sort out their price mess.

    multibillion dollar companies dont do things on an adhoc basis, but they do make mistakes. and VW has not been doing too well of late.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 6:53 pm

    honda_driver – "multibillion dollar companies dont do things on an adhoc basis, but they do make mistakes. and VW has not been doing too well of late."

    Joe Ooi – VW don't make mistakes but P1 and NAP purposely screw them up!

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  • goingberserk (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 7:47 pm

    Hmmmm. Now.. How to attact FDI ?. esp car manufacturers or assemblers ?

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 09, 2006 at 8:01 pm

    Huh, FDI is not important to P1 in auto sector, what matter and important to them is how to protect and maintain this "sucking machine – NAP" and nobody can come in their territory! "Consumers is belong to P1" and a place to suck more blood, not for them to show have social responsibility!

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  • honda_driver (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 1:07 am

    joe.. You think VW is not doing well in Malaysia only? why dont you go find out for yourself before you make a comment like that. its obvious you didnt find out the facts before talking. same goes with your "copper" fuel tank.

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  • superman (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 1:20 am

    Many car companies aren't doing well these days. well most of the big players , except Toyota , are losing money. through various "misadventures" such as over spending per model, cost of engineering, low volume output etc.

    VW as a global player has many more outlets to lose said money. factories/plants round the world, regional offices, you name it..

    A RM42million loss is only roughly a USD$10million in the global sense when big multinationals lose 5, 10 times those figures yearly………….

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  • kendo (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 1:31 am

    axxxx G policy,

    thus 3rd class kampong car for rakyats..

    we re gonna change that soon.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 1:38 am

    honda_driver – Just to clarify with you, I never say VW doing well worldwide, but from what I read from many news that VW just like GM and Ford, facing their own set of problems. What I means is VW plan in Malaysia is screw up when the "alliance" talk with P1 is not materialize, which among other the intention of VW is to assemble their car at P1 Tg Malim, thus enjoy the benefits of CKD. Their plan to bring in 9 models currently have to be shelve as CBU is not price competitive under NAP! So it is very fair statement that

    "VW don’t make mistakes but P1 and NAP purposely screw them up!"

    Regarding "copper fuel tank", I mentioned very clearly that it is came from P1 "whristle blower" and need somebody to clarify whether it is true? I hope you get what I mean.

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  • tbcheese (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 3:46 am

    Quoting from another site:

    "Wolfsburg — first quarter profits were 327 million euros, up from 70 million euros a year ago. "

    They're not exactly running in the red. Just less profits than expected.

    What's this copper fuel tank thing?

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 6:59 am

    tbcheese – last time info from P1 "whristle blower" about changing from current "copper fuel tank" to non ferrous (nylon type) fuel tank for certain P1 models as part of cost cutting! not Value Engineering term it as cost saving.

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 7:45 am

    i was fuming when someone with a name when read in reverse order means "to copulate with a bolehland car maker" commented my views are naive as a village schoolboy.

    I am the type of person who don't take criticism, I only accept words of compliments, praises as well as concurrence. Like things said by honda_driver about my view, for that, truly deserve to drive a honda.

    1st of all, i am not a schoolboy but a learned management guru for businesses of all sizes. Ha ha ha….

    Jokes aside, I think what is the use of a "long term plan" if "short term objectives" are not met or coupled with many "short term mistakes". If VW keeps on making short term mistakes in the name of achieving long term goals, then VW will gulung tikar before they ever able to achieve what they aspire.

    "To copulate with a bolehland car maker", this schoolboy here is now putting money into your pocket.

    Prior to the financial crisis in 1997, many businesses were obsessed with your so-called "long-term business plan" of 5 to 10 years but did't place enough emphasis on achieving short-term objectives, how wrong they were, because in modern days, we witness events that seem very remote but have devastating impact, such as the 911 which could happen NOW, TOMORROW, in fact, ANYTIME. We even witness unprecedented volatilities in the financial markets which is unimaginable in the days of Henry Ford. How many of us can predict that oil price can reach 75 a barrel in 2005 back in 2003 ?

    Business that are not prepared for this type of events will be caught and their mere survival threatened.

    Business is risking their survival if they makes many short-term mistakes in the pursuit of your so-called long term plan, unles this busines has unlimited resources to waste.

    Resources must be planned carefully so that the business is at least resilient enough to withstand any shocks that could happen anytime.

    Let's analyse VW's situation, long term plan is "to gain a foothold in this region". First of all, 42 million alredy down the drain, do we see VW cars being sold here now via VW directly not Wald? The answer is a big NO. They can't sell CBU because price not competitive enough besides the AP issue.

    Mind you, selling CKD also not easy, because VW is not as well known as other European brands in Bolehland, Furthermore, continental cars are not popular choice amongst the mass general public here due to availability of parts and pricing. Try to ask people on the street, how many appreciate VW which also procedures good quality cars ? How much more does VW need to spend in their marketing campaign ? How does Jetta wrest if from waja/civic/sentra/altis/accent/spectra….Passat from Accord/Cefiro/Camry/407/Mazda6/Sonata/Rover75/Octavia?/….,Phaeton from Audi ?/BMW/Mercedes/Lexus/…As for Golf, how many can afford even a CKD which is just a bigger version of Myvi/Savvy/Picanto…in terms of design? Don't talk about engine lah..

    Talking to a potential local assembler? Bargaining power uncertain because we don't know whether it's VW or the potential local assembler the more desperate party in this situation. How long the talking process going to take ? How many local assemblers are there can do the job for VW? Looks to me that VW has no option but to get a local assembler if they ever want to justify the 42 million, this apparently dent VW's bargaining power.

    I still stand firm on waiting for the NAP to unfold then decide on what to do, making a bold decision / taking chances as per what you said akin to gambling with company's resources. A rational business man can't do that, in business we take risk, only calculated risk, which in this case is not.

    If Bolehland taking their own sweet time in annoucing the NAP then you should know for sure what kind of mentality their administrator have with regards to their auto industry and their plan with P1. You shouldn't even commit so early..

    ONE THING FOR SURE, if VW had not spent the 42 million, they would b in a very comfortable position now. If I am the Boss of VW and had not committed anything significant, when I read the NAP, I would say "Scru you, go and F with your own NAP and potect your own P1, you people lose, we make good cars, btw, I am flying back to Deutschland, FIFA 2006".

    I have a dream, Passat 2.0 FSI with 36 (Out of the total 120) features for about 100,000 on the road with insurance, salica also drops now….

    So, don play play with NeedGoodCar, the best management guru in Beijing, Moscow, Paris, London and New York. He He He….Have a good day ahead, folks….for the time being…I shall adjourn to my dreamland where I will be driving a Passat 2.0 FSI with 120 features with my family……..Z Z Z

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 7:52 am

    Oh yeah, I would like to express my appreciation to my secretary who typed the above message and you who spent sometime reading it, hope you like it…maybe a bit long winded…

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  • nissan130Y (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 8:14 am

    u guys are funny.. but informative. Keep up this peaceful environment. Hope to hear more strories from within.. by the way i think vw will have a hard time here.. unless they assemble their car here and sell it cheap… which i don't think so…. cheers

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  • tbcheese (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 8:42 am

    hmm never realised it was made of copper. always thought it was sheet metal. we learn a new thing everyday.

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  • notorpkcuf (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 9:42 am

    NeedGoodCar,

    I extend my hand of apology, as I sounded rash in my haste to reply your first comment that seemed to jump to conclusions from the get go. I concur with most of the points that you have highlighted in your secretary-typed-counter-attack, and praise your poise to go to great length to defend your standpoint.

    I would just like to highlight something that you might have overlooked. The framework for the NAP was announced October 2005 and basically reiterated what was to conspire later in the actual NAP (actually the joke of it was that the “framework” was 17 pages but the actual NAP was only 10 pages, go figure). This being said, most industry players already had an idea of what the gahmen was moving towards. It was even announced that the actual NAP would be out by April 2006, truth be said I was surprised when they announced the NAP on 22 March 2006, a gahmen project completed BEFORE the deadline!!!??? Unheard of!!!

    The fact of the matter was NOBODY in the industry was surprised when they announced the new duty structure. The wildcard was actually the publication of the gazetted docket prices (CIF) to the public. That was also not much of a problem except that the prices listed in there was ridiculous, and there it was the feared spanner in their works. Checks with officials led some to believe that the prices were obtained from Singapore, but correspondence with Singaporean counterparts of various makes proved it to be false.

    Now it can only be concluded that the prices were pulled out of one of the official’s anal orifice, and having a poor balanced diet, some of the tougher pieces of excrements were not successfully removed before they began to decipher the document. This will explain why a Toyota Harrier can be defined as both a “Car” and a “SUV/4WD” at the same time (page 13 of Customs released prices) or how a Harrier 3.0 has only 2,362 c.c.??? These things may seem mundane but when calculating duties we could be talking of tens of thousands in difference.

    I seem to have skewed from my point but to reiterate, everyone saw this coming and many have made plans in view of this “poolicy”. Many are still keeping their secret weapon under wraps but some have already been revealed. i.e. VW having planned for CKDs ever since discussions with P1, Sime-Darby’s CKD-ing of the Getz by June 2006 and Toyota’s rationalization of models assembled in Thailand (Altis, Camry, Fortuner, RAV4) and Malaysia (Vios, Avanza, Innova, Hilux).

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  • swarty (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 3:01 pm

    Guys! When european car price going down, will the spare part goes down too?

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 3:11 pm

    No ill feeling intended, at the end of the day, what we want is the basic rights to enjoy decent car at reasonable price. But with that No Auto Policy and P1 around, it remain a HONDA….

    That secreatary is wife too….ha ha ha…must give her credit if not…

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 4:14 pm

    NeedGoodCar – wah are you lucky at home having wife cum secretary. Me at home become "baby sitter and general worker" to my wife helping up house chorus, he. he, he, ……… but I am not complaint.

    Anyway, that piece of typing is very informative.

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  • goingberserk (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 6:59 pm

    NeedGoodCar, Joe.. good points raised. ! But VW is looking beyond the Malaysian market. I believed it is looking at the whole asian markets as well . No doubt competitors from Japanese and other continential manufacturers or assemblers are better priced then most VW models, but there are segment of the population that VW will be targeting especially niche market instead of the general one which they already LOST even before the word GO !. RM 42m invested by VW will not be written down as most of the investment will be on capital assets. However it is yet to be seen as to what level of volume of sales is VW looking. If VW is looking for a strong footing.. then they have to engaged in the PRICE WAR !. At least we are be served with better choices of car !!!.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 7:46 pm

    Actually VW is a viable and suitable long term partner for P1 given their objective of want to expand their market share in this region. But P1 resistant to majority share own by VW and use its Tg. Malim plant to assemble VW cars for this region market resulted in botched deal. What a good opportunity and P1 miss a big boat. VW already demonstrate to the market in the case of it take over of Eastern European car maker – the manufacturer never "lost" its national identity.

    Just in the case of MG Rover, during 1990s, Rover was 20% own by Honda and 80% by British Aerospace (if not mistaken), later this stake was sold to BMW rather than offer to Honda (I am not sure whether it is "race identity" play a role). At that time, Honda as mass car maker is a suitable partner with few model in pipeline. Since then, Honda pull out and BMW also pull out later. What happen to MG Rover is close shop last year. If P1 still want to maintain "national identity" and "local majority shareholder", then it future may happen like MG Rover or worst!

    There are many manufacturer keen to invest in our country given our 1st world infrastructure with generally good command of English. But NAP and P1 is a stumbling block, which compare to Thailand, they are well ahead.

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  • biggie (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 8:49 pm

    joe,

    they can operate better in thailand as they do not have to pay taxes as much as M'sia. its the same tool for FDI attraction use by M'sia for semicon industries. We are burnt now becos of the factor.

    i think u need to read more on wat VW do to Skoda. It is not a national thing anymore and loses its identity to the home country ppl but fares better at export market utilising the cheap labor the home country provide.

    and more homework for you on the MG Rover case.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 9:06 pm

    biggie – noted your comment on do more homework on MG Rover and Skoda but I still maintain that P1 can't survive in long term if still maintain current ownership structure and "national car status" identity! Go for "strategic alliance" and "multi-national" identity good for P1, tax payers, G, car consumers, etc. More auto sector FDI come into our country, more opportunity for everybody in auto sector regardless of they are consumers, vendors, suppliers, except P1 may not think so.

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 10, 2006 at 11:20 pm

    This is the problem, if we let poton kena telan bulat-bulat by foreign company, we might end up like Skoda… lost national identity is nothing, but worst we may have no power to control the car prices, & even without the taxes, we still might have to buy pricey cars.. Furthermore Malaysian are used to expensive cars.. VW saw this potential, that’s why they want total control of poton.. I think poton should stay ours, but they need to improve, and make a successful joint venture like perodua.. And of course, Gov shouldn't apply crazy & mad taxes!!!.. sikit-sikit okaylah.. 50% – 20 % enough la… 0% much better, let poton compete free market!

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 1:01 am

    motorhead – don't worry on "worst we may have no power to control the car prices". In free economiic mechanism, mass produce cars (with exception to vintage or luxury cars) are goods which is subjected to normal supply-demand curve. This is not an industry which is near monopoly – "cartel pricing" to be happen is very optimistic to say will be very "remote". This is because on worldwide basis – the supply is over demand – there is surplus in productions! Only G and NAP control the "supply" factor. Somemore in open policy, this sector is dog-eat-dog yet fiercely contested market, just like electronic, electrical , computer or retail biz – all cut throat biz and competition is very fierce – consumer have the widest choice and benefit the lowest price.

    For P1, on logo only look fierce with tiger head, but dare not and cannot fight in the level playing field!

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  • honda_driver (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 3:19 am

    Joe, VW still made a mistake, because they failed to take into account the extra different conditions in the automotive sector in malaysia. Sure, the govt. messed them up, which is a pity for them and shouldn't have happened.

    VW made profits still, but fell way short of their expected earnings.

    They have also been in a slow profit decline since 2002. Their CEO, ferdinand piech just got a 6 year extension on his contract last week from the VW board. The unions were calling for his resignation, because he was about to cut 20,000 jobs and close some factories to improve VW's bottom line.

    Joe, as for the copper fuel tank, my point is, if you can't verify info you heard from a source, in this case, your whistle blower whom you claimed is credible, i think you shouldn't post it up. Where in the world can you find a car using a copper fuel tank? Obviously, whistle blower is feeding you inaccurate info.

    its true that we have freedom of speech, blah blah, but we have to be responsible with what we say as well, which is sadly lacking in many of the people who come to paul's blog.

    look at tbcheese, he now believes that copper is used for car fuel tanks.

    "tbcheese said,

    May 10, 2006 @ 12:42 am

    hmm never realised it was made of copper. always thought it was sheet metal. we learn a new thing everyday. "

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 3:44 am

    Yeah Joe, you are rite also… I know about the free market mechanism, but we have to look at other factor also, the Market Trend. I doubt la, even if poton is dead, other players will reduce their price drastically.. For instance you see aa… CBU cars get the biggest reduction in tax, up to 75%, but you can not see significant price change for the CBU cars now… And the funniest, some of them increased the price instead… check la Suzuki swift new prices… nonsense la.. And I found out many of us still do not really understand (or reluctant to know, since they are very rich) about ED tax and etc.. Especially women! They just keep buying and think a SWIFT for 90k is cheap! This is market trend!

    With proton around now, it sets a standard of prices to the market, and the other auto makers are forced to reduce their profit margin to keep their prices competitive.. And in the other way they would maximise their profit in the spare parts sales. That’s why genuine spare parts for HONDA, TOYOTA and including PERODUA are not cheap!!!.. That’s why I still think proton should stay as ours…. And they should go back on track, produce good and affordable cars to the people…

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 5:18 am

    honda_driver – noted your comment on "copper fuel tank" info. Next time satisfy myself the info available is credible before posted on this website! Otherwise may confuse other and may "dented" my reputation as constructive commentator!

    motorhead – agree with your comment on Suzuki Swift pricing and manipulation adopt by some distributor. Agreed also Proton they should go back on track, produce good and affordable cars to the people…

    So how about if P1 can't change to better, then let "natural justice take it course" lol, cannot ask rakyat to take burden anymore because another 20 years if lucky become datok to my grand childrens, if not bye bye to this world – "permanent sleeping"!

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 7:19 am

    Folks,

    The entire auto industry and P1 in Bolehland can be represented by mathematical notation as follows:

    P1 = Stupid + Stupid +Stupid

    NAP = Stupid + Stupid +Stupid

    P1 + NAP = Stupid to the power of Stupid

    VW + P1 = Wise + Wise + Wise only if VW > P1

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 7:34 am

    "This is the problem, if we let poton kena telan bulat-bulat by foreign company, we might end up like Skoda… lost national identity is nothing, but …..0% much better, let poton compete free market!"

    and

    "With proton around now, it sets a standard of prices to the market, and the other auto makers are forced to reduce their profit margin to keep their prices competitive.."- Sorry!!! Have to disagree….

    "And in the other way they would maximise their profit in the spare parts sales. That’s why genuine spare parts for HONDA, TOYOTA and including PERODUA are not cheap!!!.. "- Hard to agree….

    "That’s why I still think proton should stay as ours…. And they should go back on track, produce good and affordable cars to the people… " – They should have done that 20 years ago…no now…

    "i think u need to read more on wat VW do to Skoda. It is not a national thing anymore and loses its identity to the home country ppl but fares better at export market utilising the cheap labor the home country provide." – In the strictest economic sense, have to disagree…

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  • tbcheese (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 12:18 pm

    honda_driver copper fuel tanks aside, the current VW CEO is Dr Bernd Pischetstrieder. Mr Piech left a while ago and it was him who left the Bugatti Veyron mess for Pischetstrider to sort out.

    Apparently the Veyron was a concept car at a show and Piech blew his trap about it going to have a big ass engine and 1000 bhp. The following 4 or 5 years was filled with pain and tears of VW engineers.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 3:50 pm

    NeedGoodCar – P1 = Stupid + Stupid +Stupid

    I got "marketing catch phrase" for P1 – MTOTW – "Milo Tin On The Wheel"

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 4:20 pm

    Toyota Way is LBWB – "Local Best, World Best"

    Use System Approach, "Proton Way" is

    Input – P1

    Conversion – Stupid + Stupid +Stupid

    Output – MTOTW – “Milo Tin On The Wheel”

    NeedGoodCar – So I can concluded your mathematical notation is applicable for P1? Therefore, they don't need to do quality campaign lol if we have this kind of conclusion!

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 6:59 pm

    Needgoodcar,

    “With proton around now, it sets a standard of prices to the market, and the other auto makers are forced to reduce their profit margin to keep their prices competitive..”- Sorry!!! Have to disagree….

    – With tax 75% Honda city price around 80k only, how much do you think they can earn from it as net profit?

    “And in the other way they would maximise their profit in the spare parts sales. That’s why genuine spare parts for HONDA, TOYOTA and including

    PERODUA are not cheap!!!.. “- Hard to agree….

    – Hard to agree??.. pls ask around your pomen & spare part shops! If you are a rich person or like potong parts, nevermind la…

    “That’s why I still think proton should stay as ours…. And they should go back on track, produce good and affordable cars to the people… ” – They should have done that 20 years ago…no now…

    – Did u notice "GO BACK ON TRACK"???.. people got lost, we show the way la…

    P1 > VW = GOOD!

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  • biggie (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 9:12 pm

    motorhead

    Hopefully my identity is secure here but from a very reliable source Honda makes RM7500 per car for City (excluding operation ++). Compare to Proton at RM3750 per car for Gen2.

    joe

    Milo tin on wheel correctly decribe a Iswara, Kancil and Kelisa

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 10:12 pm

    Biggie…

    RM3750 per car for gen2??.. how about that guys?? Can make sense aa..?? Wah, then gen2 is really value for money la.. Can consider buy one, since i like gen2 design….RM7500 for honda is reasonable, eventhough I think barely enough for the Japs HONDA.. they have latest technology & wide diversity of products…

    But biggie.. RM3750 for gen2 really disturbs my mind la.. Too little.. hard to believe la.. if like this better P1 change bisnes.. start selling kapchai or buy stake in Food chain bisneses…. Anyone can comfirm this??

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  • biggie (Member) on May 11, 2006 at 11:59 pm

    motorhead,

    how much per kapchai? much less ler. Thats why no kapcai dealer can exist with selling kapcai only. They need to do repairs etc..etc…

    P1 do not make much per Gen2 esp if you calculate the amount of R&D capital put in. The next version of Gen2 will give increase the profit margin a bit more, as the cost of making new platform will not be there. But it will not go much more then RM7K like Honda. Thats why P1 need to look for volume.

    It translate well into a report by the Economics that on average (considering all markets) a car mfr will only get USD 1500 per car depending on the age of the model. The older model will give higher returns then new model.

    Thus Iswara give much higer returns then Gen2. This is why P1 still making Iswara.

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 12:49 am

    At least kapchai easier to sell.. ok I got your point.. but I still don’t believe its RM3750 only.. bcoz after discount, I still remember Tun M said the price can go lower, so can go down several thousands some more, without affecting the profit.. But its ok.. I will check this matter… whoa, but I believe in term of built, waja, gen2 and savvy are quite value for money.. they are quite solid, just lack of technical reliability & design…. Sexy models can pose and sit on Savvy’s front hud…

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 5:31 am

    motohead – recent price reduction is due to policy changes (NAP) rather than competition. Therefore profit margin shall be the same. What TM said is I believe this can happen if further reduction in tax rather than at the expanse of margin. Of course current promotion by P1 to clear its 2005 stock and boost 2006 sales with "promotion and incentive" may eat into their profits.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 7:08 am

    biggie – Milo tin on wheel correctly decribe a Iswara, Kancil and Kelisa

    So, my Waja is exclude from "Milo Tin On The Wheel" – give and take, OK lah no objection! But my first car, Iswara, also OK lah because sold it more than 3 years lol! But sooner my wife Kancil has to sale off based on your comment! Indeed it will very soon.

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  • kanasai (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 7:09 am

    My parents drive waja auto 2002… this car having problem with changing gears and up to now, no solution to the problem. sometimes, the car also will just mati engine for no practical reason.. cause us lots of money to keep up reparing it.

    My bro bought his Gen2 begining 2005. Door damm hard to open and now we open till the door broken down and this cause us again money.

    Now i m thinking should i buy savvy 2006 ….

    Yet motorhead say waja, gen2 and savvy is value for money… i doubt

    My father get rid of this stupid waja by buying Vios 2005… till now.. superd quality.. then oni now i knw wut quality means

    By the way, im driving Wira auto … 3 of my power windows will never works after countless repaired !!!

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 7:22 am

    kanasai – I believe your parents Waja is first batch. My Waja should be 2nd batch no problems on gears and pray hard engine never die halfway journey! But irritating probloems like fail power window and absorber kong slightly more than one year. My mechanic introduced to me Honda Accord recond (kereta potong) absorber, cost almost same with local new absorber (RM 120 per piece) fix at rear for more than 18 months still working well (I believe this absorber at least 3 years when fix to my car).

    Last time my Iswara used for 7 years and 1 year +- I had to change absorber one time. Power window, "standard problems", change few time the motor as well, other problems like aircond, headlight, etc also encountered. Iswara really "Milo Tin On The Wheel" as I drove at PLUS 100KM plus, experience like seat inside plane want to take-off!

    Next car, if can't afford new, I will consider 2nd car – perhaps "Innova" – disadvantage MPV gas guzling!

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 7:52 am

    Well, well, well, want to challenge me liao, nowadays, want to disagree also need to explain long wide if not people may misunderstand you. OK, here I come (literally)…

    P1 can never set a standard in terms of pricing to the market for other auto makers to follows.

    We need to understand what is the definition of “standard”. Folks, you may want to find out the main difference between a “FUTURES” contract versus a “FORWARD” contract in the financial derivative market.

    First of all, in a competitive market, the equilibrium prices of any goods are determined by the market forces, i.e. demand and supply, unless you go and disturb it, which we call “intervention”, e.g. think of the price of sugar. This is very important, if you understand this, you may not need to read beyond this point. But, it will be at your own risk for you may miss out on something interesting later on.

    Wah, I am giving free economy lessons.

    A “P1 Gaja 1.6A” is selling for 60,000, let’s make this a “standard”, since you want this anyway. Will Auto Babaria price its 318i based on this “standard”? You tell me. OK, you may argue, “P1 Gaja 1.6A” is not in the same league as 318i !!! So? Pitfall no.1.

    OKlah, choose a car that is almost similar to “P1 Gaja 1.6A”, got meh? Let’s take Yonda Shitty 1.5A, assumes all cost included for this car is about 60,000. Wahliao, how do sell because the “standard” is 60,000. Zero or worst negative profit loh…MMM…you may be right. But, WAIT, let me continue, if I am Yonda’s boss, I will price it 80,000 or 100,000 or even higher for a Yonda Shitty 1.5A to maximize my profit margin if there is demand for it. The concept of “Perceived Value” is relevant here, you “standard” cannot pakai lah. So? Pitfall no.2.

    Here come pitfall no.3, OKlah, say there is no more P1, P1 non existent liao, how we all wish, OK, not all. I am the boss of VW and have a car called Jetta 1.6A to sell, no P1 liao so cannot price the car because there is no standard to refer, anyone here please help me to price my car? Need I say more?

    Need pitfall no.4? enough lah, 4 is not a very auspicious number, so I stop now. Phewwww….

    In short:

    P1 can never be the standard simply because they have got no standard. We know very well the criteria to become a “standard”. Say, you and I play Kwan Beng Hong, I lost 2 – 21 (that’s the standard), so will you be happy if you lose to him 5 – 21? If you answer is an affirmative yes, then I do not know what to say anymore…

    Other auto makers will not price their cars based on your so-called “standard” because their cars differs from P1’s. Tak serupa, tarak sama, bu yi yang. My friend.

    In a competitive environment, the price of any product is subject to market forces. It’s only non market forces come in to intervene and distort the equilibrium prices, e.g. NAP.

    Folks, will you be paying 100,000 for a Yonda Shitty 1.5A?

    Yes, if you can’t live without a Yonda Shitty even though there are other cars out there OR you can’t live without a car and there is no other cars but Yonda Shitty or You simply think 150,000 is the fair price….

    I hope this point is “kaw tim”, until next time…

    Wah, so long, type myself this time, second point coming soon.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 8:27 am

    NeedGoodCar – whyyou explain so long. Simple "equilibrium" (not equation ah) as shown below is enough: –

    Cost + mark up = price

    Under free market ah, not NAP

    Cost subject to fix and variable (sometime, wastetage, miscellaneous and risk factor in).

    So my presentation is your "Executive Summary" lol!

    Mark up subject to market forces of demand and supply – competition.

    Price can be "market rate", "dumping price", "clear stock price", "lelong price", "second hand price", "black market price", "barter price", "installment price (normally charge interest), "credit price", "cash price", "discount price", etc, etc………….

    "EXORBITANT, PROHIBITIVE, CRAZY OR PROFITEERING PRICE – SUCK NAP"

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 8:35 am

    So NeedGoodCar do you agree or have any comment on my argument on

    Input = Conversion = output?

    P1 = Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! = "Milo Tin On The Wheel"?

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  • z350 (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 8:45 am

    very interesting NeedGoodCar… lol

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 4:04 pm

    Joe, it's not that i want to write long long, i want to present it in layman terms, bcos according to my boss, no body understand if i present like u did, my boss also another p1 type.

    Input = Conversion = output, Correct

    but in the context of P1,

    Input = Conversion = output : GIGO

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 4:53 pm

    NeedGoodCar – Noted and next time layman talk, but not P1 talk cock! he.he. he. ha, ha,………..

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 7:17 pm

    Someone said

    “That’s why I still think proton should stay as ours…. And they should go back on track, produce good and affordable cars to the people… ”

    NeedGoodCar said

    "They should have done that 20 years ago…no now…"

    Someone said again

    “ Did u notice “GO BACK ON TRACK”???.. people got lost, we show the way la…

    P1 > VW = GOOD!"

    I will be dealing with this one soon, let me take my kids to Jalan jalan first…Happy Wesak Day…a meaningful day to be with your family…btw…need to attend a wedding dinner tonite. WBB (will be back)

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 9:19 pm

    In Europe's Holyland, they have Da Vinci Code and Dan Brown try to decode it!

    In Malaysia's Bolehland, we have P1's Code. See who among us can "decode" it and show whether both "consistent or contradictory"!

    NeedGoodCar: VW + P1 = Wise + Wise + Wise only if VW > P1

    Motorhead: P1 > VW = GOOD!

    BTW, I will also try to decode it by using layman language lol!

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 10:02 pm

    “That’s why I still think proton should stay as ours”

    You want it? Take it lah, since you like it so much.

    “And they should go back on track, produce good and affordable cars to the people… + Did u notice “GO BACK ON TRACK”???.. people got lost, we show the way la…”

    In fact, I am a little bit lost here because I want to travel to the moon and come back within 24 hours, maybe I should produce some kind of space ship that is capable of traveling safe and fast enough to achieve my goal. Cakap senang buat susah.

    Let’s get real here, if you got lost 10 or maybe 5 years ago, then you might still stand a chance and have time to go back on track. But this is now, 2006 of which the business models as well as the competitive environment for auto makers are completely different from that of 10 or maybe 5 years ago, look at the mergers, takeovers, restructurings, etc amongst the major auto makers during these recent years. Time is money, opportunities wait for no body.

    Fine, you may produce good and affordable cars to the people and go back on track, but how?

    “Quality” hasn’t been around with you all these years, you need to get “quality” and “it” comes with a price. This is not the time to address issues such as “quality”, instead, you should have focus on competing in the market, e.g. new and innovative cars.

    “Affordable”, simple, what you need to do is to price it low enough within the reach of the mass of the general public. Mazda 6 at 45,000 C.I.F? Amazing, car such quality can sell that low.

    In order to be able to compete efficiently and effectively, P1 must be able to reduce its cost of production via economy of scale even if all the thorny issues within well addressed.

    P1 may be dreaming of achieving economy of scale but the reality is:

    1. Domestic demand is not big enough. It helps little even if NAP does not allow other auto makers to sell their cars here. Unless, you and I, in fact, everybody, start buying 1 or better still, more P1 cars every year. Continue to suffer lah for the sake of having P1 around.

    2. There are many competitors out there. Mind you, which do you choose between a P1 Gaja 1.6A for 60,000 or Yonda Shitty 1.5A for 65,000 if every car makers are allowed to compete fairly without that stupid NAP.

    3. Cannot export because no Kwailo want!!! Ok, let’s try other countries, your Gaja can compete with staff like Shitty meh? Ask your NAP to protect you lah outside.

    I do not know how long the transition in P1 will take? I am really lost too on how P1 can go back on track now, give them more time? Continue to let our blood sucked till dry? Come on, do it on your ownlah, stop imposing all these gila tax. You P1 can do whatever you want so long that you let us have the basic rights to choose the car we all want. Not “can see but cannot have”.

    You should have let “Who’sWhacking” do whatever they want with you lah, P1. This statement is for entertainment only. I won’t comment on it even if you don’t agree.

    In short, to go back on track, you need to do it fast, chances are you need a stupid good partner, someone smart enough to give you their very best and let you have all the control you want.

    Yeah arh? Haven't touch on the part of "brand buiding" , but enough for now lah. In fact, so many deficiencies with P1 internally. People say, ROME is not built in one DAY, I say

    "P1 ruins itself since day ONE".

    P1, P1, P1 you are really LOST. If not for NAP, you will be GONE!!! And I do not have to write long long.

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 10:10 pm

    Unless unexpected events happen, the code still read as "P1 = Gone".

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 10:48 pm

    Needgoodcar,

    Thx for your long explanation of yours, appreciate your effort… but too bad I think they can not contribute anything to our national auto industries.. hahaha…

    Here’s a short one for you…

    20 years for car industry is nothing!!!… In fact P1 not bad for an infant in this industry.. Don’t compare la with other big auto players craps, how long they are in the industry oredi?? Some of them are dead…. Give la what ever comparison of yours…. It is not relevant.. else where may be.. but not in bolehland…..

    Ps: this doesn’t mean I am NAP supporter.. just trying to be realistic since we are living in Bolehland…. Can you dig that?

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 10:51 pm

    Noted….Not in the same frequency…Point taken.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 11:07 pm

    Finally, our Malaysian Bolehland P1 code is revealed: –

    NeedGoodCar: VW + P1 = Wise + Wise + Wise only if VW > P1

    The above code shall refer to "fair and equitable" scenario under free market.

    Motorhead: P1 > VW = GOOD!

    The above code is refer to today reality in our CarTaxLand!

    Verdict: The Bolehland codes as above-mentioned are nothing to do with “consistent or contradictory” but rather "Noted….Not in the same frequency…Point taken".

    So, both of you and I also happy! ha, ha, ha, ha, ………….

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  • NeedGoodCar (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 11:14 pm

    Yeah, people playing in FIFA 2006, these people have been playing for so long, we aint that bad because we are still new to the game, we continue to play at the narrow lane behind our backyard loh…why bother to take part in those qualifying competitions?

    Reality? Since we do not have wings, I guess we need to be realistic that we can never expext to be flying like birds? You tell me.

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 12, 2006 at 11:37 pm

    Patient… Be patient my friend. Sometimes all we need is a little bit patients… Same oso, if I ask all of us to boycott all cars… boycott our car industries, until NAP is dead. I think its not going to happen also, becoz others will keep buying cars, and keep the AP kings fat (cronies).. Better wait and see or go ahead buy P1&P2&NAZA now or buy others with cut throat taxes (patriotic contribution)…

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 13, 2006 at 4:30 am

    Code 1: VW + P1 = Wise + Wise + Wise only if VW > P1

    Applicable after 2010 (changes subject to further NAP extension)

    Code 2: P1 > VW = GOOD!

    Applicable presently up to 2010 (changes subject to further NAP extension)

    Back to topic, VW invest 42 Million is based on their expectation on Code 1, but and at the end, P1 back up by NAP want to maintain Code 2, then the proposed alliance failed.

    Conclusion: We can hypothesize that P1 negotiation with so many manufacturers (past, present and future) will doom to fill if both parties have this 2 mutual exclusive codes!

    honda_driver – based on the above codes, VW do not make mistake in their RM 42 million investment, but rather both parties is "not in same frequency".

    So Code 1 and Code 2 applicability is in relation to different timeline! One for current and one for future! P1 still can use Code 1 with NAP backup for its present short term survival. If P1 want to look for future long term survival, then they have to learn to embrace Code 1.

    Fiction – Wah, look like 3 of us decode Bolehland P1's code. If we are consultant and charge VW 2% consultancy fee on their RM 42 million investment, that equivalent to RM 840K for professional advice in order for VW to avoid to make this kind of decision. But not forgoten our "landlord" Paul, so we willing to share this booty and divide equally. With RM 210 K we can and have the "Power to Choose" type of car! He, He, He, …… just joking!

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 13, 2006 at 4:39 am

    Please take notes on the following: –

    "…….2 mutual exclusive codes!" shall be read as "…… 2 MUTUALLY EXCLUSION codes!"

    " P1 still can use Code 1 with NAP ………….." shall be read as P1 still can use Code 2 with NAP …….."

    Trust the above is in order.

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 13, 2006 at 7:58 am

    Actually the provision of NAP is suppose to protect and promote local auto industry growth. However, presently we witness NAP become a "MORAL HAZARD" as it raises the likelihood of complacent and incompetent on the part of P1. This is because NAP reduces the P1 initiative to take necessary measures to improve and able to compete in open market. So far as NAP is there, P1 have no initiative to improve knowing very well and take it for granted that G will extend assitant and protection. Worst, we witness G use NAP as a weapon to kill of any potential competition from foreign car maker, VW current RM 42 million predicament is no exception.

    As a results, the rakyat have to bear the brunt and continuing the suffering in paying relatively high price for P1 low quality yet unsafe car. For imported cars, the price is exorbitant! sucking blood till last drop ………………

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  • motorhead (Member) on May 13, 2006 at 5:27 pm

    Hahaha.. another Da Vinci Ooi Code…. Joe, you can write a novel about it.. hahaha…

    "For imported cars, the price is exorbitant! sucking blood till last drop …"

    Let me make it sounds softer a bit…

    For imported cars, the price is exorbitant! sucking blood till last drop and can make patriotic contribution some more… hahaha!!!

    ps: Still happy living in bolehland.. since sayur and food still very cheap in pasar malam (in my area la..)

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 13, 2006 at 8:50 pm

    This one totally agree: –

    ps: Still happy living in bolehland.. since sayur and food still very cheap in pasar malam (in my area la..)

    If P1 diversified into selling sayur and food, with NAP bakup, then all prices will be "Starbuck" standard.

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  • biggie (Member) on May 16, 2006 at 12:02 am

    joe

    i still thinks you never read NAP

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  • Joe Ooi (Member) on May 16, 2006 at 1:30 am

    Reading since published – in PDF form, with minimal "literature review" except emphasize on tax structure. Last objective (6th) is to give customers a value for money and safe car but look at our market now rebadge a lot of old models couple with kereta potong issue.

    My opinion is NAP is tax driven rather than consumer spending policy to stimulate auto sector growth in our country. We will always lose out in auto sector as any economic policy (or even IMF advise) is emphasize on monetary policy (adjustment of interest rate), country balance of payments (external/international trades), government fiscal policy (development budget)and consumer spending. NAP is "MORAL HAZARD" and will be self defeating policy. There are many manipulation and abuse out of this policy. If we adopt open market, P1, P2 and Naza likely won't do any rebadge of old model! there is no AP issue, under declare car price, etc, etc, etc. What is big deal with NAP, except rakyat have to make "patriotic contribution"!

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